2012-01-25, 16:45 | Link #27301 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-25, 17:07 | Link #27302 | |
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2012-01-25, 17:09 | Link #27303 |
The True Culprit
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But you're effectively saying she is, because she doesn't have any of the capabilities she was told she has, under your theory. How the hell would Erika not notice and complain? You're trying to bandaid a huge plothole but what you're proposing doesn't make any sense.
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2012-01-25, 17:28 | Link #27304 |
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What Featherine meant about ripping the guts out of a cat isn't solely about finding the truth. Its disecting every part of the story and pulling out its nasties. The regret that that comes from this is that you find out that the stories aren't really well written or though out right. And boy does Umineko have a whole lot of filthy guts
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2012-01-25, 19:46 | Link #27305 | |
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That is not necessarily true. In fact, I believe it is largely wrong. Humans were never told that their truths are correct. Does that mean they are being cruelly tricked? No. They can go around and experience the world with their senses, and decide what is the truth for themselves. Even so, their senses are not at the level of Red Truth. That is how it is with Erika's Piece in the Mystery side of the story, according to my theory. In the end, what we are all looking for in this story is "an answer we can be satisfied with." Whether Ryukishi gives us this answer or not, it doesn't change that this is our objective. And it doesn't change the fact that we are capable of reaching this objective. I believe I will reach that objective, myself. Do you? |
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2012-01-25, 20:20 | Link #27306 |
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I don't get why Erika can't make the mistake of not making sure behind her there's really Shannon and Kumasawa and Kanon is really where Battler says he was.
Despite being intelligent she overlooked checking things more than once in Umineko so missing to check is an error she's prone to do. We're never told Erika saw Kanon and Shannon together in the parlour, we're told that Battler saw them, first one and after the other but in such a short amount of time it's hard to think Yasuda managed to switch from one to the other, realistically speaking (Umineko sometimes could care less about realism, though, but I don't think that speedchanging Yasuda is the trick here). In order to see them Battler had to move his gaze around the room, while Erika was in front of him, likely looking at him. From Erika's perspective she likely in that moment saw Battler, George and Jessica... and possibly who were behind them or close to them. If there were people close or behind them. She had to play the polite and proper guest, it's rude to costantly look around, expecially when talking with someone else. Lambda took advantage of this to trick everyone (Bern, Erika, Battler) about everyone being present. It fits with Erika's character (she doesn't always check thingseven when it could turn important later) without touching Erika's abilities (she cannot be shown falsehood). It's nothing else but the same trick used to have her believe that the cousins were dead or that Kanon was in the room. In both cases, if she had checked, she wouldn't have been tricked. And now let's talk about an odd thing I noticed about the gold. The world's largest gold bar stands at 250 kg (551 lb), measuring 45.5 cm × 22.5 cm × 17 cm. Now this means 10 tons of gold would be 40 gold bars and if I try to build a wall with them I would have 227,5 cm x 45 cm x 68 cm (5 gold bars x 2 gold bars x 4 gold bars). Okay, so the gold bars used in Umineko can't be that big as they weight only 10 kg and a gold bar isn't a perfect parallelepiped so measurement is approximative but still... it doesn't look like the huge mountain of gold we see in Umineko, though the gold bar would be 1000. Though maybe it's an optical illusion. The wall showed in the PSP version seems huge but the ingots might be rather small... and the anime and the manga might have not bothered checking how big the 'mountain' of gold was supposed to be. Also about 'Our Confession'. Spoiler for Spoiler about Our Confession:
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2012-01-25, 20:28 | Link #27307 |
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She keeps an eye out for every single person, she establishes alibis for every single one. She does so to incriminate Nats. Its not just the parlor scene but also during the time of the first twilight and Hideyoshi's murder. If Kanon/Shannon weren't really there during those times then the author just hand waved a bunch of plot holes by using "Erika is an idiot huuuur"
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2012-01-25, 20:31 | Link #27308 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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And if the witches are just fucking with Erika, and she can't hope to win, then why in the fuck is she an antagonist? Why is Battler HELPING to bully her? Why is everyone being a jackass for no reason except to troll the readers and waste everyone's time? Quote:
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2012-01-25, 20:41 | Link #27309 |
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...I've only been repeating things that have been stated over and over throughout Umineko, whether it be the novels or Tsubasa. That's why I think it is close to the truth. However, I acknowledge that there can be holes.
For example, I don't remember Lambda saying that everything Erika observes is literally 100% certain. Alright. Then in that case, I'll adjust my theory to match that. Everything Piece Erika observes, is 100% certain. It is at the level of Red Truth. Therefore, that which she does not observe, or does not pay attention to, is not 100% certain. And since we were only shown the Fantasy side of that scene, then as far as we're concerned, anything could have happened on the Mystery side, within reason. So, my theory about staging a detective game instead of doing normal introductions is still valid. |
2012-01-25, 20:59 | Link #27310 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-01-25, 21:04 | Link #27311 | |
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Furthermore, while everything she does observe is not an illusion in any way, shape, or form, and is therefore 100% certain, it is not as though she wouldn't be able to mistake a real sound for a different sound if the two sounded similar. |
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2012-01-25, 21:14 | Link #27313 | ||
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2012-01-25, 21:20 | Link #27314 | |
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However, even if what you are seeing is not an illusion at all, it's possible to mistake it for something similar. If I ring two bells next to you, but both are similar enough that it's hard to tell that they are different, you might think that they are both the same type of bell. Even so, the fact remains that both of these bells are very real and your hearing is presenting you with perfectly accurate data of the noise around you. |
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2012-01-25, 22:08 | Link #27315 |
Reading your tale. :)
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Location: Just out of sight, eating popcorn. >:D
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@Toku
That doesn't excuse THREE different scenes where Erika should have noticed something off about Shannon and Kanon and yet did nothing about it. 1) The aforementioned parlor scene everyone's been discussing where everyone is supposedly there. 2) When Erika's trying to corner Natsuhi about Kinzo's dissappearance. 3) When Erika is accuses Natsuhi of the crime.
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2012-01-25, 22:12 | Link #27316 |
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Whoa-za ... are you responding to a specific theory, or every one out there? Part of why I support Kanon having a body is that it means Erika's Mary-Sue powers worked EXACTLY as we were told, and she gets to still be as intelligent and anal retentive about details as we're told she is. Of course, my theory DOES have Erika being mildly duped - it would mean Lambda made a fundamental change to the structure of the game unannounced, and !Battler reverted back to the original structure, similarly unannounced. I would not say, however, that either told her deliberate lies about their narratives ... er, beyond the degree that Beato did with any of her games, anyway. ALSO, we've been discussing this parlor scene, but the last few posts made me realize that we may not all be talking about the same one. Most of my thinking concerned Erika'd denouement, wherein she deliberately gathered every living charater into the parlor with her. However, some of us seem to be talking about her introduction, where the "people in parlor now equals people on island" red was made. I bring this up because I can maybe, MAYBE excuse Kanon being behind Godha at the introduction, where Erika was still playing the part of a mature, refined young lady, but I came to my own conclusion at the denouement where, despite the continuing lack of Erika's first-person descriptives, the presence of every human besides Kinzo, Hideyoshi, and Twilight was deliberate on the part of Erika herself, and typical of the type of denouement scene that's ... hm, traditional isn't the word I want to use - expected. |
2012-01-25, 22:45 | Link #27317 | |
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My intention here, is not to create a theory which has absolutely 0 holes in it, and the reason for this is that I won't have a chance to go back and read through the novels again for quite some time. After all, the novels are all really long, and I'm a slow reader. And I'd need to at least go through all of EP5 again. That'd be the bare minimum. Even so, I wanted to try and come up with theories. It would be difficult for me to respond to 2 and 3 as I am now. I can come up with a few theories for them (like for example, by pointing out the fact that everyone is not necessarily in the same place during those scenes), but it would be difficult to develop it to the point where it would be truly satisfactory. My memory is just too vague in regards to these scenes and related information. |
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2012-01-26, 02:17 | Link #27318 | |
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EDIT: Or, Shannon being the irrelevant element and Kanon actually being acknowledged physically(which would mean a change in Yasu's disguise). |
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2012-01-26, 07:57 | Link #27320 |
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Thats the point, Erika clearly cares about the position of everyone and establishes alibis for them just so she can corner Natsuhi. These alibis rise to the the level of red truth for everyone other than the people in the first twilight, its the only reason why Battler was able to create the alternate truth.
If she had conveniently left out Kanon then Battler could have gone out in his desperate non Sorcerer form and said something like "Kanon was never accounted for in your theories! He could have committed the crimes! Natsuhi is innocent!" I subscribe to the idea that Kanon was physically there, its the only way Erika doesn't come out as an idiot thats being played by everyone. Thats what "lack of love" means, because in this game, the only reason for Shkanon to exists is absent and yet they are there. Battler corrects this in EP6 and warns Erika to pay attention to the fantasy scenes and she didn't, because in her mind that was useless other than establishing probable motive. If she had actually paid attention to them, she could have figured out the Shkanon trick. |
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