(L+CR) Ōsama Game (King's Game)

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

I have pets so seeing Aya almost killing her dog got me, but it horrofied me even more she kill her parents and she put more value on her dog´s life, that´s also pretty messed up!.

Wait, she killed her parents? How did I miss that?

[BWTraveller]

She was sitting in her family living room with blood all over her hands, near a picture of her family, and asking whether maybe he was the one she needed to lose. It's not explicitly shown that she offed her folks, but the location she's in and the photo and the fact that she's desperately looking at the dog and thinking "is it YOU?" strongly suggests that she's killed the rest of her family in desperation to pass. Not to mention she said he's the only one she couldn't bear to kill.
After this ep, I think I have a guess about the King. The first King did something that created the game. Possibly he didn't even have control over it or the orders given out: rather than deliberate wishes the orders came either from subconscious thoughts and impulses or from some external force working through him without his control. Filled with remorse over the curse he'd placed on himself and his daughters, he ultimately killed himself. Later, Chiemi, daughter of the King, became King of a new game. Some sort of loophole resulted in her not technically being "touched". Perhaps it's because there was always cloth between Nami and Chiemi, or perhaps the first time Nami didn't actually fully touch Chiemi before the scare text popped up, and like Ria suggested the later touch was Chiemi touching Nami rather than the other way around. I haven't read the manga so I don't know the specifics of Chiemi's death aside from what was shown in the opening, but if that's anything like what really happened perhaps Chiemi, as one of the two remaining survivors, realized that she was somehow the King and came up with a way to force her own death to release him. Now there's only one left in this cursed bloodline, one person who remains to possess the title of "King", and this time it's a sadistic, psychopathic #$%^& who only cares about herself and, unlike her sister, would happily use her powers to eliminate or torture anyone who gets in her way or annoys her. The opening showing her standing against Nobuaki as an enemy was actually a demonstration of the truth, that in this game she IS the enemy, not just a classmate going berserk on account of the situation but the actual enemy responsible for all of this.

[AC-Phoenix]

YOu know I didn't watch the Flashback episodes on purpose (looks like I got to rewatch because there was content hidden in it) but if that is your understanding of how things went then the anime did a really.. I can't even say bad job here because that would be an insult to bad jobs.

I'd really love to if I could make a proper comparison post here -I'm unsure if this case even allows that though... Although it would clear up a lot of confusion. Sadly it would also explain the King and stuff.

I am pretty sure I can say that much: Her death in EP 1 is to be considered Noubaki's Nightmare (from which he even wakes up btw).
Whether Natsuko is responsible or just snapped when it happened is another story though. By your argument Chiemi would also be responsible for the first game. I am still waiting for them to show her actual death so I can post a theory in that regard but yeah.

And this is why I said they should have either done:

a) Anime of Part 1
b) No Flashbacks at all
c) 2 cour with 12 EPs Part 1 and 12Eps Part 2

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

YOu know I didn't watch the Flashback episodes on purpose (looks like I got to rewatch because there was content hidden in it) but if that is your understanding of how things went then the anime did a really.. I can't even say bad job here because that would be an insult to bad jobs.

I'd really love to if I could make a proper comparison post here -I'm unsure if this case even allows that though... Although it would clear up a lot of confusion. Sadly it would also explain the King and stuff.

I am pretty sure I can say that much: Her death in EP 1 is to be considered Noubaki's Nightmare (from which he even wakes up btw).
Whether Natsuko is responsible or just snapped when it happened is another story though. By your argument Chiemi would also be responsible for the first game. I am still waiting for them to show her actual death so I can post a theory in that regard but yeah.

And this is why I said they should have either done:

a) Anime of Part 1
b) No Flashbacks at all
c) 2 cour with 12 EPs Part 1 and 12Eps Part 2

I didn't say that Chiemi would have been personally responsible. I thought I was clear that my theory was strongly connected to either there being some force connected to the "King" so that the individual labeled "King" isn't really issuing the orders or the orders are connected to subconscious thoughts, ranging from momentary twinges of anger and desire for something to happen to someone to twinges of fear of "what if X happened" because of the situation. The subconscious is a scary thing, and if anything that comes to your mind becomes reality a lot of things that came from your "Oh, God, please don't let this happen" thoughts will manifest as well.

But anyway, I'm basing my theory, which I know is highly unlikely, on just a few things.
1: Nobuaki went to the village to find the secret to the King's Game and found out that there was a deep fundamental connection to the Honda family, including the deceased father, Chiemi and Natuko
2: The text sent to Nami confirms that the King is in the class, meaning that SOMETHING happened to make Nami fail to properly touch the crucial individual and complete her mission
3: Nami is only shown "touching" Chiemi in two spots. The first has a surprise text suddenly arrive, so sudden that it may be hard to tell whether she actually really touched HER before the text or just almost did, and the other being when Chiemi grabbed her over her sleeve, creating contact through cloth that was actually Chiemi touching Nami rather than the reverse. Frankly, she seems like the one with the most potential for loopholes to prevent the mission's success. Not to mention that, no matter how much she loved Nami, Nobuaki's girlfriend would probably have the greatest reason to harbor some deep-seated, suppressed desire to see his secret admirer fail.

If the anime does go down this path, which I'll admit I'd be somewhat surprised myself, I hope it manages to come up with an explanation that meshes well enough with the original to make you change your mind. Again, I doubt both those points. I'm probably wrong about this theory, just a minor speculation based on what the anime's shown so far, and frankly exploitation like this really doesn't strike me as capable of an ending that can be called "satisfying" or "good", or maybe even "consistent"

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

She was sitting in her family living room with blood all over her hands, near a picture of her family, and asking whether maybe he was the one she needed to lose. It's not explicitly shown that she offed her folks, but the location she's in and the photo and the fact that she's desperately looking at the dog and thinking "is it YOU?" strongly suggests that she's killed the rest of her family in desperation to pass. Not to mention she said he's the only one she couldn't bear to kill.
After this ep, I think I have a guess about the King. The first King did something that created the game. Possibly he didn't even have control over it or the orders given out: rather than deliberate wishes the orders came either from subconscious thoughts and impulses or from some external force working through him without his control. Filled with remorse over the curse he'd placed on himself and his daughters, he ultimately killed himself. Later, Chiemi, daughter of the King, became King of a new game. Some sort of loophole resulted in her not technically being "touched". Perhaps it's because there was always cloth between Nami and Chiemi, or perhaps the first time Nami didn't actually fully touch Chiemi before the scare text popped up, and like Ria suggested the later touch was Chiemi touching Nami rather than the other way around. I haven't read the manga so I don't know the specifics of Chiemi's death aside from what was shown in the opening, but if that's anything like what really happened perhaps Chiemi, as one of the two remaining survivors, realized that she was somehow the King and came up with a way to force her own death to release him. Now there's only one left in this cursed bloodline, one person who remains to possess the title of "King", and this time it's a sadistic, psychopathic #$%^& who only cares about herself and, unlike her sister, would happily use her powers to eliminate or torture anyone who gets in her way or annoys her. The opening showing her standing against Nobuaki as an enemy was actually a demonstration of the truth, that in this game she IS the enemy, not just a classmate going berserk on account of the situation but the actual enemy responsible for all of this.

Normally I would I agree with you completely about Natsuko but after reading Kigen I started feel really sorry for her, in may cases of insane people life and other in general has messed them up pretty bad over a long time, in Natsuko´s case she was doomed the moment she came into the world. The sins of the father doesn´t even begin to describe the horrible situation she was put in, if you add the King´s she was forced to particpate then it is only nayural she ended up this way.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I didn't say that Chiemi would have been personally responsible. I thought I was clear that my theory was strongly connected to either there being some force connected to the "King" so that the individual labeled "King" isn't really issuing the orders or the orders are connected to subconscious thoughts, ranging from momentary twinges of anger and desire for something to happen to someone to twinges of fear of "what if X happened" because of the situation. The subconscious is a scary thing, and if anything that comes to your mind becomes reality a lot of things that came from your "Oh, God, please don't let this happen" thoughts will manifest as well.

But anyway, I'm basing my theory, which I know is highly unlikely, on just a few things.
1: Nobuaki went to the village to find the secret to the King's Game and found out that there was a deep fundamental connection to the Honda family, including the deceased father, Chiemi and Natuko
2: The text sent to Nami confirms that the King is in the class, meaning that SOMETHING happened to make Nami fail to properly touch the crucial individual and complete her mission
3: Nami is only shown "touching" Chiemi in two spots. The first has a surprise text suddenly arrive, so sudden that it may be hard to tell whether she actually really touched HER before the text or just almost did, and the other being when Chiemi grabbed her over her sleeve, creating contact through cloth that was actually Chiemi touching Nami rather than the reverse. Frankly, she seems like the one with the most potential for loopholes to prevent the mission's success. Not to mention that, no matter how much she loved Nami, Nobuaki's girlfriend would probably have the greatest reason to harbor some deep-seated, suppressed desire to see his secret admirer fail.

If the anime does go down this path, which I'll admit I'd be somewhat surprised myself, I hope it manages to come up with an explanation that meshes well enough with the original to make you change your mind. Again, I doubt both those points. I'm probably wrong about this theory, just a minor speculation based on what the anime's shown so far, and frankly exploitation like this really doesn't strike me as capable of an ending that can be called "satisfying" or "good", or maybe even "consistent"

As I said the anime did a poor job in showing what actually happens. From what I read its apparently not even known who and what the King even is atm (which is strange considering that Rie already died. )

tbH I'm frankly just too lazy to contact an admin whether it is OK to dissolve the mess the anime produced here, otherwise I'd probably already expained what actually happened there

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

She was sitting in her family living room with blood all over her hands, near a picture of her family, and asking whether maybe he was the one she needed to lose. It's not explicitly shown that she offed her folks, but the location she's in and the photo and the fact that she's desperately looking at the dog and thinking "is it YOU?" strongly suggests that she's killed the rest of her family in desperation to pass. Not to mention she said he's the only one she couldn't bear to kill.

I really didn't pay enough attention if I missed all that. Or maybe I missed it on purpose because I was so convinced she was the heroine because of the OP.

Either way, thanks for clearing things up.

And actually, AC-Phoenix, what the King is has been revealed in the anime. You mean the fact it was originally a virus that has mutated into a sort of sentient computer virus, or was there supposed to be another reveal?

[Nachtwandler]

Damn, it hard for me to imaging more stupid plot and scenario than here. I am watching it only to see what another idiotic twiist we get.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

As I said the anime did a poor job in showing what actually happens. From what I read its apparently not even known who and what the King even is atm (which is strange considering that Rie already died. )

tbH I'm frankly just too lazy to contact an admin whether it is OK to dissolve the mess the anime produced here, otherwise I'd probably already expained what actually happened there

Actually, the anime does give a fair indication of what the King is. Like I said, when Nami fails her mission to touch the King, the message sent to her both declared her failure and CONFIRMED that the king is a member of the class. Unless the King is some sort of spiritual entity that cannot be touched or killed, this means that one of the classmates is the King. I'm not buying Ria. My guess would be that either the fire started weak because it was a psychosomatic reaction (she suggested that the deaths were all physiological or psychic reactions to the suggestions in the game), or after years of torture that goes far beyond what you could call "abuse" she's become pretty much unable to feel pain. But it's either Ria or Chiemi, as Ria's the only one to confirm that her touch may not count and Chiemi is questionable due to the interruption. So either Chiemi is directly connected but Ria is/was the King or Chiemi herself was King... or the King is "in the class" without being a specific human member of the class (like in a different blood fest where the teacher wound up being the one).

Of course this is all assuming that the King is playing at least a little bit fair and was telling the truth about being in the class, and since it set a trap with the virus theory who knows.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Of course this is all assuming that the King is playing at least a little bit fair and was telling the truth about being in the class, and since it set a trap with the virus theory who knows.

Actually, the King could have been in one of the cellphones or other electronic equipment with memory in the room and would be in the class. The King just wouldn't be a flesh and bone member of the class. It could be like The Major. The majority of its "self" is in the Cloud and it downloads parts of itself into any convenient electronic storage device in the class.

If they were following that theory, then Nami should have touched every cellphone, tablet, memory stick, computer, tv, projector, iPod, wireless device etc in the classroom or belonging to a classmate.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Actually, the anime does give a fair indication of what the King is. Like I said, when Nami fails her mission to touch the King, the message sent to her both declared her failure and CONFIRMED that the king is a member of the class. Unless the King is some sort of spiritual entity that cannot be touched or killed, this means that one of the classmates is the King. I'm not buying Ria. My guess would be that either the fire started weak because it was a psychosomatic reaction (she suggested that the deaths were all physiological or psychic reactions to the suggestions in the game), or after years of torture that goes far beyond what you could call "abuse" she's become pretty much unable to feel pain. But it's either Ria or Chiemi, as Ria's the only one to confirm that her touch may not count and Chiemi is questionable due to the interruption. So either Chiemi is directly connected but Ria is/was the King or Chiemi herself was King... or the King is "in the class" without being a specific human member of the class (like in a different blood fest where the teacher wound up being the one).

Of course this is all assuming that the King is playing at least a little bit fair and was telling the truth about being in the class, and since it set a trap with the virus theory who knows.

No, the failure message didn't confirm anything and isn't supposed to. Its supposed to incriminate Chiemi
The thing that you are still about the 'Chiemi touched her not the other way around', , despite Ria later even explaining what the king is, actually proofs that the anime did a bad job there.

Originally Posted by orion

Actually, the King could have been in one of the cellphones or other electronic equipment with memory in the room and would be in the class. The King just wouldn't be a flesh and bone member of the class. It could be like The Major. The majority of its "self" is in the Cloud and it downloads parts of itself into any convenient electronic storage device in the class.

If they were following that theory, then Nami should have touched every cellphone, tablet, memory stick, computer, tv, projector, iPod, wireless device etc in the classroom or belonging to a classmate.

Since Ria should have done that before she died (aka she can't do it anymore. I'll put it under spoiler tags just in case they didn't mention it. Which is a mute point though as if they didn't they totally skipped it without a chance to recover as the character that should have solved this mystery is now dead.

Spoiler for King Location(Should have been said by Ria prior to her death):

The virus is mainly located on Chiemi's phone.

I just hope they won't omit Chiemi's death too...

[Kanon]

I can confirm your spoiler was omitted in the anime. The rest was explained well though, it just seems like BWTraveller thinks Ria was wrong about what the King was.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I can confirm your spoiler was omitted in the anime. The rest was explained well though, it just seems like BWTraveller thinks Ria was wrong about what the King was.

At least from what I saw when skipping through it they also left out the actual reason why Ria wanted to check everyones phone and moreover held some of the girl's phones hostage.
Basically, everytime someone died their phones would get singular letters that would form a message.

Obviously Ria was missing the messages Noubaki's group collected.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

At least from what I saw when skipping through it they also left out the actual reason why Ria wanted to check everyones phone and moreover held some of the girl's phones hostage.
Basically, everytime someone died their phones would get singular letters that would form a message.

Obviously Ria was missing the messages Noubaki's group collected.

No, they did mention that as well.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

No, the failure message didn't confirm anything and isn't supposed to. Its supposed to incriminate Chiemi
The thing that you are still about the 'Chiemi touched her not the other way around', , despite Ria later even explaining what the king is, actually proofs that the anime did a bad job there.

It does incriminate Chiemi, along with all the other characters in the classroom, though mostly Chiemi and Ria as those are the only two one could reasonably argue might not have been "touched". "The King is in the classroom" was clearly meant as incriminating implication.

Since Ria should have done that before she died (aka she can't do it anymore. I'll put it under spoiler tags just in case they didn't mention it. Which is a mute point though as if they didn't they totally skipped it without a chance to recover as the character that should have solved this mystery is now dead.

Spoiler for King Location(Should have been said by Ria prior to her death):

The virus is mainly located on Chiemi's phone.

I just hope they won't omit Chiemi's death too...

No, I do not recall that bit of information being given in the episode. But I don't see how relevant it is. Ria's theory was fundamentally flawed on multiple points from the start. For one thing, it hinges on the concept of suggestion, that a person who reads a suggestion might feel such a strong psychological impact from it that it'll actually happen, constricting their throats when a text says they're going to choke. Even if this would work for the crazy deaths that occur, some deaths occurred without the presence of cell phones or after the victim fell asleep. A person who either didn't have their phone or was already asleep and thus couldn't read it would not be able to experience the suggestion, and therefore the concept of their death being the result of a psychosomatic response simply doesn't work.

More to the point however is the village. Nobuaki desperately wanted to go to that village because of how it was said that before the village was sealed up something weird happened there, not involving cell phone messages but slips of paper. The first King's Game didn't involve cell phones, and so it could not be anything as simple as a "virus hidden on people's phones". It seems far more likely that Ria was sorely mistaken on this point. Even more so when she managed to completely eliminate the virus BEFORE a message was sent punishing her for interference. The virus might have been a tool the King was using, or a ruse, but it doesn't really look like it was the actual King. It still looks like the King is fairly likely to be a human, whether we're talking about a human with conscious control over the orders or one who's as much at the mercy to the power working through her/him as everyone else.

[AC-Phoenix]

Rias theory seems flawed because they decided to randomly change the story for unknown reasons.
Ria already knew about the village as she was there. I got no freaking idea why they decided to move that to the sequel instead of the prequel where it belonged to.
And no she didn't.
It was a trap (something Ria even mentions btw).

In the past it was indeed played with paper letters, hence there was a physical King.
Ria was also imho not burning at all and it was in other peoples imagination due to having read that message.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

It does incriminate Chiemi, along with all the other characters in the classroom, though mostly Chiemi and Ria as those are the only two one could reasonably argue might not have been "touched". "The King is in the classroom" was clearly meant as incriminating implication.


<snip>

More to the point however is the village. Nobuaki desperately wanted to go to that village because of how it was said that before the village was sealed up something weird happened there, not involving cell phone messages but slips of paper. The first King's Game didn't involve cell phones, and so it could not be anything as simple as a "virus hidden on people's phones". It seems far more likely that Ria was sorely mistaken on this point. Even more so when she managed to completely eliminate the virus BEFORE a message was sent punishing her for interference. The virus might have been a tool the King was using, or a ruse, but it doesn't really look like it was the actual King. It still looks like the King is fairly likely to be a human, whether we're talking about a human with conscious control over the orders or one who's as much at the mercy to the power working through her/him as everyone else.

It didn't look like Chiemi had her phone in the classroom so touching her would not set off any alarms.

Also, anti-virus software are not 100% effective irl. The King could have put a dormant virus on the system to kill the attacker if attacked.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by orion

It didn't look like Chiemi had her phone in the classroom so touching her would not set off any alarms.

Also, anti-virus software are not 100% effective irl. The King could have put a dormant virus on the system to kill the attacker if attacked.

She had it in the classroom, the phone itself wasn't touched though.
That being said, it doesn't make Chiemi innocent at all.

I'll write up a theory on that regard once they show how she actually died, rather than a Noubaki Nightmare.

[BWTraveller]

I can't really speak of a theory uniting all parts of this multi-series work, as I've only seen the anime. and anyway, this thread is about the anime. While it's not entirely impossible, it really seems like a stretch for the author to have made it so that a program capable of finding and erasing the virus would confirm 100% removal but actually fail. It also seems like a very odd stretch to have a King's Game with a physical King and then have all the subsequent games come from a virus with completely unknown origins. What, did the King decide to become a programmer and write up the program, then set it up to identify all the individuals in a class, determine all their cell phones and infect them?

If we want to go into manga, then please tell me, can you really confirm that every last death in the manga came following the victim having seen their cell phone message? I'll have to look back over the flashbacks to see if it happens in the anime's summary of the past, but one thing I can say: the very beginning of the anime's game debunks the "autosuggestion by means of a virus" theory within its version of the world. Whether it's a "poor" rendition of the "original" world or just its own world inspired by and utilizing much of the other or even a legitimate continuation that the author does/would approve is irrelevant. Within this world, a person can be forced to die according to the methods described in a text message without having read the text and being subjected to its suggestion. Therefore, whatever the King is, it/she/he has the power to actually force the world to behave in certain ways or force people to do certain things without ANY medium of communication.

Thus, while this may be indeed a step or two separate from the manga version (again I'd have to leave that question to experts and the author), within the anime world I do think that for now they're setting things up in a way that would indeed make the virus likely one of possibly multiple tools the King uses while the King is a separate, non-electronic entity.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I can't really speak of a theory uniting all parts of this multi-series work, as I've only seen the anime. and anyway, this thread is about the anime. While it's not entirely impossible, it really seems like a stretch for the author to have made it so that a program capable of finding and erasing the virus would confirm 100% removal but actually fail. It also seems like a very odd stretch to have a King's Game with a physical King and then have all the subsequent games come from a virus with completely unknown origins. What, did the King decide to become a programmer and write up the program, then set it up to identify all the individuals in a class, determine all their cell phones and infect them?

If we want to go into manga, then please tell me, can you really confirm that every last death in the manga came following the victim having seen their cell phone message? I'll have to look back over the flashbacks to see if it happens in the anime's summary of the past, but one thing I can say: the very beginning of the anime's game debunks the "autosuggestion by means of a virus" theory within its version of the world. Whether it's a "poor" rendition of the "original" world or just its own world inspired by and utilizing much of the other or even a legitimate continuation that the author does/would approve is irrelevant. Within this world, a person can be forced to die according to the methods described in a text message without having read the text and being subjected to its suggestion. Therefore, whatever the King is, it/she/he has the power to actually force the world to behave in certain ways or force people to do certain things without ANY medium of communication.

Thus, while this may be indeed a step or two separate from the manga version (again I'd have to leave that question to experts and the author), within the anime world I do think that for now they're setting things up in a way that would indeed make the virus likely one of possibly multiple tools the King uses while the King is a separate, non-electronic entity.

As I said the anime does a poor job at explaining things, which is partly due to the flashbacks and the sudden change of the village scene to the sequel.

The explaination you get in the manga is pretty much that the moment you get and accept the first message(prolly the one with the rules) you are pretty much done for.
You don't even need to have your phone anymore at this point.

Especially since all cases of 'didn't have phone' I can remember without looking it up, died either through heart attacks or suicides. As far as I remember those were also more cases of 'switched their phone off'

Either way, the last two deaths seen in the anime were also rather peaceful compared to other punishments shown in the anime. The girl also still knew about the punishment from the begining it just didn't get specified into something flashy like burning up.

Rie's virus thing can easily explained with a backup or the virus hacking her counter virus btw.
All of this are things that should have been explained by dead characters or shown so clearly that people would get it without fail btw.