[Manga] Chapter 332 Discussion

[S_C_L-1]

what were the 2 other pieces tho? if one is a "rook", and the other is say, a pawn, then he would take out the rook first. keeping him out of danger from the pawn. who could then be dealt with by the other pieces on the board (Ino, Chouji, Kakashi)

[f00l]

i don't know if this was posted yet and if not everyone seemed to miss a very interesting part in this chapter. Itachi did not seem very happy to know that they were going to get naruto.

[0TaKu0]

Please try and excuse my tyopign as Iam some what drunk from the party I was at earlier.

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Thank you Miss Rave for changing your avatar. The previous one depicting the gay orgy was really too much.

Haha, the personyou should be thanking is I, I made both of them for her. None the less, I do feel the same wayas you haha.

Originally Posted by miss rave

I'll get a more graphic one next time .

Please don’t do it Rave, >_>; don’t listen to Suna he'sjust kidding *panics*.

Originally Posted by miss rave

He's positioned himself like a Knight but if he takes out one of them then the other one can get him or something. That was what was foreshadowed in 330.

Well considering we have onyl gotten a little taste of Shikamaru's intelligence. Who's to say he did not consider all of it? Azuma did have a talk with Shikamaru about how his piece is and the whole "one must sacrifice" deal.

It didn’t haveto be foreshadowing it could have been a flash back shown to let the reader's know that Shikamaru had already figured out a way to do this without sacrificing him self, that’s how much of a Geniu's heis. He looked at every angle and the plan was conceived downto a "T".

My point is, not all foreshadowing is bad, or work's against the one who the foreshadowing is meant for. Also it could have be just interpreted as a flash back, as to how he went about his planning (priority 1 no sacrificing).

[S_C_L-1]

"Sacrifices are bothersome" is how he would most likely say it.

We are talking about a guy who beat himself into a depression because ppl got hurt on his first mission as a leader.

He might be lazy, but he takes responsibility very seriously.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

Please try and excuse my tyopign as Iam some what drunk from the party I was at earlier.

This isnt good enough. Friday night I was so drunk and high that I woke up the next morning still drunk. 6 beers and 2 of some really hard liquor in that order in about 45 minutes. Lets just say The fact that you could actually see the letters on your keyboard is good enough proof that you didnt get as drunk as I was ...

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

Haha, the personyou should be thanking is I, I made both of them for her. None the less, I do feel the same wayas you haha.

No ... we should be stabbing you for that. Any more yaoi avatars and Im assembling a team of phreakz to hit your website up with me. Im in a software engineering program at the University so you really dont wanna know who I can scoop up for this job.


That beng said ... the matching avatars are cute.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

This isnt good enough. Friday night I was so drunk and high that I woke up the next morning still drunk. 6 beers and 2 of some really hard liquor in that order in about 45 minutes. Lets just say The fact that you could actually see the letters on your keyboard is good enough proof that you didnt get as drunk as I was ...

Yeah tell meabout it but I olny drink to feel nice, not to get insanely drunk cause if you do that, its hard to payattention to all the other stuff around you (girls). A lotof the times you even make a fool of your self trustme ive seen enough guys do it.

Originally Posted by MobiuS

No ... we should be stabbing you for that. Any more yaoi avatars and Im assembling a team of phreakz to hit your website up with me. Im in a software engineering program at the University so you really dont wanna know who I can scoop up for this job.


That beng said ... the matching avatars are cute.

Noooooooo you gotit wrong mang hahaha Im theone who made the her the NEW avtar and sig forher to use instead of the yaoi one. So the yaoi is gone *thanksgod* (by bothj I ment the new avatar and sig) As you can see I'm still somewhat wasted ^________^.

[MobiuS]

I didnt intend to get that drunk either but ... its a really long story I dont know how to explain. Ok I misunderstood. Sorry bout that. And yea ... have fun detoxing. My saturday was a b*tch because of that.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by KatonMakai

-But doesn't the attempt itself count? Think of it this way: I throw 3 punches at my opponent. The 1st one hits their abdomen, the 2nd one misses because they dodged it at the last second, and the 3rd punch lands right in their jaw. The same could be said about Kakashi's MS. He hit Deidara once (blowing off his last arm), the other one destroyed the clay bird but it missed Deidara himself (I think, not really positive since it's been 80+ chapters since), and the last one demolished the clay-bomb-bunshin.

The clay bird was destroyed by Naruto's Rasengan. Kakashi had to stop to use his jutsu in middle course before he actually "punched" his target. I'm sure to maintain the MS itself to create the barrier uses a fair bit of chakra as well but technically he didn't throw the 2nd blow.
Hence why I said 2 use and one attempt.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The clay bird was destroyed by Naruto's Rasengan. Kakashi had to stop to use his jutsu in middle course before he actually "punched" his target. I'm sure to maintain the MS itself to create the barrier uses a fair bit of chakra as well but technically he didn't throw the 2nd blow.
Hence why I said 2 use and one attempt.

Looking at the chapter (276) it doesn't say if he completed the jutsu or not, only that Deidara flew out of the targetting range. However, even after Deidara had left the range, Kakashi still had Mangekyou Sharingan on, and didn't turn it off until later.

[Ero-Senn1n]

I guess we talk about chakra consumption here, and the side effects of MS. Even if it's a failed attempt i think it had it's price in terms of both chakra and mental/eye strain. I would say 2.5 MS jutsu uses for Kakashi, while Itachi had 3. But we don't know if the 3 MS jutsu have the same chakra consumption and side effects or for example amaterasu has double chakra consumption but has much less strain on the brain than tsukiyomi, or amaterasu deteriorates eyesight while tsukiyomi much less, etc...

I think that the side effects and chakra consuption are mainly because of the use of the jutsu and not the activation of MS in the case of true Uchiha, and all that activation struggle for Kakashi was just because he is not an Uchiha, he cannot even turn off his normal sharingan, so the activation problem is logical in his case.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm sure to maintain the MS itself to create the barrier uses a fair bit of chakra as well but technically he didn't throw the 2nd blow.

Originally Posted by Yogi

Kakashi still had Mangekyou Sharingan on, and didn't turn it off until later.

Hmm, ok even if he didn't throw the second blow, or didn't turn off his MS till later, he still molded the chakra right? What I mean is, if you mold more chakra then required for a jutsu, the left over fizzles out and is wasted. So if you mold chakra for a Jutsu, and perform the required hand signs for it then stop in the middle and decide to cancel out.

Would the chakra not fizzle out? and it would be counted as a miss? (correct me if im wrong)

I think the real question is,

Is Kakashi's technique directly connected to the MS? As in, it is an effect of the MS, and it pull's out (or molds) chakra when ready to "take a shot", the shot could be stopped and saved if the user wishes. (kind of like not pulling the trigger on a gun)

Or

Is Kakashi's technique, Jutsu related? Part of the MS but a requires its own preparations, its own molding of Chakra and IS its own Jutsu, cause that would mean it was a miss because his Chakra would fizzle out if he readied the Jutsu then canceled or stopped, no?.

[Kotengu]

I thinks that dojutsu(and prolly all blood limits) don't really require hand seals to use. If we think back Byakugan was used with and without hand seals, Haku's ice abilites were used with 0, 1, and 2 hands, and kimmimaro used his bones without making seals as well.

Using seals is prolly just a way to focus on doing the jutsu. For more compicated jutsu, like usuing MS without the blood limit, seals would prolly help alot. But for regular stuff like just turning it on, jutsu's might not really be nessesary, and might only really serve to maximize chakra efficiency.

I'm not even sure that doing regular jutsu's require hand seals cuz oro piggy backed off of kabuto doing summon jutsu, and naruto doesn't even really use the hand seals for kagebushin during combat anymore.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

Hmm, ok even if he didn't throw the second blow, or didn't turn off his MS till later, he still molded the chakra right? What I mean is, if you mold more chakra then required for a jutsu, the left over fizzles out and is wasted. So if you mold chakra for a Jutsu, and perform the required hand signs for it then stop in the middle and decide to cancel out.

Would the chakra not fizzle out? and it would be counted as a miss? (correct me if im wrong)

I think the real question is,

Is Kakashi's technique directly connected to the MS? As in, it is an effect of the MS, and it pull's out (or molds) chakra when ready to "take a shot", the shot could be stopped and saved if the user wishes. (kind of like not pulling the trigger on a gun)

Or

Is Kakashi's technique, Jutsu related? Part of the MS but a requires its own preparations, its own molding of Chakra and IS its own Jutsu, cause that would mean it was a miss because his Chakra would fizzle out if he readied the Jutsu then canceled or stopped, no?.

The second option seems to be the way it works. When one activates MS, they activate a jutsu associated with it. In other words Mangekyou Sharingan is not a technique by itself, but more of a category than describes jutsu associated with that ability. The easiest thing to compare it to would be elemental jutsu. For example, there's no such thing as Katon no jutsu. One can perform Katon: Gokakkyu no Jutsu or Katon: Hosenka no Jutsu, if they can utilize the fire element. So one can perform MS:Tsukuyomi or MS:Amaterasu. Even though it's not stated this way, I think it's implied that this is the way it works. So the chakra for jutsu is molded upon activation of MS and if it's not used, it would be wasted.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The second option seems to be the way it works. When one activates MS, they activate a jutsu associated with it. In other words Mangekyou Sharingan is not a technique by itself, but more of a category than describes jutsu associated with that ability. The easiest thing to compare it to would be elemental jutsu. For example, there's no such thing as Katon no jutsu. One can perform Katon: Gokakkyu no Jutsu or Katon: Hosenka no Jutsu, if they can utilize the fire element. So one can perform MS:Tsukuyomi or MS:Amaterasu. Even though it's not stated this way, I think it's implied that this is the way it works. So the chakra for jutsu is molded upon activation of MS and if it's not used, it would be wasted.

Yep, this is pretty much what I think as well. So the same goes for Itachi as goes for Kakashi.

So being that it would be wasted, would mean Kakashi did fire and miss .

[Kotengu]

Since people are talking about shogi I thought I would post some ground info and make some of my own personal observations.

1. When a player captures one of the opponent's pieces, that piece becomes a part of his or her army. Also, in shogi almost all pieces have the option of promoting to a stronger piece just by reaching the seventh rank(ranks are squares ranked horizontally in oposing possitions). An example would be your 9th rank would be my first row and 1st rank. At the beginning, each side has one king, one rook, one bishop, two lances, two knights, two silver generals, two gold generals, and nine pawns. Unlike certain other pieces, the bishops can be dropped anywhere on the board without restriction(after capture).

2. Shika was compared to the knight. The knight has only two legal moves. Either a knight jump one square forward and one square diagonally to the right, or a knight jump one square forward and one square diagonally to the left. (no bakward movement). Asuma said that shika moved like a knight. With that movement he would be immune to direct counterattacks, and would be able to promote relatively quickly without much risk. If Kazu or Hidan are the same type of piece, or are directly next to eachother they would have no practical defense against shikamaru's assault, and in theory, the should be able to pick them off one by one and get out unscathed.

3. Now for some Important facts: the gold general is a vestigial queen, and it can't be promoted(or retreat diagnaly), but it is the piece that most promote into. The important point to remember in shogi is that, given enough time, the attacking force, however small, will almost always overwhelm the defending force, however large.(indicitive of akastuki vs konoha) But the real strongest piece is the rook. Unpromoted it's just like a regular rook, but promoted it becomes a dragon and can move one square in any direction, OR all squares horizontally or vertically. Becasue of the attaking nature of the game, shogi usually ends up in a chekmate race, thereby making the dragon the strongest piece in the game.

[Kotengu]

Now the real question comes with what naruto would be. Would the kyuubi make him the ultimate attaking piece, would he be the king (which is better than the queen/gold general in shogi)? Or would he be more like a lance (wich can only move forward) that can be promoted into a gold general?

Personally I see naruto being the king because all of the other taled demons have been or are about to be captured. And used in a plan of global domination (if naruto gets hit then that's that). BUT if they get naruto and he ends up like Garra (which I would personally perfer) He might end up being the rook=> dragon because of the extreme power of his jutsus(wind chakra, rasengan, neo rasengan, summoning,. . .ect.).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Kontengu

2. Shika was compared to the knight. The knight has only two legal moves. Either a knight jump one square forward and one square diagonally to the right, or a knight jump one square forward and one square diagonally to the left. (no bakward movement). Asuma said that shika moved like a knight. With that movement he would be immune to direct counterattacks, and would be able to promote relatively quickly without much risk. If Kazu or Hidan are the same type of piece, or are directly next to eachother they would have no practical defense against shikamaru's assault, and in theory, the should be able to pick them off one by one and get out unscathed.

That's very observant info, but the comparison to the pieces in shogi should be considered a very loose analogy . Shikamaru is considered a knight because he is not very strong, but can move (that is, be used strategically) in ways no other piece can. Asuma was a pawn simply because he had to be sacrificed to protect the more important pieces. Hidan's and Kakuzu's names would make them a bishop and rook, both very powerful pieces. However in any case, the movements, strengths and weaknesses of the pieces of shogi shouldn't be literally thought of as the same limits and attributes of ninja in Naruto. I noticed this happening when people where guessing who the king piece was and immediately ruled out Naruto because the king is traditionally a weak piece.

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

the comparison to the pieces in shogi should be considered a very loose analogy . Shikamaru is considered a knight because he is not very strong, but can move (that is, be used strategically) in ways no other piece can.

I see. So losely, shika can be compared to a knight in a lot more ways. It is said in shogi that the best defensive piece is the horse and the knight (the horse being the strongest). And most of shikamaru's plans are protecting, or defensive in nature dispite the way he, or his teamates are doing attacks. Also he's been called the best at running away (retreat) more than once. All the pieces in shogi don't really have attack power (same in chess) so I was thinking Asuma ment attack power in the sense of ability to take consecutive pieces or pressure the checkmate. Since it moves so funny the knight can't really clean house, but it does extremly well at pressuring for a checkmate(when used in a team).

But in comparison to all the other characters in narutoverse shika is prolly the closest tied into the shogi comparison (cuz of his style). What is actually the most important thing is not who is what piece in shogi, but this simple revalation of a fact: SHIKAMARU IS NOT SQUARING OFF AGAINST A CHICK THIS TIME!!! This should make for some extreme bad assery!

[prolifik]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's very observant info, but the comparison to the pieces in shogi should be considered a very loose analogy . Shikamaru is considered a knight because he is not very strong, but can move (that is, be used strategically) in ways no other piece can. Asuma was a pawn simply because he had to be sacrificed to protect the more important pieces. Hidan's and Kakuzu's names would make them a bishop and rook, both very powerful pieces. However in any case, the movements, strengths and weaknesses of the pieces of shogi shouldn't be literally thought of as the same limits and attributes of ninja in Naruto. I noticed this happening when people where guessing who the king piece was and immediately ruled out Naruto because the king is traditionally a weak piece.

But isn't the king what everyone is trying to protect? Wouldn't that be Naruto when everyone figures out the truth about him?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

SHIKAMARU IS NOT SQUARING OFF AGAINST A CHICK THIS TIME!!! This should make for some extreme bad assery!

Amen.

Originally Posted by prolifik

But isn't the king what everyone is trying to protect? Wouldn't that be Naruto when everyone figures out the truth about him?

Exactly. But the king is generally considered a weak piece ( especially in Western style chess) since its movement is extremely limited when compared to the other pieces. So people thought that Naruto being the king would also mean that he was "weak". That's why I said that applying the attributes of shogi pieces literally to the ninja they represent is misleading.