(L) Itai no wa Iya nano de Bougyoryoku ni Kyokufuri Shitai to Omoimasu.

[SeaDoor]

Despite the game design discussion, I am enjoying just watching this unfold. To me, it's at its core cute girls doing cute things but with boss battles.
Very pleasant watch.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I also understand that games get unfun when they punish you for playing within their rules in a creative way and doing well.

Basically you are revealing more about yourself, or maybe those in the game communities you have been in. Maybe it is reality, but if that's so, understand that it is a very ugly reality you are portraying, and maybe the fact that this community is a little better than your community is probably the thing you are least willing to accept.

It is kind of like a hypothetical anime depicting a really civilized discussion board and some veteran of discussion boards claiming the in-show mods aren't doing their job and there is no way the protagonist could have survived. His essays are too long and people auto-hate on essays with over maybe 300 characters in them, so it is absolutely unrealistic for him not to be banned. And no, you can't use even an avatar name - you can be attacked just for not being "Anonymous" like the rest of them.

(In case you are unaware, there ARE indeed message boards like the above.)

it's seen's hard to speak with basically you are saying "let her cheat at free she is totally right in cheat "because she "is playing cleaver with games rules" which the same term normally for cheating from a game dev, she is not "play by the rules" she is breaking the rules in away the desenvolvedores did not expectated and are "clueless about what to really do.

"its from a player perspercitve but from a developer", i'm actually already started in going that in develope my own indie game and already learned a lot from schools and others sources like "dev forums"i'm currently using unreal engine" and if you really know what "means "balance" which means you just ignore" because "i don't give a shit toward it and as long it's funny for me break the game i don't give a crap about it, it's this sort of mentality which break many "games", and because of that we have things like EA (eletronic arts) which love to make unfinished, high expensive games, and loot boxes because money is all is matter for companies like that and as long they have players "accepting crap games" we get crap games, in a mmo which means massive multiplayer online, you can't just "look at your own face" and spit in the communty because "only your fun matter", but let's see if things get funny when you are the "only person still playing the game because everyone give and get tired to be one shoted by you because don't matte how hard they try, how strong they get they just can beat you, because you become the game god due to a lot or broken mechanics and let's see how much time the game will still open with "few players" because the majority give up, from a "comercial perspective" your logic is terrible, mmos are made not "for a single person" but for a community and the devs want the max peoples playing as they can not just like 3 or 10 because everone give in play this mess having a unbalance game is not health for any game even the "pay to win" games must have even a small chance for somoeone else get strong without need to "pay to wing" by his hard work, not just rolling steam the game even the pay to wins stuffs can't "be that strong" to totally break both pvp and pve, if you do that you are going to fail this is one of the rules, at last my teachers told me about "game developer", this author or is totally making for of how work a game dev or don't have any clue how things works, and just doing whatever he want.

maple is making kirito from SAOL looks like a "noob" when comes to "exploit mechanics" because when he had to learn very hard how to do things by trying and "error" she just getting everything without any fail, if she keep on that at one point she will be able to beat even the gms and they wil be unable to do anything against her, because got so much buffed and bugged which at one point the only way to beat her would be a 'server shutdown and reset" and hope "behind the codes they don't did any idiot thing which would make her immune to that reset, which would means start the game back from the 0, because of how messed he is.

if this game was a "single player game" then ok, let's him have some fun and mess around he will be play around without does trouble to others players.

but in a "MMO" you can't stick with a 'single player" cause, you as a dev must think as what is better the "so hated by you community".

i can say 100% or sure which none game dev school would teach you to do "that things" you want let a single player mess with any other player playing this game because "is fun for him" this is not really the "idea of what is fun" in a mmo or any other multplayer game, is about the competitivity or co-op and things like that, if you want "play as god" go play a single player game.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

if this game was a "single player game" then ok, let's him have some fun and mess around he will be play around without does trouble to others players.

but in a "MMO" you can't stick with a 'single player" cause, you as a dev must think as what is better the "so hated by you community".

You just unraveled your own theory on this, and why the fictional community in NWO is something you claim can't be real or "lazy writing".

As I pointed out earlier. Maple is an unique anomaly. Her actions do not change the data in any substantial way.

If I was theoretically a project manager on NWO, and was given this presentation, then I would have copy and pasted massive amounts of internal data like devs sometimes do when the "community" says one thing, but the whole point of a project manager's job is to ignore it, with impunity.

If I as a theoretical project manager, pull up data, I would know
1: Balancing Maple would give minimal results (There's only 1 maple type in NWO)
2: It would not change the game for the better (There are very few players if any with access to her skills set)
3: Wasting company resources on someone's ego
4: Decrease potential growth by delaying updates, diverting content creation resources, and ignoring other higher priority problems.

Maple is not the talk of the community. Payne is. Down to the fact they talk about how an unstoppable monster he is in pvp and pve, and just everything. After all he has ranked 1st in every event so far, clear content the fastest, and is everywhere.

So you are wrong on point :PR. The anime talks about maple because maple is the protagonist, but Payne is the NWO hero. He was made to be that kind of character, the foil to Maple in this Arc.

Only people who seen maple really talks about maple, and Maple is pretty much a ghost in NWO world-lore-wise.

Patching Maples doesn't change anything in NWO. There is no maple meta, and Maple isn't affecting the world in NWO. Patching maple is means spending a lot of money that 90% of the player base will never benefit from. You don't fix one player out of a million, just so that 1 player stands out less.

Finally the claim that the author is doing bad writing, is also false.

There is a very very real reason the Author put Maple in 3rd place. #1 is OP, #2 is call the "underdog" spot, #3 is call the "Mob character spot". That's the spot that makes it to the public, but is a background character to fill out the screen. Maple's design is exactly this subtle joke. She is so stupidly broken, but rather then conquest, she wastes it all on enjoying NWO with her friends, ultimately never bothered by outside drama.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

Despite the game design discussion, I am enjoying just watching this unfold. To me, it's at its core cute girls doing cute things but with boss battles.
Very pleasant watch.

same. I'm pretty much enjoying what the show is giving. Not really interested in game design stuff or whatever other issues realated to it. This feels like a cgdct allowing me to relive online game days.

__________________

on another thing. Hoping good figures of Maple and Sally would be released. Will add them to my collection if can afford them.

Have not bought any Hatsune Miku figure the past month. To save funds for possible buying of figures from this show. The anime just has to impress me up to the end, then it can has my money.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

Despite the game design discussion, I am enjoying just watching this unfold. To me, it's at its core cute girls doing cute things but with boss battles.
Very pleasant watch.

This is what the show is at its core, but IMO much of the discussion comes from the fact that this time the x in "cute girls doing x" is MMOs, which some of us can relate to based on personal experience more than say, camping, going to Antarctica or being a member of a light music club while eating oishi kekii.

Similarities in that regard could've generated some discussion but not to this extent if not for the MMO related plot points clashing with some of my (and maybe other people's) experiences with MMOs, and so here we are.

That doesn't mean I don't like the story though, seeing Maple destroy everything they throw at her has been fun!

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

on another thing. Hoping good figures of Maple and Sally would be released. Will add them to my collection if can afford them.

Have not bought any Hatsune Miku figure the past month. To save funds for possible buying of figures from this show. The anime just has to impress me up to the end, then it can has my money.

I've seen some serious complaints about why Maple wasn't one of those included in the nendoroid announcements from last wonfes

[Liddo-kun]

Nendos are cute. A friend of mine collects them.

Although if I'm going to spend. I would go for the full size figs. Since the anime is currently popular, maybe Good Smile Company will make one for Maple and Sally -- and I'm hoping they won't charge too much if they do make the figures.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by kukuru

You just unraveled your own theory on this, and why the fictional community in NWO is something you claim can't be real or "lazy writing".

As I pointed out earlier. Maple is an unique anomaly. Her actions do not change the data in any substantial way.

If I was theoretically a project manager on NWO, and was given this presentation, then I would have copy and pasted massive amounts of internal data like devs sometimes do when the "community" says one thing, but the whole point of a project manager's job is to ignore it, with impunity.

If I as a theoretical project manager, pull up data, I would know
1: Balancing Maple would give minimal results (There's only 1 maple type in NWO)
2: It would not change the game for the better (There are very few players if any with access to her skills set)
3: Wasting company resources on someone's ego
4: Decrease potential growth by delaying updates, diverting content creation resources, and ignoring other higher priority problems.

Maple is not the talk of the community. Payne is. Down to the fact they talk about how an unstoppable monster he is in pvp and pve, and just everything. After all he has ranked 1st in every event so far, clear content the fastest, and is everywhere.

So you are wrong on point :PR. The anime talks about maple because maple is the protagonist, but Payne is the NWO hero. He was made to be that kind of character, the foil to Maple in this Arc.

Only people who seen maple really talks about maple, and Maple is pretty much a ghost in NWO world-lore-wise.

Patching Maples doesn't change anything in NWO. There is no maple meta, and Maple isn't affecting the world in NWO. Patching maple is means spending a lot of money that 90% of the player base will never benefit from. You don't fix one player out of a million, just so that 1 player stands out less.

Finally the claim that the author is doing bad writing, is also false.

There is a very very real reason the Author put Maple in 3rd place. #1 is OP, #2 is call the "underdog" spot, #3 is call the "Mob character spot". That's the spot that makes it to the public, but is a background character to fill out the screen. Maple's design is exactly this subtle joke. She is so stupidly broken, but rather then conquest, she wastes it all on enjoying NWO with her friends, ultimately never bothered by outside drama.

man the only reason they are not "fixing/balancing/nerfing her is because few peoples know about her, but in the moment she start to get the spotlight she will e, because remember in the beginner on the first event when she was literally obliterating everyone in the pvp with her one shot skills peoples started to complain then the "gms" go to fix it, because at this point they didin't know about her, now they know and are monitoring her, and they know how broken she is, but because "only a small minority know about her they are "pretending" nothing is happen,

this how we can break your logic, the gms jobs is to balance the game when they se things like "maple",you know the "old say" you need a single bad apple to destroy the whole plantation". and this is her case because even if she is unique, she still breaking the game, destroying bosses which she not was supposed to beat doing things against the game "supposed rules" but they just ignoring it".

no matter how i look to it unless maybe you work for EA you saying which the gms are doing "fine" show how you really don't know how game design work.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

this how we can break your logic, the gms jobs is to balance the game when they se things like "maple",you know the "old say" you need a single bad apple to destroy the whole plantation". and this is her case because even if she is unique, she still breaking the game, destroying bosses which she not was supposed to beat doing things against the game "supposed rules" but they just ignoring it"

Wait a second. Why is she NOT supposed to beat the boss? The devs positively laid down each rule she can use (this is a game, any function is positively inserted by a dev) and she used them to beat the bosses. She didn't change the rules, she didn't add some rules in her favor, she didn't remove some limitations with hacking tools - that's what most people would consider a cheat.

If you want to say that devs must change the game at all costs so everyone "knows their place" and no newbie can be allowed to succeed too much, go ahead, but at least be honest about it and don't get who is right and who is wrong confused, and don't expand the definition of "cheating".

And whether you want to do this even from a self-interested, mercenary perspective depends on your crowd. To continue my story of a certain message board, the problem escalated to insults and the mods banned me and not the people insulting me. In essence, they made the decision you argue the mods here should have made. Shaft the individual - who cares if he isn't really in the wrong, we need to keep things "fun" and "ordered" and "balanced" for the majority. And the gang there was pretty supportive of this, so at least from a commercial perspective they made the right choice.

But if that had been a different crowd, one that cares more about the principles involved, that might be the moment when things go completely against the moderators or the hecklers. And that's what I suspect will happen if they shafted Maple. Because Maple is actually more popular than the anime implies (and Payne being the one everyone talks about is a creation of the anime -

Spoiler for From Book 1 up to the first half of Book 3:

the devs don't even look at Payne and Mii in the novel)

, and they know they've already been given one big concession after the Hydra massacre incident.

All that really happens, it seems, when people find out that Maple did something is that more gold goes into the shops, as people try to buy stuff to emulate her. She is a net gain to the business.

So tell me, Blueknight, which crowd do you want to be associated with, or which one do you want to read about. A bunch of narrowminded jerks who pressure the mods into attacking the innocent success, mods that run scared of such jerks they move before they even squeak, or a bunch of good players who see it more either as a mascot or as something they want to emulate? Or at least players that are smart enough to know that ultimately all they are doing in screaming for nerfs any time someone getting ahead is getting in the long run a less interesting game.

Because ultimately, what often happens when devs try to pander to the masses is an inferior game in the long run.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Spoiler for novel spoiler:

- the devs don't even look at Payne and Mii in the novel)

dude, can we at least put novel spoilers under spoiler tags please?

have a bit of consideration for those who don't want to be spoiled.

[Magewolf]

I am enjoying the show a lot myself. But that does not stop me from seeing what looks like less than optimal game management.

However I will say that the game seems to be set up as a "physics" based sandbox(which is why Maple could make herself a flying mount) and looking at it from that perspective and philosophy it makes more sense why the developers are going with a light hand. They seemed to be banking on emergent game play and exploration to sale this VR game so looking "nerf" happy could hurt retention and sales. And they act like they are new to actually running a game which usually either leads to cracking down too hard or being afraid to do anything. So I think there are in world reasons for the developers making the mistakes they are but that does not stop them from being mistakes.

Actually thinking about it the closest current major MMO to this game is EVE online. And that game certainly shows a different side of human nature.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wait a second. Why is she NOT supposed to beat the boss? The devs positively laid down each rule she can use (this is a game, any function is positively inserted by a dev) and she used them to beat the bosses. She didn't change the rules, she didn't add some rules in her favor, she didn't remove some limitations with hacking tools - that's what most people would consider a cheat.

If you want to say that devs must change the game at all costs so everyone "knows their place" and no newbie can be allowed to succeed too much, go ahead, but at least be honest about it and don't get who is right and who is wrong confused, and don't expand the definition of "cheating".

And whether you want to do this even from a self-interested, mercenary perspective depends on your crowd. To continue my story of a certain message board, the problem escalated to insults and the mods banned me and not the people insulting me. In essence, they made the decision you argue the mods here should have made. Shaft the individual - who cares if he isn't really in the wrong, we need to keep things "fun" and "ordered" and "balanced" for the majority. And the gang there was pretty supportive of this, so at least from a commercial perspective they made the right choice.

But if that had been a different crowd, one that cares more about the principles involved, that might be the moment when things go completely against the moderators or the hecklers. And that's what I suspect will happen if they shafted Maple. Because Maple is actually more popular than the anime implies (and Payne being the one everyone talks about is a creation of the anime -

Spoiler for From Book 1 up to the first half of Book 3:

the devs don't even look at Payne and Mii in the novel)

, and they know they've already been given one big concession after the Hydra massacre incident.

All that really happens, it seems, when people find out that Maple did something is that more gold goes into the shops, as people try to buy stuff to emulate her. She is a net gain to the business.

So tell me, Blueknight, which crowd do you want to be associated with, or which one do you want to read about. A bunch of narrowminded jerks who pressure the mods into attacking the innocent success, mods that run scared of such jerks they move before they even squeak, or a bunch of good players who see it more either as a mascot or as something they want to emulate? Or at least players that are smart enough to know that ultimately all they are doing in screaming for nerfs any time someone getting ahead is getting in the long run a less interesting game.

Because ultimately, what often happens when devs try to pander to the masses is an inferior game in the long run.

raid bosses are made to be "beat by a raid group" not being soloed by a "tank alone" and even when this happe is "one lost case here and there" not basically every boss, maple is broken enough to beat any boss and any player in this game effortless, because she is immune to almost any negative effect, like poison, acid and others things, even the gms told which one of the bosses she put "down alone" was supposed to be unbeatable with even with a large group, let's say "alone", and the fact which this monster was holding "some stuffs" which where not supposed to be giving to the players at last yet because they where stilll "testing" and the gms allowed her having then just show how wrong they are acting, if you beat a boss with a "tank" class which was supposed to be "almost unbeatable, specially if you are much lower level than the monster which is her case it show something is really wrong here and some mechanics are broken, this show how much the game have break mechanics and the gms are willing to accept that "break" mechanics for "unknow reasons, which in a real world they where not supposed to allow.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Nendos are cute. A friend of mine collects them.

Although if I'm going to spend. I would go for the full size figs. Since the anime is currently popular, maybe Good Smile Company will make one for Maple and Sally -- and I'm hoping they won't charge too much if they do make the figures.

Before we get warned for being offtopic.. Yeah, kinda weird that nobody announced a scale fig of her, maybe somebody will do one even if it isn't gsc.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

raid bosses are made to be "beat by a raid group" not being soloed by a "tank alone" and even when this happe is "one lost case here and there" not basically every boss, maple is broken enough to beat any boss and any player in this game effortless, because she is immune to almost any negative effect, like poison, acid and others things, even the gms told which one of the bosses she put "down alone" was supposed to be unbeatable with even with a large group, let's say "alone", and the fact which this monster was holding "some stuffs" which where not supposed to be giving to the players at last yet because they where stilll "testing" and the gms allowed her having then just show how wrong they are acting, if you beat a boss with a "tank" class which was supposed to be "almost unbeatable, specially if you are much lower level than the monster which is her case it show something is really wrong here and some mechanics are broken, this show how much the game have break mechanics and the gms are willing to accept that "break" mechanics for "unknow reasons, which in a real world they where not supposed to allow.

Even with Silverwing (which was commented to being all sorts of nasty mechanically, but that's all) there has been no indication that any of the 'bosses' were supposed to be all that hard at a fundamental level. The whole premise that defeating certain bosses solo (upon first encounter/engagement) rewards unique loot suggests that whilst certain bosses are mechanically challenging, that's all they are, rather than something scaled to the extent that you 'must' go in with a group.

Do we get in-game commentary about each of Maple's shenanigans? Yes, but that in and of itself doesn't come across in any more meaningful way than having to deal with a problem child and the shenanigans they keep getting up to (and is not in and of itself a reliable indicator of boss difficulty).

Given how only certain classes seem to be able to level certain skills (see Twins and their various skills from Hydra slaying, even though Maple was there as well) theoretically anyone should be able to walk the path of Maple (if they so desired). As of the latest episode everyone can get a flying mount as well (though it costs and arm and a leg to do so) and you even see Maple pondering (during the quest chain for loving sacrifice) about the possible forks in the quest and alternative ways it could play out (giving every indication that other players could also take on and complete the same quest, if they'd just explore enough to find them).

The abundance of certain skills that 'double stat, penalize others' would very much suggest that maxing certain stats is completely intentional and expected. If it became (wide) public knowledge as to how to obtain those skills you'd end up with min-maxers who (example: double strength) would get their other stats to a certain level without penalty, then pick up the double-stat skill and go all in from there (reaping all the benefits with no downsides). It doesn't really matter in the Twins case (due to being all in on strength anyway) but given the unlock conditions it seems perfectly normal to assume some random player in the future (who hasn't gone all in and thus unlocked a bunch of balanced stats) is going to clear the same conditions and then unlock the double strength, penalty other skill (or other corresponding skills).


Given that (with the exception of unique 1-time loot) everything Maple has done could be replicated by anyone/everyone willing to put in the effort it hardly seems fair to claim Maple is game breaking in any way. She might exist outside expectations of the 'norm' but she's still very much 'mass-producible', if people wanted to put in the effort.


Everything Maple has thus far accomplished (the core of her character and what makes her Maple) could be achieved by any random solo player willing to put in the effort (and potentially a little more effort if they need to source an alternative: e.g. flying turtle = expensive flying machine).


At 'worst', Maple makes very creative use of game mechanics (much like speed-runners do in pretty much any game, especially stuff like BotW with pseudo-physics).

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by frodonk

Before we get warned for being offtopic.. Yeah, kinda weird that nobody announced a scale fig of her, maybe somebody will do one even if it isn't gsc.

it's pretty safe to assume someone will do it. Given how popular this anime is right now. The only issue is will it be affordable? I can afford something like 50-100 dollars for each, but probably not more than that.

and it's not off-topic talking about merchandise as long as it's from bofuri. For example, Madoka has merchandise thread in it's sub-forum. Bofuri does not have a sub-forum of it's own.. instead, it's all condensed into one general discussion thread, so we can talk about figures and other items related to the anime here.
______________________

Twins

Spoiler for official art:

Group

Spoiler for fanart:

[Twi]

Well, the Group Fanart looks deceptively epic. Don't really care about the cute-girls doing cute things so much as the MMO aspects, so I can see the narrative bending over backwards for Maple if I don't justify it by the fact that these developers are not the best. But ultimately it's really not worth a huge discussion over that fact because the story's stakes aren't high enough to merit it.

It's just a casual time.

[The Green One]

People are just way too serious about the MMORPG aspects of the game in my opinion.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

it's pretty safe to assume someone will do it. Given how popular this anime is right now. The only issue is will it be affordable? I can afford something like 50-100 dollars for each, but probably not more than that.

and it's not off-topic talking about merchandise as long as it's from bofuri. For example, Madoka has merchandise thread in it's sub-forum. Bofuri does not have a sub-forum of it's own.. instead, it's all condensed into one general discussion thread, so we can talk about figures and other items related to the anime here.

oh ok.

there was a lack of announced bofuri figs though, probably at that time (until now?) they didn't know this was going to get this popular.

[Liddo-kun]

they probably thought, this would be another 12 episode anime that would make a little money, and only a few people would watch. Maple proved them wrong.

one of the comments on youtube said it reached rank 36 in Trending. I don't know how trending in youtube works, so not sure if rank 36 is an achievement or not.

[frodonk]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

they probably thought, this would be another 12 episode anime that would make a little money, and only a few people would watch. Maple proved them wrong.

one of the comments on youtube said it reached rank 36 in Trending. I don't know how trending in youtube works, so not sure if rank 36 is an achievement or not.

I didn't even know you could stream anime legally on youtube

[Liddo-kun]

the guy who does it is probably either not caught yet, or the staff are intentionally turning a blind eye to it as it helps with further spreading the popularity?