Umineko FanFiction Discussion

[immblueversion]

You know the thing about "Redacted"? While it certainly does look awesome and I'm looking forward to whatever the finished product is, well...to be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure what it is, other than that it's a fanfic about a fanfic about what happened on Rokkenjima, or something along those lines. As far as I'm concerned, part of it is set in 1996, but now Renall is saying something about it being "contemporary" (i.e., set between 2000 and 2010). Is that the setting for Redacted, or this new short story that's pictured above?

In fact, this brings me to another point relating to the short story. If I've read the above post right, this new story is set in America, and the characters shown in the story are completely different from those in Umineko (at least, that's how I see the portraits "not jiving to the people I remember" to mean). Apparently this story is supposed to take place in the early 2000s and not "Redacted," but I still can't say for sure.

There's another thing that confuses me: at the beginning of that preview video, we see Eva and Hideyoshi, or at least characters who resemble them (I'm just gonna call them that), and they open a door. In the next scene, I initially pictured Eva and Hideyoshi dressing up for some costume party (after all, the characters are acting like the loving couple they tend to be) before revealing their portraits to be those of...

Spoiler for ...in case of a plot twist...:

...Erika and Battler. What a tweest.

This may sound like a stupid question, but are they actually Eva in Hideyoshi in costume, or are they entirely different people altogether? Because the latter seems a lot more likely.

Also, what's the title of this short story, anyway? Is it "Depicted: Varying Degrees of Cleverness," "This Summer Comes," "A Night Out In California," or something entirely different, if it even has a title at this point?

I just feel totally lost; in fact, I think all this description of the project is making it seem more confusing for me. Of course, this confusion is not exactly bad, per se. On the contrary, it makes me anticipate things even more.

[AuraTwilight]

You know the thing about "Redacted"? While it certainly does look awesome and I'm looking forward to whatever the finished product is, well...to be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure what it is, other than that it's a fanfic about a fanfic about what happened on Rokkenjima, or something along those lines. As far as I'm concerned, part of it is set in 1996, but now Renall is saying something about it being "contemporary" (i.e., set between 2000 and 2010). Is that the setting for Redacted, or this new short story that's pictured above?

He's trying to keep it a secret. What we can say is that there's a serial killer who's doing "repeat killings" in 1996, involving the murders of some Witch Hunters by someone purporting to be Beatrice. As a result, this new event is getting addressed in one of the latest Forgeries.

The "contemporary setting" thing is for the side story I'm helping him with. Its it's own thing.

This may sound like a stupid question, but are they actually Eva in Hideyoshi in costume, or are they entirely different people altogether? Because the latter seems a lot more likely.

Everyone is in costume. The Battler and Erika we see are some American kids playing "Battler and Erika". It's a sort of Murder Mystery Dinner some Witch Hunters are holding.

Also, what's the title of this short story, anyway? Is it "Depicted: Varying Degrees of Cleverness," "This Summer Comes," "A Night Out In California," or something entirely different, if it even has a title at this point?

We don't know yet. A Night Out in California works for now.

[Renall]

Right, let me see if I can clear that up.

Redaction of the Golden Witch (this is its official title; Witch Hunters Abroad is merely the name of the blog) is a story set in three places:

• The Meta-World and 1986 gameboard, between ep5 and ep6, as Battler comes to terms with the events of End and prepares for the events of Dawn. He and Virgilia go over a gameboard that she's created and some stuff happens. Among other things, the story was going to explain him picking up the sorcerer cloak and some changes to his attitude and preparations. These are the chapters marked 1-3.
• A story set in "the world after," something akin to Ange's 1998, but set two years before in 1996. This story concerns a group of Witch Hunters, college students from America, making a pilgrimage of sorts to Rokkenjima and an incident that happened there which would later be attributed to the Golden Witch. These are the chapters marked A-C.
• A framing story, which I was mostly using in blog posts, that only barely appears in the story itself. This is set sometime in the future, when is not stated. This part concerns an individual who believes that he has found evidence in the form of a discarded forgery that was released shortly after the 1996 incident which proves that the 1996 events were caused by a human culprit who managed to pin everything on Beatrice and escape justice. The forgery, which is implied to be the 1986 segments in some fashion, is his "evidence," and the 1996 segments are a sort of "fantasy version" of the events leading up to the crime. The resolution of his claims is not stated, and the obvious assumption is that no one has followed up on them to bring the culprit to answer... yet. Assuming there is a culprit, or that there was a 1996 incident, or that there was a post-1996 forgery, and he's not just making the whole thing up and/or is the culprit himself.

So if this makes sense to you, it basically works like this:

Rokkenjima Incident (1986) ["R-Prime"] -> Second Rokkenjima Incident (1996) [Ch. A-C] -> Mysterious Forgery Released (1996?) [Ch. 1-3] -> Researcher Publishes Info on 1996 (2006?) -> New Short Story (2009?)

Meanwhile on the Meta-World level, it looks like this:

End -> ? -> Redaction [Meta & Ch. 1-3] -> ? -> Dawn

Chapters A-C, that is 1996, do not factor into Battler's Meta-World shenanigans at all, and Battler's Meta-World stuff is not in the researcher's publication detailing his allegations about 1996. However, the two narratives must be woven together to actually understand who the 1996 culprit is, since I didn't intend to show the reader a page that has a name on it (not that the name of a fictional character no one's ever heard of would be all that impactful if you didn't know what made them tick anyway). This fact should obviously make the role of Andromalius important, as the demon appears in both the 1996 narrative (which also functions as his backstory) and the 1986 and Meta-World narratives, which for him appear to be happening in the chronological order of the story.

So yes, it's kind of complicated. The weaving together isn't actually the hard part, to me, it's actually getting the individual 1986 and 1996 sections to work properly as separate things. I may need to go back to the drawing board with a few folks I know around here and see what I can salvage.

The new story is, generally speaking, much simpler: Everyone you see represented by the sprite of an original character is just a person fulfilling that character's role. Most of them are in fact in costume, so to speak; for example, the Eva and Hideyoshi seen at the start are people dressed as them, Erika and Battler are characters dressed like Erika and Battler, and so forth. The idea is that people come to the party "in-character," and part of the point of the story is to contrast how badly these characters represent the people they're portraying.

As for Beatrice... she's a wild card. She must be a person pretending to be Beatrice, right? Except that role is not normally filled at the dinner, which caters to more anti-fantasy guests. So the question is, who is she? This is a question "Kinzo" fails to ask in the intro, and that will be a problem going forward in the story because not knowing her identity means not knowing what it is she really wants. You know... assuming she isn't the real Beatrice.

The characters do all have real names, I just didn't reveal any of them in the introduction. It's a little less confusing once their names and personalities are allowed to shine through, even though they're wearing the "faces" of the original Ushiromiya family, servants, and guests. "Erika," for example, is a shy and eminently polite young woman who is incredibly poorly-suited to portray an intellectual rapist. The goal of the story isn't for her to be Erika; it's for her to try to be Erika and fail because she is herself. There's more, but of course I can't say.

And the story does have a title. I haven't told anyone what it is, not even Scruffy AuraTwilight. It's not that important though.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Renall

The characters do all have real names, I just didn't reveal any of them in the introduction. It's a little less confusing once their names and personalities are allowed to shine through, even though they're wearing the "faces" of the original Ushiromiya family, servants, and guests. "Erika," for example, is a shy and eminently polite young woman who is incredibly poorly-suited to portray an intellectual rapist. The goal of the story isn't for her to be Erika; it's for her to try to be Erika and fail because she is herself. There's more, but of course I can't say.

I'll take it that "Shannon" is rather, shall we say, despicable compared to the original if those pictures are to be believed. It also seems that "Battler" and "Erika" are a couple, and apparently quite the close pair. But I think this story may succeed in making me view Erika, or at least someone who looks like her, in a new light, kind of like how the webcomic "Darths & Droids" actually makes Jar Jar Binks not only a likable character, but one of the best ones in the story. In fact, it's the only place where you'll see another character genuinely call Jar Jar a genius. And in context, it's believable.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by immblueversion

I'll take it that "Shannon" is quite, shall we say, despicable compared to the original, or so to speak.

I wouldn't say she's despicable so much as... she just don't give a-

Spoiler for What Shannon doesn't give (language):

Note that many of these characters were designed to be an intentional contrast and this is part of what Aura and I were going for. Shannon is a foul-mouthed slacker, Erika is moe, Rosa is a yaoi fanatic, etc. Many of them are quite terrible at portraying the characters they're supposed to be. Hideyoshi hasn't even actually read any of the forgeries, not that those would help anyone get a good sense of what kind of person Hideyoshi was, am I right people?

EDIT: And yes, there's really no shame in attempting to be Erika Furudo and failing gloriously at it. "Erika" is actually one of the strongest characters in the story and I really like how she's turned out a lot, though you can't see her really shine as more than a shy violet type until much later in the story than I have scripted right now.

[immblueversion]

Wait, did "Kanon" (or Manny, as he seems to be called) just call "Shannon" a dude? Or is that just a figure of speech...?

[WitchOfDoubt]

I think I've gotten somewhere on the riddle!

Spoiler for My progress:

After "surpassing human limitations" with a screen grabber, I reached the message screen. Looking for the differences between lines gives 323B.

Looking up the Unicode character 323B gives us the character for "school", "knowledge", or "learning". Here we go:

http://www.fileformat.info/info/unic...323b/index.htm

Right track?

Edit:

Spoiler for Drat:

"(arcana)" and "arcana" don't work, nor does "+10", Beatrice's knowledge bonus in arcana.

[Renall]

Shannon is female. Manny/Kanon calls people "dude" because he is a teenage boy from California. Dude is a fairly unisex greeting in America.

[goatkun]

Spoiler for riddle:

Alright, I think I'm close too... thanks to Mr. Q now I am on the right track, but this ended being a bit more difficult than I expected. Anyways this is quite fun, if I have any luck with it I will post again

Spoiler for boring stuff dont read:

Also what the heck mem0 do? Aside from the shaking and the spstr stuff I have no idea what else it does, is it shuffling the cards or freeing memory?

Spoiler for WitchofDoubt:

Oh wow, I got the same number but I didn't tried to check the unicode, did you manage to open the treasure chest?

[Mr.Q]

Alright. I'm working with someone else to figure this out, and I'm not sure I would have been able to get this far on my own. So mega thanks to him.
So we have this...

Spoiler for Find the Key:

and then we have what I believe to be part of the solution...

Spoiler for Find the Key:

2 numbers/letters are swapping places each row. The first row is the original string. The green shows areas that remain intact from the original row. The red denotes what two numbers have traded places in the current row. The orange shows the same numbers from the previous row(s).

I am under the assumption that if I can figure out the pattern, the 6th row will have 2 digits that switch, and that final row will be the "key" I'm looking for.

We don't quite have it all yet... The "B" switching threw us off...

What do you think, Jan-Poo?

[Jan-Poo]

@Renall

It's a real pity that the Redaction project is stalled. It was an interesting story, but maybe the problem is that it was a bit too ambitious. This is why with Witches & Woodlands I tried to stay as much as possible far away from the "mystery" element of Umineko. I didn't want to create something that could affect or be affected by speculations on the nature of the story. I'm sure you well understand the problems with that. It was kind of amusing how in the first chapters of redaction there were so many subliminal disclaimers like "this game might not be exactly (or at all) like the ones in the canon story." and so on.

The new project looks very interesting and intriguing. You already know how much I loved the fictional IRC chat session you recreated in redaction, and this seems to be somethig on that lines extended to a whole story.
The only question I have is: do you already know where this will be going?
Different writers have different methods, but when I devise a story the first things I think about are the "beginning" the "climax" and the "end". Then I proceed to the general structure, if there's some important key scene I try to define that as well. And then for the most part is all stuff that I come up with while I write, but having a clear finality in mind is important, I believe. Even if you change your mind in the middle of the story.


@those who try and solve the riddle

Reading your reasonings and looking at your progress is really a lot of fun!
You see, when I made this riddle I tried to imagine myself in your place and tried to think what would you notice, what would you do and what kind of connections would you make.
And a lot of the steps you made are exactly as I imagined! And at the same time there's a lot of reasonings that I didn't really foresee. Those are fun to read too!

Now I'd want to comment them all and tell you "this is a very good reasoning", "you're going out of track here", but I must resist the urge.

I can only say for now that I don't think it will take that much before you'll finally open the chest. As long as you try different paths and do not focus on a single approach.

I think the main problem with the "messaggio" was that you thought it was meant to give you the password directly.


Regarding the *rem0 Anon-kun mentioned. I knew someone would try to look inside the code! Which is why I needed to take some necessary preemptive measures.
It's all right. While it doesn't really reflect my own view, in the "when they cry" universe anything goes for reaching the victory, even cheating! If you played Higurashi you know what I mean. But given that, then it's my duty to foresee whatever shortcut you might take and block it. And if you manage to still take an easy way, well then that's my fault for failing to cover that. That's the true spirit of Mion's club!

Spoiler for w&w riddle:

So I could have simply created an image like the one you see in Mr Q. screenshot and place it among the many other png. No way! I couldn't risk for someone to use nsaout and stumble upon it without even reasoning about the riddle. There isn't such an image! You'll never find anything that even mentions a "key" and tells you to find it!
Of course the same goes for the script. I could have written "find the key" in the script so it would be displayed at the right moment, but no, even if you try that, you won't find it!
As for the numbers, you can only find a single string of random numbers among the images, but it is completely different from the lines you see in the right screen.
And if you try and jump directly to the part of the script that shows the riddle? That won't work either! You'll get a blank a page!

The only way to see the right thing is to win the minigame by making zero error, or by understanding the complex algoritm I created and setting up all the right variables, but good luck with that. I guess it's possible, but it should be practically as difficult as to do the right thing. So even if you try and manage that, it's fine.

[goatkun]

Hahahaha, when you say knew, I think I know who are you talking about! Unfortunately I did see the "find the key" picture a long time ago, but I just didn't knew how to get it. Then Mr. Q. posted it here.

Spoiler for a little problem:

So, those lines are actually a complex algorithm, yes when I tried to see the screen by myself I could not jump to rem0, however there's something that could not be evaded. The condition to jump to rem0 could be easily removed. Anyways, it was kinda ironic because when I tried to play the minigame again it showed me the cards for some seconds, time enough to screenshoot them.
By the way I have had a lot of fun trying to solve this riddle, so I excuse myself from trying something tricky, but I wanted to see the screen by myself.

[alarmadadna hadi]

Some of the mysteries I felt were close to downright cheating, because I am not very good at writing mysteries. After ep8 and my indignation at that, I'm not feeling like being a complete hypocrite on that. That... kind of bothers me. I refuse to publish something that cheats, but I don't think I'm competent to get by without it.

I'm not writing the story so I might be talking outta my glorious behind here, but now that we understand the "nature" and "tricks" of umineko, I think it might be fun to apply such principles to your redacted, as they're not the kind of reasonings that just any story accepts. In other words, it might not be cheap now that readers are closer to the "real reality" of umi's universe.
I guess I'm proposing this manner of thinking because I'm still looking forward to it and wanna goad you into finishing it

But the new short story sounds fun too, so my eyes are on that now.

Also, Kinjo, how did I not find out about that fourth episode? This witch here will be playing it soon.

[Mr.Q]

Originally Posted by goatkun

Hahahaha, when you say knew, I think I know who are you talking about! Unfortunately I did see the "find the key" picture a long time ago, but I just didn't knew how to get it. Then Mr. Q. posted it here.]

I apologize for that. I didn't want to post it but I thought it would be necessary if I wanted to also post my results.

Here is a "WTF?" idea I'm having. If you decide to take a peek, don't let it distract you from your own reasoning!!!

Spoiler for Find the Key:

Talk about "chessboard thinking"...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The only question I have is: do you already know where this will be going?
Different writers have different methods, but when I devise a story the first things I think about are the "beginning" the "climax" and the "end". Then I proceed to the general structure, if there's some important key scene I try to define that as well. And then for the most part is all stuff that I come up with while I write, but having a clear finality in mind is important, I believe. Even if you change your mind in the middle of the story.

I plan whole stories in outline and then go in and fill it in. I've been kind of slacking on that with Redaction which is why I think certain parts of it became distracted messes. The new story is start to finish, and I'm not scripting anything that isn't chronologically the next part of the story that needs to go into the engine. That seems to be working well as a discipline factor.

Having said that, I think I might have come up with a few ways to "fix" Redaction, although it may require me to throw out entirely the 1986 sections and start over. Some thoughts follow.

Spoiler for Thought Process Spoilers:

One of the big problems I'd been having with the 1986 section is its lack of parallels to the 1996 section, which was at cross purposes with my claim that the former was written as some manner of confession to the latter. I mean, it makes sense; if the forgery doesn't have anything to do with the events, how can it be a confession at all? I don't know that there were even sufficient thematic connections. In many ways, the two stories were too far separated (the 1996 story was the "original" idea and had I written it solely as that story two years ago I'd probably be long done with it by now, as that part I have planned out 100%).

So I have an idea for a story that works much better overall. Unfortunately it means throwing out basically all prior development. So... ouch. Not sure about that one.

EDIT: Alright then, I done did it. Gonna be a big pain in the ass but hey, I've spent forever working on this, what's another forever?

[WitchOfDoubt]

Solved! Thanks to Mr. Q. for pushing my thoughts in the right direction.

(EDITED to present this in a more Umineko-ish fashion:

Spoiler for Battler fails at chess:

Battler stared at the board. The whole game seemed to be totally illegal - it started out soundly, but then the black king just jumped across, like, five squares.

"Of course he did! Are you surprised, Battler? This is the power of the witch! I had Gaap open a portal to move him aaaallll the way over there."

There was a pause as Battler considered this feat of magic and/or cheating, and then he firmly facepalmed. "You know," he said, "I feel really damn stupid now. I get it. Here's the trick I have to use..."

After he performed the 'trick' in question, the game was entirely legal. "This looks familiar," said Battler. "I think Kanon did this to me once. It's an old trick."

"Indeed! And they even named it after you, Battleeeer!"

Battler groaned at the witch's mad laughter. Well, at least he knew the key now.

Thanks to Jan-Poo for an excellent puzzle and a great game.

[Jan-Poo]

Congratulations Witch of Doubt! And of course the merit also goes to everyone that contributed to this solution!

I think Mr Q. will arrive to it soon, unless he didn't already (by the way you swapped the B and the 9 and the A and C in that pic, I almost had a heart attack at first thinking that I made a mistake XD)

So it wasn't that hard in the end, wasn't it?

[Mr.Q]

Who would have thought that...

Spoiler for W&W Riddle:

my chessboard idea would actually be what lead me to the answer.

We found the password Jan-Poo...I feel accomplished and slightly trolled...

I won't put up the password. The hint's I've left behind should be enough for anyone to solve it if they get stuck. I will say that this was a fine riddle.

Don't read my opinion unless you have solved the riddle, please!

Spoiler for My Thoughts on the Riddle:

My only complaint was that there wasn't enough to show the riddle was keeping the Umineko theme. Sure you can infer that it should, but I feel that a tiny tiny hint to show that it still fits the style would have helped a lot. Then again, maybe it would have helped too much.

Also, white traditionally moves first. After setting up the board, "B" ended up becoming the king. It only made sense if white went second in this case. That stalled our efforts quite a bit.

*edit WitchOfDoubt got the post in before me!!!! GAH!

Jan-Poo, you made a work of art with your game and a great challenge with your riddle. I am thankful for them both!

[WitchOfDoubt]

The riddle is entirely fair, and none of the hints in this thread are truly necessary to solve it once "Find the Key" has been reached. I encourage solvers to give it their very best once they've seen that screen, taking a screen capture for their own reference or using the one in this thread.

Everything you need to solve this puzzle can be found on that screen, possibly in combination with a little bit of out-of-game research.

Mr. Q:

Spoiler for Are you sure there's a mistake?:

White does move first. You just have to think like Battler...

My only complaint was that there wasn't enough to show the riddle was keeping the Umineko theme. Sure you can infer that it should, but I feel that a tiny tiny hint to show that it still fits the style would have helped a lot. Then again, maybe it would have helped too much.

The main strength of this riddle is its use of misdirection - I pulled out a hex editor, and started looking at Unicode values, too, because the way the setup was coded made it look like characters stored in memory. I wouldn't recommend sacrificing that strength.

I ALMOST reached the chessboard epiphany myself; I thought that it was "awfully similar to the 07151129" puzzle when I saw the blocks of 8 characters, so your diagram made me facepalm with the realization that I'd missed the logical step.

(EDITED my post to obscure the answer a little more.)

Spoiler for Also:

I was going off of the picture with the switched letters. Is it really necessary to use 'that trick' if the letters aren't switched?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Q

Spoiler for My Thoughts on the Riddle:

My only complaint was that there wasn't enough to show the riddle was keeping the Umineko theme. Sure you can infer that it should, but I feel that a tiny tiny hint to show that it still fits the style would have helped a lot. Then again, maybe it would have helped too much.

Also, white traditionally moves first. After setting up the board, "B" ended up becoming the king. It only made sense if white went second in this case. That stalled our efforts quite a bit.

Spoiler for riddle solution:

The riddle might have an Umineko theme in it, but the basic concept is about 10 years old.
I had this idea when I was frequenting a forum where there was this thread about riddles and puzzles. At one point we begun showing and creating number progressions, but the guys there were really smart, so I had this idea. And I showed them a huge wall of text of 64 digits number list XD
I posted a whole game right before checkmate so the next "number" was mandatory. All of them were completely at loss except for one guy, he recognized the "castle" move and solved it.
The version I used here is easier in a way but harder in another, I also flipped it to make it less obvious.

As for the white move first problem. I think you used a different method to arrange the numbers. The right one is very simple, you just need to press enter every 8 digits or for an even more spectacular system, you write the lines in a word processor and then resize the window until each line forms a square. of course then you need to rotate all the cheesboards 90° clockwise.[/quote]