Are Some People Taking Sales Charts Too Seriously When Gauging Anime Lately?

[Kaioshin Sama]

This is sort of a topic I've wanted to approach for a while, but never quite got around to it. Now I think is a better time than ever considering the number of sales and merchandise related threads that are popping up on this site and others.

First let me start off by briefly explaining what I mean in asking the topic question and my own personal perspective on the matter. With recent innovations like the Stalker point system as well as regular weekly briefs from anime forums and news sites access to information on things like Blu-Ray and DVD sales per volume over in Japan are readily available which has lead to an increased interest in mulling over and trying to discuss what these numbers mean for the future of anime as well as how popular shows one is interested in appear to be. This is all quite interesting, but I personally think it has gotten a little out of hand and taken too much as a qualitative measure of anime versus other anime.

What I mean by that is I often see people taking these numbers and rather than using them in the context which they were meant for which in my opinion is simply record keeping and insight into what people are buying, instead using them to imply all sorts of far reaching insinuations like x show is "the best of the season because it sold the most units" or "y show bombed therefore it shows it just wasn't very good and therefore irrelevant", but what such comments fail to take into account is that there are more measures of a shows quality than just how well it sells, such as what it does for one personally entertainment wise (To me a heartfelt, honest and well thought out appreciation or critical piece for a show that highlights it's individual qualities and shortcomings says far more about it's place in the grand scheme of audience feedback than any number next to the title ever could) and factors that people are failing to take into account when looking at this charts such as the fact that market tastes/trends in Japan simply may not allow for certain types of shows to find a large buying audience. It doesn't mean that these are bad shows and that people shouldn't pay them any mind or even that there's little to no audience for them in Japan, just that it might not be targeted at the people most likely to make $60-80 Blu-Ray purchase.

That's just one example of how I think Sales Charts might be taken a little too seriously and used to make far reaching claims though. Others include this idea of the Manabi Line which seems to be this ever sliding scale somewhere between the region of 2,000-5,000 units per volume that is apparently supposed to be an important indicator of whether a show made a profit or not, but fails to take into account numerous factors such as production expenses, volume counts and price variances among others that may set the margin for profit versus loss somewhere entirely different than an arbitrary number based off of an anime that aired half a decade ago would indicate.

None of this is to say that Sales Charts don't have their use nor that people ought to not pay attention to them, just that IMO we're looking at a bit of a slippery slope where I think people are placing too much stock in them and allowing numbers rather than words to make arguments and points for them in matters where a little more insight ought to be expected and it's something that concerns me a little as someone that values thoughtful qualitative analysis as much as numericall statistics. Anyway what do others think about the matter?

[Ithekro]

Not sure about most things, but for something like Space Battleship Yamato 2199, it seems to be doing quite well in sales, and yet seems to be hardly talked about at all (Chapter 3 (episodes 7-10) placed second in both BD and DVD charts on Oricon this last week with about 28,000 sold between the two media types).

Though it seems to only really do well the first week or two and then drop off entirely, as it seems to hold steady around 35,000 units sold (from what I can tell) per chapter.

However, in the English speaking world, there is very little discussion on this anime. Probably because it is an Theater/OVA series that is not on TV yet (and it comes out every three months or so). With rumor that it will be on TV eventually. But even then, if the episodes come out at the present rate, the 26 episode series will not conclude until Fall 2013.

In fact the two places with the most discussion seem to be here on Animesuki and on StarBlazers.com (with seems to be the only place that is actually following it at all with interviews and magazine translations)...soon to be Ourstarblazers.com instead. (most discussions there are on their Facebook page...and quite honestly, the conversations seem more detailed here on Animesuki than on Facebook).

[Blaat]

I voted for somewhat important I only care about sale charts when I want to know if I show I like is doing well and has a chance to get a sequel.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I think what many people taking seriously from those charts and sales are the “survivability” of the series. For example, if it’s a one-cour adaptation anime (from LN or manga), fans can prepare themselves for the possibility of the anime ended abruptly or have another season/cour to continue the story by looking at the sales/chart. It’s just a matter of anticipation imo.

As for those who claim “high-sales=high-quality”, yeah, that’s a narrow-minded way of judging and comparing anime quality. It’s like saying Scary Movie, Epic Movie, Meet the Spartans, etc have better quality than movies like Little Miss Sunshine just because they get more money from the tickets.

[Triple_R]

I think that there's a few reasons why a lot of emphasis is put on sales charts.

One is that it has a certain objective quality to it.

What I mean by that is that it's numerical. It's math. And math is one of the most objective things imaginable. And it's math based on something concrete and of tangible value - The number of copies that fans were willing to part with their money for. That gives it a certain weight that a numerical rating doesn't. Me giving Madoka Magica 9/10 means a helluva lot less than 50,000 or more fans parting with their money to buy the PMMM DVD/Blu-Rays.

So there is value to selling a lot. But I do think it's possible to overstate it.


Here's my general take:

If something is selling a lot, it's doing something right. It's filling some sort of desire/need in a way that resonates with paying fans. That doesn't necessarily mean it's thoroughly great (and it could even be deeply flawed), but it's legitimately strong somewhere. I will admit I enjoy trying to find out what "strong kernel" makes shows I'm not that fond of sell well.

If something is selling little, it's doing something wrong. It either lacks a certain key element that inspires people to buy it, or it has element(s) that are turning people off. Sometimes this might be largely a failure of marketing, but there's some weakness there. I will admit I find it interesting to try to figure out why a show I liked didn't sell well.

But beyond that, I don't think that sales charts indicate much about quality. I certainly wouldn't think that the five best-selling anime shows of the year are automatically the five best anime shows of the year. There may well be some overlap, but I don't think that sales charts are that tightly tied to quality.


The greatest value I see in sales charts is how they tend to be predictive of where the anime industry will (eventually) go next. LN and VN adaptations didn't sprout from out of nowhere, as successes like Haruhi/Shana/Monogatari's and the Key titles helped pave the way for them. Certain popular characters (and character types) tend to drive future productions too.

Some characters even get expys of themselves created ...

[OceanBlue]

I agree that a huge problem with the Manabi line is that people don't put sales into context when considering profitability. There are plenty of shows that wouldn't seem successful based on volume sales but would be considered successes in terms of franchise promotion due to the merchandise they push or due to a boost in manga/light novel sales after the anime airs.

I also think that most people who argue that sales = quality had already reached a conclusion about the quality of something before they actually know the sales . They just need an objective stance to argue with.

Edit: Oh, I haven't really seen an increase in people overvaluing sales data though. Maybe it's just the sites I visit. But overvaluing preorder/stalker data? That sounds even more unreliable and tumultuous!

[relentlessflame]

I think there are people who pay attention to sales figures, but also are generally researched enough to know what it means in context. And then there are people who use sales figures as a blunt weapon to win arguments, and often don't care to understand the context any more than it furthers the argument they're making. (They'll even make opposite arguments about sales figures if it suits whatever point they're trying to make at the time.) I think the former is obviously fine, and the latter is obviously an annoyance. Having access to more data is a good thing, but it also means that people are more likely to try to twist that data without really knowing what it means.

As some others have said, I do think there is value in considering sales as one metric. It is often, but not always, correlated to both a) shows that are likely to get sequels, and b) the sorts of shows that we are likely to see more of 1-2 years down the road. But sales aren't the be-all end-all either. As many have said, there's more to a show's overall profitability than just its Japanese Blu-Ray/DVD sales. There are certain sorts/genres of anime that basically never do that well in terms of Blu-Ray/DVD sales, but they still get made because it's just one part of their mixed-media marketing strategy that may be more about selling books, toys, games, advertising, or who knows what else.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But beyond that, I don't think that sales charts indicate much about quality. I certainly wouldn't think that the five best-selling anime shows of the year are automatically the five best anime shows of the year. There may well be some overlap, but I don't think that sales charts are that tightly tied to quality.

(I'm using this comment more as a bounce-off point, so it's not really a direct response to you.)

I often wish people would get over the very notion of "Objective Quality" in entertainment as something generally worth debating. What really matters most is "will I enjoy it?" Sometimes that's tied to objective qualities or certain common/known writing patterns and principles... but often times it isn't. And I don't know that anything productive has ever resulted over people trying to argue whether or not they have "objectively good taste". So, to me, if people try to use sales to speak to a show's "Objective Quality", I think the main problem isn't their use of the sales figures, but the fact that they believe it's even worth having a conversation about Quality in that way. Really, who cares...

Of course, as was alluded to, it is obviously gratifying for a show you like to sell well because that means you're generally more likely to see more like it. So from a personal perspective, that's good for you. But gloating about that or bashing it over people's heads is pointless.

I've enjoyed a lot of shows that have been horrible sellers, but have also enjoyed shows that sold fantastically well. All that says is that I'm an individual with my own unique tastes and preferences, and that's perfectly fine. And, incidentally, I haven't run out of shows to watch either way by any means. As I said recently:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But, in response to the "those damn otaku" complaint that always comes up, it almost always goes the same way:

Show someone doesn't like sells well: "Those Damn Otaku"
Show someone likes doesn't sell well: "Those Damn Otaku"
Show someone doesn't like doesn't sell well: "The Show Deserved It"
Show someone likes sells well: "I Have Good Taste!"

Totally self-serving.

[SeijiSensei]

Frankly, how well a show sells to the narrow audience of Japanese anime purchasers matters not a whit to me. Of course, I would like to see the occasional sequel of a show I liked as happened with Chihayafuru, but if it hadn't happened I would hardly have been heartbroken.

I watch practically no shows that appeal to "otaku" interests at this point. Of my current selection I can't think of any. Kamisama Hajimemashita is the closest thing to a "mainstream" anime I'm watching at the moment, and it's a full-blown shoujo affair. Space Brothers is "mainstream" in the non-otaku sense, and I was glad to see the anime give the manga a sales boost, but at 48 episodes, I don't expect sales of the anime will affect much of anything. Shin Sekai Yori is hardly mainstream either, I suspect, and its being a novel makes a sequel is very unlikely. (OK, I forgot Sakamichi no Apollon and Tsuritama, but noitaminA is not very influential these days either from what I can see.)

Having no interest in shows about high school and adolescence removes a large chunk of what is on offer from my radar screen. I watched Chihayafuru because of strong encouragement from friends here whose opinions I trust. I believe that is the only show with a school setting I've seen in the past year. (There is the occasional school scene in Kamisama, but they play only a small role in the story.) Before that it was probably Madoka. I try to watch at least an episode or two of every show with adult characters. I may return to Psycho-Pass at some point, but so far I'm pretty lukewarm about it.

Since the shows I watch hardly ever sell well in Japan, sales figures do not really matter to me. I'm pretty used to seeing my favorite shows never get an R1 release either -- Mononoke, Dennou Coil, and Nodame Cantabile are three good examples. So even if Japanese sales figures influence R1 licensing decisions (and I'm not sure that they do), that would only matter if the shows get licensed.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

What I mean by that is I often see people taking these numbers and rather than using them in the context which they were meant for which in my opinion is simply record keeping and insight into what people are buying, instead using them to imply all sorts of far reaching insinuations like x show is "the best of the season because it sold the most units" or "y show bombed therefore it shows it just wasn't very good and therefore irrelevant"

You forgot one other thing.

If I dislike an anime and that anime sells well, that means the Japanese have shit taste, and anyone who likes that piece of otaku-pandering moeshit should be ashamed for joining the mindless bandwagon and contributing to the cancer killing the animation industry.

And if I like an anime that sells badly, that also means the Japanese have shit taste, and anyone who doesn't like this mature and sophisticated anime (for mature and sophisticated people such as myself) is a foolish troglodyte who can't appreciate a true masterpiece and only watches otaku-pandering moeshit.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I often wish people would get over the very notion of "Objective Quality" in entertainment as something generally worth debating. What really matters most is "will I enjoy it?" Sometimes that's tied to objective qualities or certain common/known writing patterns and principles... but often times it isn't. And I don't know that anything productive has ever resulted over people trying to argue whether or not they have "objectively good taste". So, to me, if people try to use sales to speak to a show's "Objective Quality", I think the main problem isn't their use of the sales figures, but the fact that they believe it's even worth having a conversation about Quality in that way. Really, who cares...

I know this is a tangental discussion, so I'll try to be brief about it, but I have to say that I think there's some value in having a conversation about Quality in this way.

When anime shows disappoint and/or fail to entertain much of the audience, a lot of the time it comes down to generally poor writing (at least in my experience). For example, with Guilty Crown, I think a lot of the reason why it disappointed a lot of people comes down to fairly basic writing issues (certain characters not being well-developed enough, certain subplots not being fully fleshed out with satisfying conclusions, some character evolutions being very hard to swallow, etc...).

Now, not everybody will value this the same, but trends in viewer response are often seen overtime. Being generally well-written certainly doesn't guarantee that a show will be entertaining, but it definitely helps, so I think it's something worth discussing.

But in fairness to you, I don't think it's terribly productive to, say, have a big long argument pitting Clannad against Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Because the two shows are aiming for wildly different core appeals, so it's like comparing apples and oranges. So that sort of discussion is of very limited worth, and can even be counter-productive.

But discussing the literary strengths/weakness of an anime show that has at least some serious plot to speak of? I personally see some value in that.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Not sure about most things, but for something like Yamato 2199, it seems to be doing quite well in sales, and yet seems to be hardly talked about at all (Chapter 3 (episodes 7-10) placed second in both BD and DVD charts on Oricon this last week with about 28,000 sold between the two media types).

Well see this is one of those cases where I think sales might actually be able to tell a story that otherwise couldn't be told. Obviously Yamato is a cultural landmark in Japan and it would make sense that a remake would be hot over there but here it's known only as Starblazers a show that aired on TV here in the 80's which while popular never really had the followup that something like Transformers and Voltron did that I know of. It makes sense that it would be popular on Starblazer.com and on the current incarnation of Animesuki which is almost like a melting pot of differing interests, but yeah without a TV run and not being the latest big thing on the block it kind of doesn't surprise me that it wouldn't catch on bigger over here. Indeed the only way most would even know it's a thing probably would be those annual sales reports on new sites.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If something is selling a lot, it's doing something right. It's filling some sort of desire/need in a way that resonates with paying fans. That doesn't necessarily mean it's thoroughly great (and it could even be deeply flawed), but it's legitimately strong somewhere. I will admit I enjoy trying to find out what "strong kernel" makes shows I'm not that fond of sell well.

If something is selling little, it's doing something wrong. It either lacks a certain key element that inspires people to buy it, or it has element(s) that are turning people off. Sometimes this might be largely a failure of marketing, but there's some weakness there. I will admit I find it interesting to try to figure out why a show I liked didn't sell well.

I don't necessarily feel this is true in all cases. On the first point the thing being done right could just as easily be a well told story or production values as it could be something as simple as the imouto character locking down a relationship with Onii-chan. In some cases it's really hard to tell. On the second point it could just as easily be something like a nonsensical story as it could be a show just refusing to include certain elements which while they could potentially attract further interest and purchasing power to a story could just as easily damage the integrity of the story and characters.

The greatest value I see in sales charts is how they tend to be predictive of where the anime industry will (eventually) go next. LN and VN adaptations didn't sprout from out of nowhere, as successes like Haruhi/Shana/Monogatari's and the Key titles helped pave the way for them. Certain popular characters (and character types) tend to drive future productions too.

Some characters even get expys of themselves created ...

I have no idea what you are talking about sir....but seriously I do think there is a bit of truth to this. If something becomes a huge hit there will be copy cats, it's how the entertainment industry works. I think Evangelion, Gundam Seed and Macross Frontier have shaped the formula for how mecha series are executed and the elements and tropes they include nowadays for better and worse for example and likewise it's hard not to see the sudden increase in magical girl shows post Madoka nor say the Tall, Dark and Bishoujo aloof action girl female heroine archetypes sudden upswing and claim it isn't a response to the success of that show and breakout characters like Akemi Homura among others.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But in fairness to you, I don't think it's terribly productive to, say, have a big long argument pitting Clannad against Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Because the two shows are aiming for wildly different core appeals, so it's like comparing apples and oranges. So that sort of discussion is of very limited worth, and can even be counter-productive.

Well there's two issues with doing something like that that I can see, one you've already mentioned, the other is that it is to basically imply that one set of tastes is inherently better than another or "right", which in a way is like a slap across the face to an entire groups interests and reasons for enjoying anime. There are indeed certain types of anime that are so very different in their appeal that even if they invoke similar emotions and discussions at the end of the day are best left separate and not pitted directly against each other in comparisons and contrasts. It's just kind of...obnoxious.

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

I also think that most people who argue that sales = quality had already reached a conclusion about the quality of something before they actually know the sales . They just need an objective stance to argue with.

That would indeed appear to be the case.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I often wish people would get over the very notion of "Objective Quality" in entertainment as something generally worth debating. What really matters most is "will I enjoy it?" Sometimes that's tied to objective qualities or certain common/known writing patterns and principles... but often times it isn't. And I don't know that anything productive has ever resulted over people trying to argue whether or not they have "objectively good taste". So, to me, if people try to use sales to speak to a show's "Objective Quality", I think the main problem isn't their use of the sales figures, but the fact that they believe it's even worth having a conversation about Quality in that way. Really, who cares...

You'd think what you've stated would be given common sense, but I've had some tough times arguing that very point to some people historically. Nowadays I realize that obviously I was wasting my time, but yeah that's about the way I see it too. It's all well and good if a billion people love something to death and think it's the greatest and spent a ton of money on it, but if it doesn't do anything for me personally then it just doesn't plain and simple and there's really nothing either myself or others can do about it really.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I don't necessarily feel this is true in all cases. On the first point the thing being done right could just as easily be a well told story or production values as it could be something as simple as the imouto character locking down a relationship with Onii-chan. In some cases it's really hard to tell. On the second point it could just as easily be something like a nonsensical story as it could be a show just refusing to include certain elements which while they could potentially attract further interest and purchasing power to a story could just as easily damage the integrity of the story and characters.

You're right. It probably would be more accurate if I wrote "If an anime is selling a lot, it's doing something right... in the eyes of a lot of anime fans".

How much value an anime fan attaches to that probably depends on how much they identify with their fellow anime fans.


Great image response by the way.

[Marcus H.]

It is important sometimes, but only when assessing how much of the rest of the viewership (read: the paying fans of a series) gave back to the show. That doesn't apply on every series, though; some series would be better judged based on TV ratings instead of DVD/BD sales.

That said, I find myself guilty of calling Fractale's 883 "deserving of the man who is supposed to save anime".

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When anime shows disappoint and/or fail to entertain much of the audience, a lot of the time it comes down to generally poor writing (at least in my experience). For example, with Guilty Crown, I think a lot of the reason why it disappointed a lot of people comes down to fairly basic writing issues (certain characters not being well-developed enough, certain subplots not being fully fleshed out with satisfying conclusions, some character evolutions being very hard to swallow, etc...).

TL;DR…

 

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You'd think what you've stated would be given common sense, but I've had some tough times arguing that very point to some people historically. Nowadays I realize that obviously I was wasting my time, but yeah that's about the way I see it too. It's all well and good if a billion people love something to death and think it's the greatest and spent a ton of money on it, but if it doesn't do anything for me personally then it just doesn't plain and simple and there's really nothing either myself or others can do about it really.

Well, in fairness to those people, sometimes there's value in just stating your case and moving on. While it's true that there's no accounting for taste, you shouldn't really expect the billion people who like something to care all that much about the "you" who doesn't. You shouldn't also presume that the people who like it lack objectivity just because they don't see the same flaws you do or weigh them on the same scale. Otherwise, yeah, I expect you would be basically wasting your time in the end.

[Eragon]

For me sales figures are only good for showing current trends in Japan. Its nice to see the shows you like sell well but that's as far as it goes for me. For me, any conclusion extracted from sales figures over the quality of a show is purely for self gratification.

[bhl88]

10,000 <- good
Manabi line <- average
less than Manabi line <- crap

I do consider this one... and another considered is the thread amount.

[Violet Rabbit]

Somewhat important I guess? I only ever care because it can sometimes show if something will get a sequel, but some anime take TV ratings, merchandise, etc more into account as others have said.

If I like a show, I like it, but I can dislike a show that sells well. Though, sometimes it does feel like my tastes are more like Japan than western fans.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Tempester

You forgot one other thing.

If I dislike an anime and that anime sells well, that means the Japanese have shit taste, and anyone who likes that piece of otaku-pandering moeshit should be ashamed for joining the mindless bandwagon and contributing to the cancer killing the animation industry.

And if I like an anime that sells badly, that also means the Japanese have shit taste, and anyone who doesn't like this mature and sophisticated anime (for mature and sophisticated people such as myself) is a foolish troglodyte who can't appreciate a true masterpiece and only watches otaku-pandering moeshit.

But, but, what if your like matches their sales?

I only use sales charts for pointing out the obvious, industry trends, ect. The day I start to account a show's profit as a substantial measure of quality or even what to watch will be a sad day indeed...

[Master_Yoma]

Its all important becuase if it sells will there mite get anther season

[aohige]

The biggest problem of fandom (outside of Japan) is, they tend to try and put every franchise on equal ground with only the disc sales in perspective, neglecting all other crucial elements that amounts to success of a franchise. Because they don't see them.

When in reality, the entire FRANCHISE is what gauges the success.
For example, mainstream shows that focus on young kids (One Piece, Naruto, Detective Conan, PreCure, etc) as their base consumer market really doesn't give rats-ass about DVD/BD sales. The franchise is much, MUCH bigger than that. In fact, many of them tends to have low disc sales as kids are more likely to spend their cash on toys.
Same goes for Gundam franchise. A large chunk of profit Bandai gets are from plastic models and other action toys.

Then there are anime that boosts the sales of the orignal manga by multifold (often seen on doroku/nichigo time slot) and the success is measured more by the overall boost than the actual disc sales.

Western fans simply don't see any of this, so many of them only focus on what they see. Disc sales figures.
And thus get a completely wrong impression of success compared to reality.