2013-05-04, 14:39 | Link #161 | ||||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Like Mirai Nikki has both a tsundere and a yandere (and a whole lot of more) in it's cast but good luck convincing anyone that Mirai Nikki is primarily moe. Or other shows with yandere's in them like Death note , school days and maybe code geass. So i am feigning ignorance for not calling those shows "moe shows"? Quote:
Even the characters from the Aku no Hana anime can be moe for some people despite that most people don't seem to like the art. <edit> Let's take one of my previous posts as an example Quote:
Ok, what have these shows in common aside from the subjective "moe factors" in all these shows? How is the "moe show" tag even remotely usefull to distinguish shows if these are completely different? </edit> Quote:
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2013-05-04, 15:01 | Link #162 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Well before we get carried away here, the contention about moe being related to a sort of "checklist" of entertainment is not entirely unfounded.
I think when Cyth references a show with a tsundere/yandere/genki/etc. girl all featured in it, it goes to show what the clear approach of the show is. They want to offer an array of common personality archetypes to try and appeal to the audience with bishoujo girls. Does this qualify as a moe show? For all intensive purposes, I really do think it does. There is this idea that a male audience will grow attached to these girls. This attachment can be formed in different ways, but I think this attachment is what basically amounts to a moe focused show. They expect their audience to feel a certain way about the girls being presented, and when they come prepackaged in predefined popular archetypes, selling them to their audience is that much easier. I wouldn't say that this sort of checklist, harem style show defines moe, but it is easily seen as a moe show I would say. I believe the contention here should be simply that are shows easily decipherable as "moe," but we should be very aware that they do not define moe. Moe can be broadly applied, but so can other descriptors. Just like MD geist should not be the representative of scifi in anime, I think we should also take good enough care to not represent the totality of moe shows with what what just described.
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2013-05-04, 15:09 | Link #163 | |||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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While Bakemonogatari might be a stretch for some, I cut my teeth declaring myself a fan of stuff like Moon Phase, Kanon 2006, and Sola. The term and I go way back. Quote:
I don't think she was intentionally rigging it either - though I will not she has yet to give a reason why I should adopt her definition of what moe is, rather than, say, Galbraiths's "rarified psuedo-love for a fictional character", which is much more consistent with what I think the feeling of moe is. Quote:
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2013-05-04, 15:16 | Link #164 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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In fact i can't think of any show that is not trying to, unless the show was deliberately using all of it's characters as cardboard cutouts or as "fresh meat" to get killed off (like most American slasher movies or these socalled "torture porn movies"). Quote:
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2013-05-04, 15:55 | Link #165 | ||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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2013-05-04, 16:21 | Link #166 | |||||||
reading #hikaributts
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If you have bothered reading what other people said, then nobody is denying that there are moe elements in a show but that doesn't make it a "moe show" That's like the same debate that i had in the saimoe thread of almost 2 years ago not to call Stein's;Gate a romance anime. Despite having some romantic elements in it, it's not primarily (not even secondary or tertiary) a romance anime. Quote:
Of course i am feigning ignorance. Death note, Mirai Nikki , school days and code geass are obviously moe shows. </sarcasm> Are you pretending to be ignorant yourself for not seeing that these shows are obviously not primarily targeted to people who like "moe"? Quote:
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2013-05-04, 16:55 | Link #167 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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As for the rest of your post, I see nothing other than nitpicking, misunderstandings, and things I already explained in detail in my previous posts. Forgive me for not wasting my time. |
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2013-05-04, 17:22 | Link #168 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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The fact is that you're doing exactly what I've been saying all along: making vague allusions to broad concepts, looping things into nebulous generalizations, and deliberately avoiding defining the boundaries. So we're no further ahead than we were before. Clearly, you don't have the magic answer either, despite your staggering arrogance and condescension to everyone else. And this is exactly why this debate has been going on for years with no progress or resolution (despite the fact that some people think it's so damn obvious; "why can't every just admit I'm obviously right?"). Any other challengers want to come forward and claim to have "The Answer" this time? I'm waiting with bated breath.
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2013-05-04, 18:02 | Link #169 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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As for arrogance and condescension accusations, I'm sorry if I came across that way. I approach all discussions with an open mind, believe it or not. I just didn't take anything useful from this discussion so far, as I've been on your side of the argument once a long time ago. |
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2013-05-04, 18:02 | Link #170 |
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This thread took off a bit faster than I had thought, so I'm unfortunately a fair bit behind now.
With that in mind, I'm going to make a few general observations as to why I think "moe" would be better off with a clearer and more expansive definition: 1. "Desire to protect" does a really bad job of even capturing moe as a "feeling", imo. Many of the most popular moe girls around (going by actual moe competitions like J-SaiMoe and ISML) are in narratives that don't put them in any significant danger. Why the heck would I feel a desire to protect one of the K-On girls? What exactly would I be protecting them from? Honestly, I view the "desire to protect" definition to be deeply flawed for just this reason. In my understanding of moe, Yui Hirasawa is very moe. But going by the "desire to protect" definition, she's not moe at all. She doesn't need protection! 2. There has been a rise in certain types of anime characters and shows in recent years. And these characters and shows are widely viewed as moe. Generally speaking, these types of characters and shows is what moe critics and haters are criticizing. They use the term "moe" to define it because these characters and shows are widely considered "moe". If you simply tell the moe critic and hater that s/he's using the term wrong, then that doesn't do anything to effectively defend the characters and shows that s/he's criticizing (either implicitly or explicitly). In fact, if anything, it'll usually come off as very evasive to the moe critic. Which, sad to say, will only reinforce negative stereotypes about moe and its fans in the minds of moe critics. As a moe fan myself, I don't want that. 3. The term "moe" is too popular to simply go away. And yet, if it's just some vaguely positive feeling, then its both nebulous and redundant (since there's no shortage of pre-existing English terms that can effectively capture a feeling). There's nothing that obfuscates discussion more than a widely used term that is both nebulous and redundant. 4. I think that our understanding of the anime industry becomes a bit clouded, much more than it needs to be, if we don't specify the term beyond a "feeling" definition. Shows like K-On, Lucky Star, iDOLM@STER, YuruYuri, and Love Live! all sold extremely well, and there are reasons for that. There's a certain commonality between these shows. And its a commonality that ties intricately into a broader understanding of "moe", imo. If we don't recognize that, then I think we miss much of what made KyoAni a commercial juggernaut, much of what has contributed to P.A. Works' success, and much of what drives the anime industry commercially. 5. I honestly think there's a real beauty to moe that gets lost if too much focus is put on "desire to protect". Love Live! and Saki click with me in a certain way that most other anime shows don't. And I do think it goes back to a broader understanding of "moe". If we could somehow capture this beauty in words, I think we could more effectively explain the appeal of moe to those who often criticize it. Words like "genki", "attractive", "colorful", "hopeful", "optimistic", "emotional truth", "life-affirming", "spirited", "determined", "caring", "fun-loving", and "altruistic" are all wrapped up in what I'm seeing and feeling here, but none of those words captures it all on its own. Perhaps "moe" captures it as well as any word can.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-05-04 at 18:15. |
2013-05-04, 18:18 | Link #171 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I don't even know if you know what "my side of the argument" is to say that you've once been on "my side", but that notwithstanding...
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2013-05-04, 18:26 | Link #172 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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My "definition" is an umbrella of definitions, and I'm fine with it being that. That's why I like to think there's nothing wrong with taking more freedom to labeling shows and characters as moe if enough people agree to that, while you seem to require a concise definition for it before that can happen. This is where our opinions differ.
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2013-05-04, 18:34 | Link #173 | |
On a mission
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It's just not that simple, which is why I used the MD geist analogy-- cherry picking the worst of something can make any grouping look bad. Though on the other hand, I don't really react violently to so called "weak" characters. It's not inherently sexist to create a female character that is weak and dependent on others and indeed anime has tons of both genders; it's when the story IMPOSES the idea that women must be weak, and be glorified consumables that it goes wrong. And I really can't feel a message of "stay pregnant and barefoot and in the kitchen" from any moe anime. If anything, so many of those cute girls doing cute things are actually female characters doing shit on their own without the need of men. And actually to the sexist, that would be threatening, just how people believe porn is impossible without a penis. Also, empowering a woman can also be sexist (see 90s scantily clad "heroines"). Pretty much any anime that involves excessive female on male abuse is home to this. One example that blurs the line is Tomoyo from Clannad. At first sight, her desire to be more "feminine" came across to me as pretty sexist, because enforcing gender roles on people is somewhat lame, especially when you want to turn a strong and independent woman to meld into something less threatening. But it also makes sense in context, as she always has to deal with the social expectations of those around her but in the end she always just felt more comfortable being herself so she comes across as a character with a strong and weak side. My favorite character is a tree hugging hipster, but I have no problem with that.
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2013-05-04, 19:04 | Link #174 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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But there comes a point in time when, over the course of discussion, definitions clash and it becomes important to establish a framework for exactly what you mean. Or, in other words: Quote:
Enter Triple_R's argument, which is precisely about establishing a "concise definition" for "moe". And my reaction: it's hopeless. My advice from the get-go was that if you want to carve out a box of similar content and talk about it, it's better to use a different word and just ignore "moe" and all its diverse and divergent meanings, because otherwise people will just argue about the terminology. That doesn't mean that what you're talking about might not somehow be wrapped up in this giant "moe" catch-all, but it's too damn confusing and frustrating to deal with the baggage of everyone's preconceptions.
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2013-05-04, 19:40 | Link #175 |
blinded by blood
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I'm hardly telling anyone what the definition of "moe" should be.
I'm merely saying the term has joined the ranks of "awesome," "epic," "fail" and "ermagherd" in that it has been overused to the point of meaninglessness. Not to mention nobody can seem to agree on a single definition. What is it, exactly? If you can't nail down a good definition then the term is useless for describing anything! A word that means everything is just as useless as a word that means nothing. I'm not here claiming that male anime fans are "tools of the patriarchy" or some other such radical feminist nonsense. I'm sick of seeing characters who are given specific flaws and idiosyncrasies (and yes, they are usually negative traits) expressly for the purpose of eliciting the desire to protect said character by male viewers. I'm sick of these flaws not being treated realistically. Think of one of the stereotypical "moe" tropes: the tsundere female character. How would a character like this, portrayed to this extreme, be treated in reality, by real, actual people? I can guaran-damn-tee you it'll be nothing at all like how they're treated in "moe" media. It'll be much, much worse. That sort of behavior isn't just not tolerated in the real world, it might even be considered assault!
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2013-05-04, 19:55 | Link #176 | |||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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For that problem i am going back to this post that was made earlier. Quote:
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I don't think there is anything wrong with exaggerated and sometimes unrealistic characters in fiction. That's why it's a work of fiction. In real life I don't expect to see orphan boys growing up into gritty crimefighters in silly costimes |
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2013-05-04, 20:14 | Link #177 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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I have no problem with the definition of moé encompassing art style, type of show, element of a show, type of character, element of a character, or a feeling so long as the user makes the context clear. What I do take issue with is mislabeling. True Tears has moé but it's not a moé anime, for example. Fist of the North Star has none of the moé aesthetic or literacy but it's possible to feel moé for the characters. Puella Magi Madoka Magica has all of the aesthetics but none of the literacy. Shows that have moé as an aesthetic and part of its literacy like K-On! can also be called slice-of-life if you wanted to avoid confusion.
Buuut what does slice-of-life mean? /rimshot
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2013-05-04, 20:24 | Link #178 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This is a bit of topic but yeah, anime characters are not realistic, they are idealistic.
If it wasn't so people wouldn't say that 2D is better than 3D. And that doesn't involve female character only nor male-oriented anime only. Hell shoujo manga are even worse in their depiction of "male characters", and don't let me get started on how realistic are the gay couples of BL. Characters like the quartet of K-on or the ones from Hidamari Sketch which many people consider "moe" aren't realistic at all, and that's precisely why people like them. I've even read somewhere the statement that "moe doesn't exist in 3D form", which I bet some people won't agree with, but it makes a good point on how anime characters aren't realistic.
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2013-05-04, 20:48 | Link #179 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Down the endless path of drawing lines in the sand again, under the guise of stopping "mislabelling". But how do you even know if it's right or wrong, other than "this is what I think makes sense"? Are we going to have a vote to try to determine the "consensus"? Oh god... they're dram-- don't even get me started...
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2013-05-04, 21:20 | Link #180 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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But at least this topic cleared the misconception that there was no misconception. We're not any closer to a goal than we were in 2006 but at least we're honest about it now!
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