Sword Art Online - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

I think this is where people are having problems with the Marty Stu argument. "Mary Sue" originally referred to a type of character that plagued Star Trek fanfic -- she'd come on the Enterprise and solve problems that stump Spock and Scotty, wow Kirk with her bravery, beat Sulu in a fencing competition, etc. That isn't Kirito -- his comrades consider him a great fighter, but they question his decisions, in particular his insistence on being a solo player, and sometimes he screws up royally. That's not Mary Sue; that's Kirk.

Needs more shirt tearing and moral posturing to be Kirk.

As for the fights, well I kind of have had the same problem up to now that others have. Every fight typically feels like it's either a one shot or that there's no real way to do proper damage (TCG fight much?) except for the very first one in episode 2 which was great. Can't help but compare everything since to the likes of Accel World, Hunter x Hunter and Horizon which lay it all out on the table every time there's so much as a a skirmish. Truly I've been spoiled by a lot of great fights in anime lately such that this ones indeed comes off feeling lacklustre.

Character development in this show is okay. Liz seems like she'll be a recurring character (show desperately needs another one other than Asuna and Klein) and like she can provide good support for missions to come with her smithing skills, but I doubt she'll be along for the ride in fights since she's very clearly in the can't do damage category. The very quickly developed feelings for Kirito were indeed pretty sudden, but I think she admires him for his bravery more than anything and will get over it and that's the last we'll see of that. Not the most compelling side story, but not exactly the worst character introduction either and she gets to live at the end too.

[aigomorla]

uhhh... kirk sleeps with every girl, nah.. infact.. every female gender across the alien board.
Doesnt matter, can be green, blue, red, pink... kirk will sleep with them all.

Kirito... on the other hand WONT.

Anyhow this episode again was a let down.

[Wild Goose]

I think I might be in a dissenting opinion yet again, in that I actually enjoyed this episode and it felt less of a chore than reading the corresponding light novel sidestory.

Heresy, I know. On the other hand I've been replaying Front Mission 5, and thinking to myself that if people here have problems with Kirito, holy shit will they have problems with Walter Feng, who is connected in some way to every single Front Mission game and his personal story also wraps up the dangling plot threads of every Front Mission game, prior to Evolved... sorry, rambling a bit.

Anyhow, this was a decent translation of everything - I'm quite glad that two things were left out; the first was speculated to be definitely cut since it's a spoiler () and the second was... well let's just say that there was a bit more fanservice in the original, and it got toned down, and I'm happy with that. (Sometimes, toning down something isn't bad at all.)

Solid ep, all things considered. While it appears that there is a loud and stringent school of thought decrying the series, I find that so far the team have done their best effort, and so far things are holding up well, compared to the novels.

Also, regards Mary Sues, I'm going to quote Larry Correia on this - and given that the man is a New York Times best selling author, I'd wager his opinion to have more weight than the average forum poster. Apologies on his language.

The term comes from fan fiction. This is when the author makes up a thinly-veiled version of themselves to stick into their fanfic. Of course, they will be super awesome in every way, and Captain Kirk/Reynolds/Sheridan/Nemo will fall madly in love with them. They’re amazing. They save the day. They’re wish fulfillment in a fictional form. If it is a boy scoring with Uhura/Kaylee/that chick with the thing on her forehead/ or Mina Harker, then it would be a Marty Stu.

The problem comes in when idiot critics accuse writers of normal fiction of having Mary Sue characters. This is usually done in a manner of smug superiority, as if they’re a brilliant literary big-brains, who’s poop smells like fresh wildflowers, because they’re just so damn intelligent that they caught some foolish author violating a “rule”.

Well, I’ve already stated my opinion on writing rules. If you break a rule, but it works, it doesn’t suck, you can sell it, and entertain your audience, then screw the rule. You can break any rule you want if you can pull it off. This goes double for stupid rules.

My main issue with the wild Sue accusations is that A. They’re often not even true Sues, and B. If it creates an enjoyable character, then who gives a damn?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

well, I don't really like noisy girl like Lizbeth but during this episode, finally I can see her appeal...
at least, Kirito isn't a dumb guy who doesn't realize girls feelings around him...
when Asuna appeared, I already hear something cracked... hahaha... what a painful episode
I'm glad Lizbeth is mature enough to face reality.... just like what Silica did

I saw it coming from a mile away... the moment when Liz wondered about finding someone important in her life one day. Then, it was sort of confirmed to me once Kirito arrived alone without Asuna, and both characters not even mentioning her name.

It was indeed unfortunate for Lizbeth to the point I wish it didn't happen to her. A solid epiosode as most viewers here would tend to say, but not particulary amazing in a gamechanger sense.

Still, I hope the main conflict gets addressed once again. Side stories are all well and good to introduce these characters, but it's like being part of the frontlines doesn't hold that much weight anymore if it's just casually mentioned to remind us that there's this life and death situation out there. Slices of life of online denizens give us a look of how they cope and live out their strange new lives within their new world, but with its limited run of episodes, it'd be great if the series could strike a balance and show us the other side of it all as well.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Needs more shirt tearing and moral posturing to be Kirk.

As for the fights, well I kind of have had the same problem up to now that others have. Every fight typically feels like it's either a one shot or that there's no real way to do proper damage (TCG fight much?) except for the very first one in episode 2 which was great.

Which makes a certain amount of sense, at least in PvE. Conventional wisdom is to not move around on a floor unless you're overpowered for it. Otherwise... well, see what happened to the Black Cats when they pushed themselves just a little.

So Kirito, as a clearer, is overpowered for the highest open floor, which is several floors up from whichever the side-story occurs in. Of course, you've got (a lot of) cases like Scilica's, where she's fine in a party, but should go down several floors from her usual hunting grounds if she wanted to solo. But that doesn't concern Kirito who solos to start with.

[styr]

I'm not sure if this was posted or not... but regardless, I had to post this. I almost fell out of my chair when I first saw it.

While watching episode 7, I found an absolutely hilarious frame of Kirito's expression during their escape from the dragon pit, timestamps is at 14:21 and only appears for a few frames.

Maybe Kirito was just happy to be leaving the frozen pit, but something on his face makes me think otherwise. His grin seems a bit out of place for the scene.. especially when you consider where his hand is at on Liz's body. In this next frame you can clearly see his fingers have gripped even harder than the first pic, and the way he is holding her wouldn't be as effective as having his fingers lay flat against her.

Perhaps Kirito is at "that age" and wanted to use the escape opportunity to the fullest extent of his abilities? Either way it's a good thing Lisbeth was wearing that coat Kirito gave her, otherwise there wouldn't have been much fabric covering her behind with her bent over his shoulder like that!

For those of you familiar with the two popular ways to hold a mouse, Kirito is using the claw grip on Lisbeth's rear, when the palm grip would be better in that situation.. I think

Personally, I think he was coping a feel* while he had the chance. That shit-eating grin* of his really doesn't help, either.. Probably just the animators having a bit of fun with the scene, but I found it priceless in context with Lisbeth's look of shock about a second before my two pics happened.

*url provided for those unfamiliar with the phrases. I originally linked to urbandictionary but found a better source and changed it.

[M1sFyr3]

I think it was pretty good, the crystals by the dragon looked nice. I'm glad they put this into one episode instead of spreading it out. Though I think they were kind of too calm when falling from the sky, maybe should've been slightly more worried. Liz's reactions to some of the things were pretty funny, but I think in the episode I watched some of the subtitles were translated awkwardly. Instead of Asuna and Liz talking about finding "someone" important it said "something." That may just be me interpreting it wrong. The dragon was decent, but kinda random in what it did too. The emotional scenes for Liz were decent. I am confused how Kirito's and Liz's health bars were both at about the same level despite Kirito's level being a lot higher, including his healing and health, as seen from him surviving the yellow group gank in a previous episode.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

As for the fights, well I kind of have had the same problem up to now that others have. Every fight typically feels like it's either a one shot or that there's no real way to do proper damage (TCG fight much?) except for the very first one in episode 2 which was great. Can't help but compare everything since to the likes of Accel World, Hunter x Hunter and Horizon which lay it all out on the table every time there's so much as a a skirmish.

To take the Accel World comparison though, losing a fight in AW means you lose access to a game. A vital game that many of the characters are hopelessly addicted to, and one that has strong side benefits for their real lives... but they don't die for losing. They just lose access to a game.

The Horizon anime, in a similar vein, hasn't had many duels to the death. The characters can give it their all, but they don't 'typically' die when they fail.

SAO conversely is a death-game the player's are hostages in. It's all well and good to wish there would be more risk of death in these fights, but the player's themselves would have to be insane to venture into that sort of battle. Remember they're captives held against their will, not brave and bright-eyed heroes who have volunteered to be there.

Kirito is vastly over-leveled for the content he's partaking in, so it should seem easy. If the current floor is somewhere in the late 60's or early 70's (napkin math, HO!) then he could be 90th level. The Dragon as a powerful monster on the 56th floor shouldn't be ANY sort of challenge to him. It's not meant to be a fight with a risk of death, he's just trying to get materials for a new sword.

Even the front line fights shouldn't have much risk of death. I mean, really. If you think about it they should have long hours of strategy sessions and scouting attempts prior to any boss fight, followed by lots of switching out and resting while healing with those healing potions we keep seeing. Losing the entirety of your front line raid group in a single battle would set the rest of the hostages back an unbelievable amount of time.

Originally Posted by M1sFyr3

I am confused how Kirito's and Liz's health bars were both at about the same level despite Kirito's level being a lot higher, including his healing and health.

Most MMO's treat falling damage as a percentage of total health, so high level player's don't go skydiving 'just because they can'. Kirito's healing is a slow heal over time type effect from what we saw in that prior episode. He'd probably be okay just waiting for his health to regenerate, but they did just bump into a dragon. I'm sure the healing potions were a "just in case" sorta measure.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by M1sFyr3

I am confused how Kirito's and Liz's health bars were both at about the same level despite Kirito's level being a lot higher, including his healing and health, as seen from him surviving the yellow group gank in a previous episode.

Falling damage is usually percentage-based, isn't it?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Adigard

To take the Accel World comparison though, losing a fight in AW means you lose access to a game. A vital game that many of the characters are hopelessly addicted to, and one that has strong side benefits for their real lives... but they don't die for losing. They just lose access to a game.

The Horizon anime, in a similar vein, hasn't had many duels to the death. The characters can give it their all, but they don't 'typically' die when they fail.

SAO conversely is a death-game the player's are hostages in. It's all well and good to wish there would be more risk of death in these fights, but the player's themselves would have to be insane to venture into that sort of battle. Remember they're captives held against their will, not brave and bright-eyed heroes who have volunteered to be there.

Kirito is vastly over-leveled for the content he's partaking in, so it should seem easy. If the current floor is somewhere in the late 60's or early 70's (napkin math, HO!) then he could be 90th level. The Dragon as a powerful monster on the 56th floor shouldn't be ANY sort of challenge to him. It's not meant to be a fight with a risk of death, he's just trying to get materials for a new sword.

Even the front line fights shouldn't have much risk of death. I mean, really. If you think about it they should have long hours of strategy sessions and scouting attempts prior to any boss fight, followed by lots of switching out and resting while healing with those healing potions we keep seeing. Losing the entirety of your front line raid group in a single battle would set the rest of the hostages back an unbelievable amount of time.



Most MMO's treat falling damage as a percentage of total health, so high level player's don't go skydiving 'just because they can'.

You missed the point of what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about high the stakes are, though I do appreciate that, I was talking about just how exciting the fights were which so far has only really been the case for the 2nd one. None of the other fights have really gotten my blood pumping because they're usually very one-sided affairs because of the level difference and the only real tension is whether the girl Kirito's with that week is going to do something foolish to get herself killed anyway. I'm told that's to change once we hit the main story again though.

[styr]

@M1sFyr3, about falling damage

I'm pretty sure Kirito was in the red when he first started drinking his potion after the fall, while Lisbeth was in the orange. You only see Kirito in the red for maybe a second but he did take more damage than Liz.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You missed the point of what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about high the stakes are, though I do appreciate that, I was talking about just how exciting the fights were which so far has only really been the case for the 2nd one.

No, I got that... I'm just suggesting they shouldn't be high-stakes or exciting fights. They should be well planed out and carefully orchestrated battles that remove the risk of death. (Sadly that probably means the fights can be a bit boring). "Eek, I'm hurt, okay, let me fall back and drink a healing potion while my buddy tanks the boss while I heal."

Remember, people die if they're killed. I'd be odd for our front-line fighters to be risking their lives every time they fought a boss... especially at this stage. After defeating 60+ floors of content and bosses they should be very careful.

But we don't really know, the only floor boss fight we've seen was in ep2, and that only went massively awry because Diabel broke his own strategy and tried to kill the boss at the end solo.

Things will heat up from here, but that's a talk for another episode.

[Jerseykid]

Stupid anime rules preventing Kirito from getting both Liz and Asuna

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Jerseykid

Stupid anime rules preventing Kirito from getting both Liz and Asuna

Yeah, damn those stupid anime shows that opt to have a proper romance instead of taking the easy route and going for the harem end! ;p

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Even the front line fights shouldn't have much risk of death. I mean, really. If you think about it they should have long hours of strategy sessions and scouting attempts prior to any boss fight, followed by lots of switching out and resting while healing with those healing potions we keep seeing. Losing the entirety of your front line raid group in a single battle would set the rest of the hostages back an unbelievable amount of time.

I'm thinking the reverse of that, or rather my view is a bit different.

All that planning, preparation, organization and training is precisely due to the fact that there is an actual risk of death. Partly due to human nature and their life and death situation, we see a group of players falling in line into ranks and hierarchies, forming guilds, establishing little economies and participating in social interactions as a way of coping and surviving their new world. Some even resort to crime (PK guilds and whatnot).

People support one another, play smart and cautiously because they can actually die. The danger is indeed quite real, despite that there may be some who don't believe it to be true... not to mention the fact that the longer they're trapped in the game means that they continue to be in whatever state they're in, in the real world.

I do get your point though, about how a proper way of doing things can minimize risks on the field.

[Clarste]

There is a risk, but it's a small one. No one's overconfident, but it shouldn't be a close battle anything. People will play cautiously.

Yes, the fear of real death is what drives basically everything anyone ever does in the series, but that doesn't change the fact that logically speaking the boss fights should be boring because they use the strategies that have the least chance of death. In other words, overlevel it and have the tanks switch out before they even get low. No one's taking any chances and therefore the battles are boring to watch.

There's a risk of death when driving a car, and good drivers are always hyper-aware of their surroundings, but that doesn't mean it's interesting to watch.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Clarste

No one's overconfident, but it shouldn't be a close battle anything. People will play cautiously.

Tell that to the guild that Kirito was in a few episodes ago...

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Tell that to the guild that Kirito was in a few episodes ago...

And that's why they're not a clearing guild. The overconfident get weeded out quickly.

[Anh_Minh]

The clearers, those who survived for 70+ floors, are a different breed.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Yes, the fear of real death is what drives basically everything anyone ever does in the series, but that doesn't change the fact that logically speaking the boss fights should be boring because they use the strategies that have the least chance of death. In other words, overlevel it and have the tanks switch out before they even get low. No one's taking any chances and therefore the battles are boring to watch.

Actually, I wasn't really relating what I've said with regard to how boring or exciting the fight scenes are... which I view as a separate thing. It's one thing to be logical about something, and another to show it in an entertaining way.

When it comes to the entertainment factor, I do agree that recent action scenes have been some steps down from the action and teamwork featured in episode 2. This is why I would like to see events from the frontline again.