Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

My second thought was that maybe Ledo was too rash and should take a few days to gather intel before deciding on a course of action.

My first thought, OTOH, was that he should have put the destruction of Gargantia on the table, if they kept getting in his way. The Hideauze are mortal enemies, not to him personally, but to his whole civilization. If he can destroy a nest, especially a nest the GA doesn't know about, he should. And if Gargantia wants to side with the Hideauze, they're the enemy too.

Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.

Originally Posted by Kanon

The fact the words co-existence and co-prosperity do not exist in the alliance's dictionary is pretty telling though. Humans were very likely the ones who started the conflict against the Hideauze for whatever reason, and it ended up biting them in the ass. Ledo may very well reproduce the same mistake on Earth.

Yeah, well, it's also telling he finds it strange to see humans fighting each other.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I honestly would have almost entirely rewritten the last two episodes to both develop Ledo (which they mostly did a good job of) but also develop his relationship with some of the other characters in Gargantia. Let me get to know more about Pinion, Bellows, and Ridget, etc.

Personally I still think the best moments of the series were Ledo's talks with Bevel in episode 4.

That being said I don't think the series as a whole is ruined. Yeah I am happy they got back into the plot but it just felt really rushed to me. That doesn't mean that things won't get better just because we have a rushed beginning of the conflict.

I do see your point, few things in this episode would have been better if it was introduced earlier. I am not going to dismiss the last few few episodes as I think they did decent job of Ledo's attempt to integrate into the fleet. I really felt that last few episodes goal was just to focus on Ledo, not other characters. So focusing on other characters, while nice as it would have been, doesn't seem to have been the writer's goal.
I especially agree on Ridget, currently we don't know much about her. It would have quite nice to see her character fleshed out as she is likely to be a major character.

Aside from those flaws, I still believe that the show overall is on a nice track.

[Mangaka-chan]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

At the same time, Ledo brings up a good point to Amy and her brother: "Do you people even have a vision to develop your civilization?" That's an integral part of what it is to be human, and something they Gargantians lack. Sure they are peaceful and seem like nice people overall, but the matter of fact is they live in rusty ships, scared of sea monsters, and are living day to day with no goal to strive toward.

That's another point that struck me while I was watching this episode. Ledo's people advocate for the advance of humanity, to expanse and colonize more of space. The Gargantian on the other hand seem quite content where they are, though there definitely are those who would like to advance themselves (financially or otherwise) as well. And while these impulses are very human, and the drive to advancing civilization has its positive side, I wonder if the negative side of a push for advancement will also be discussed in the show?

The Industrial Revolution brought about a lot of the modern advances we enjoy today, but at a heavy human cost, not to mention inflicting a lot of damage to our planet in the process. The ice age that eventually gave way to the water world the fleet lives on might've been as a result of human action rather than any "anomaly with the sun" that Ledo's government claim is the cause, and the fruit of the Galactic Alliance's ideology was what forced drove them to leave Earth in the first place.

[Jetzero Infinity]

Wow. Things got totally real, really fast and it was glorious.

I definently didn't see the thing with the Hideauze being considered sacred on Earth coming, but it was a great way to stir up conflict over the war, and get Ledo refocused on his mission to destroy them. Should be really interesting to see where that leads him after spending so much time mellowing out, and it's also interesting that Pinion wants to make use of Ledo's hatred to go scalvage in Hideauze/Whalesquid areas. With the episode ending in the Fleet Commander getting a heart attack I'm pretty sure they'll be going ahead with it even though he told them no. Obviously that's not going to end well for all of them but I'm really curious to see where this is all headed. We're definently in pure Urobuchi territory now.

[MeggieMay]

So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Something else about this scene that I noticed as well. No one wants to just take Ledo to the Fleet Commander and let him talk it out with him. I think this is a big mistake being made on councils part (I think that's what these guys are - a group of sub Fleet commanders that are acting as a council). What I took away from the scene with the Fleet Commander and the Doctor (other than it was a clear foretelling of a future problem), was that he isn't as set in his ways on this issue as some of the others and might have tried to work something out. I didn't take his attitude to mean he thought they had to keep living the status quo but that what he was saying is he'd play it by ear and then decided how to handle things. He doesn't seem unreasonable to me which is what makes his having a heart attack at this point a big problem. BTW, my thought when the Commander said that splitting off ship would leave Gargantia in a bad defensive position was that if Ledo knew this he would actually side with the Commander and try to figure out a different strategy. Ledo wants to resume his war with the Hideauze but he also wants to protect humans. Ledo isn't going to want to weaken the Garganitia's deference here and actually within known story line at this point he doesn't know about this since he thinks he's just going to go out with Pinions ship, not Flange's group as well.

[ustatsu]

^
was about to post this. If this is an actual map, then their whole way of life doesn't make any sense. Why live in fear of pirates and squids if you could just go on land? Technological progress would also be a lot easier that way.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

My first thought, OTOH, was that he should have put the destruction of Gargantia on the table, if they kept getting in his way. The Hideauze are mortal enemies, not to him personally, but to his whole civilization. If he can destroy a nest, especially a nest the GA doesn't know about, he should. And if Gargantia wants to side with the Hideauze, they're the enemy too.

Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.

So you're welling to use your hyper advanced super weapon to strong arm a relatively primitive civilization? I don't know if I should call this evil or just general dickery...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by kukuru

Unknown, need more information. It could be like Ledo says, and that the whalesquid are just ignoring the human population because they vastly overpower them. Thus a superior ignoring an inferior as long as they stay inferior.

I think that what Ledo said is very important. That would be too much of a conjecture for him to say that without any reason to think so.

There is probably some kind of technology that automatically causes the Hideauze to rage and attack humans.

So I don't think that it was simply the alliance that attacked the Hideauze first. The Hideauze really are the enemy of a humanity that wants to develop over a certain limit.

There's a further hint to that. Pinion believes that in the area infested by Hideauze there are even greater "treasures" to salvage, and it seems his brother saw that. Those "treasures" are likely the remnants of a technology that the Hideauze are attracted to. Which would explain why they are particularly concentrated there.

Originally Posted by Key Board

Nah. I don't think that's how Urobutchi's mind operates

I think they'll show that Redo was right, but he'll have to make a painful choice to keep the peace.

Yeah, pretty much that.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Just because it was foreshadowed one episode ago doesn't make it good writing.

I don't know maybe if they spent real time developing Ledo's interaction with Gargantia, not just swim suit parties and watching girls belly dance we could of had something more compelling than this.

I don't see anything that would make me think that this episode had anything that could be considered bad writing. The pacing wasn't particularly rushed nor anything and there is absolutely nothing wrong in alternating peaceful scenes with more tense ones, it's a solid format of many successful stories.

Moreover it's not like this recent event came out of the blue, it was foreshadowed enough.

I have the feeling that you didn't get over the disappointment of the previous episodes and that that is affecting negatively the judgement of this latest one. It doesn't help the fact that you keep mentioning them as a reason to justify your critique of this episode.



Regarding Ledo, I really liked how this episode portrayed his determination and his absolute unquestioning devotion to his cause. He is a lot scarier than I originally thought. Even though the recent events seemed to have mellowed him down, his beliefs and convictions are still incredibly solid. He didn't even hesitate a bit in front of the prospect of abandoning Amy.

It's really very sad but this story does a good job at making you understand his point of view. In one of my earlier comments I pointed how the Alliance seem to glorify humanity and its role in the universe, their adopted symbol is a very good indication of that. They have pride and they can't accept to submit to another species as the rulers of their environment. Ledo has always lived according to that mentality, rejecting that to him would be most likely equivalent to us rejecting the values of democracy and freedom.

He simply cannot accept the fact that Gargantians are fine living their lives mindlessly without any project of advancement least they'll get in the way of more powerful beings. I sympathize with his view.

Though, from a practical standpoint I simply can't agree with his suicidal crusade.
We have seen that there are entire swarms of whalesquids and while they aren't as strong as their spacefaring counterparts they are still a serious threat to Chamber and an absolutely lethal one to everyone else.
His plan to single handedly wage war against all the Hideauze on earth isn't realistic, especially considering that he doesn't have an adequate logistic support.
There was no way that he could have defended the whole fleet against that huge swarm. What is he planning to do once there won't be any floating platforms left to rest on?

I'm amazed that Chamber doesn't suggest to wait for directions from the Alliance before initiating a war in an unknown territory, I am also amazed by how Pinion and that other guy whose name I don't remember are willingly to go on war against the whalesquid, especially after they have seen that they can organize a counteroffensive so quickly after just one of them dying.
Perhaps they are overestimating Chamber. Well I can't be completely certain, but it doesn't look to me that this will be going well.

I think that the timely earth attack of Fairlock will result in a part of the fleet following Pinion and Ledo. I wonder what Amy will do then. Perhaps she will decide to follow Ledo even if she doesn't agree with him just to stay near him.

They will most likely explore the area protected by Hideauze where powerful technologies lie. This will probably lead them to learn important facts about what actually happened to Earth in the past and what roles the Hideauze have on it.

Originally Posted by MeggieMay

So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Yeah I noticed that too. According to that map there is still land. I hope this issue will be addressed in the future.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

I'm glad the map has not gone unnoticed. I couldn't really think of a good explanation for it, though... if that really is dry land that's showing, it's hardly a secret hanging its picture up on the wall.

Unless it's not a current map, or is a map of some other thing than dry land (though the colors are fairly standard).

Anyway:

[Nvis]

Hideauze are the Anti-Spirals of Gurren Lagann!

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think that what Ledo said is very important. That would be too much of a conjecture for him to say that without any reason to think so.

There is probably some kind of technology that automatically causes the Hideauze to rage and attack humans.

So I don't think that it was simply the alliance that attacked the Hideauze first. The Hideauze really are the enemy of a humanity that wants to develop over a certain limit.

There's a further hint to that. Pinion believes that in the area infested by Hideauze there are even greater "treasures" to salvage, and it seems his brother saw that. Those "treasures" are likely the remnants of a technology that the Hideauze are attracted to. Which would explain why they are particularly concentrated there.


Regarding Ledo, I really liked how this episode portrayed his determination and his absolute unquestioning devotion to his cause. He is a lot scarier than I originally thought. Even though the recent events seemed to have mellowed him down, his beliefs and convictions are still incredibly solid. He didn't even hesitate a bit in front of the prospect of abandoning Amy.

It's really very sad but this story does a good job at making you understand his point of view. In one of my earlier comments I pointed how the Alliance seem to glorify humanity and its role in the universe, their adopted symbol is a very good indication of that. They have pride and they can't accept to submit to another species as the rulers of their environment. Ledo has always lived according to that mentality, rejecting that to him would be most likely equivalent to us rejecting the values of democracy and freedom.

He simply cannot accept the fact that Gargantians are fine living their lives mindlessly without any project of advancement least they'll get in the way of more powerful beings. I sympathize with his view.

Though, from a practical standpoint I simply can't agree with his suicidal crusade.
We have seen that there are entire swarms of whalesquids and while they aren't as strong as their spacefaring counterparts they are still a serious threat to Chamber and an absolutely lethal one to everyone else.
His plan to single handedly wage war against all the Hideauze on earth isn't realistic, especially considering that he doesn't have an adequate logistic support.
There was no way that he could have defended the whole fleet against that huge swarm. What is he planning to do once there won't be any floating platforms left to rest on?

I'm amazed that Chamber doesn't suggest to wait for directions from the Alliance before initiating a war in an unknown territory, I am also amazed by how Pinion and that other guy whose name I don't remember are willingly to go on war against the whalesquid, especially after they have seen that they can organize a counteroffensive so quickly after just one of them dying.
Perhaps they are overestimating Chamber. Well I can't be completely certain, but it doesn't look to me that this will be going well.

I think that the timely heart attack of Fairlock will result in a part of the fleet following Pinion and Ledo. I wonder what Amy will do then. Perhaps she will decide to follow Ledo even if she doesn't agree with him just to stay near him.

They will most likely explore the area protected by Hideauze where powerful technologies lie. This will probably lead them to learn important facts about what actually happened to Earth in the past and what roles the Hideauze have on it.

I agree with a lot you just said. I however don't think that Red considers it a "suicidal mission". In his mind, it's his only option. He has to destroy the Hideauze before they destroy Earth, that's all there is to it. He can't risk them hurting the humans of Earth, or eventually being able to join their brethren and kill more of his fellow soldiers. It doesn't matter if he dies or not, right now he's the only one standing between them and the rest of the Earth who have no power to even think about defeating these things.

And he did ask Chamber several times if there was any response to his beacon or if Chamber had figured out where he was yet in the galaxy. So he obviously knows that he needs reinforcements but he has no way of getting them right now, so he's just going it alone.

However, a line from Ridget did strike my interest. She didn't forbid Red from killing the squid, despite them being supposedly "sacred". (Honestly, for swimming "good luck charms", the Gargantians are pretty afraid of them.) She said that if they attacked the fleet then he was free to do as he wished, but until then she would keep him on a short leash (as if Chamber would allow her to hurt his charge... ) so that makes me think that at one point or another the Earth Hideauze are going to attack Gargantia, and that Red will be the only one who can save them until/unless the Alliance shows up.

[MeggieMay]

While there's still land, I really can't see everyone trying to live on it. The map isn't showing how viable it is to live on and it doesn't look like enough land to put everyone onto and survive. Best use of the land in the map, IMO, would be for groups of people to move and raise food on it, if possible.

The main confusing thing to me is that Amy said "land was mythical," so what gives? I really think Amy was telling the truth from her perspective which makes me wonder has she never seen that map? Then again, even if she has maybe she doesn't realizes the map is showing land (I think Ledo may not realize what he's looking at either, seeing he really has little reason to know how to read a terrestrial map). Does no one realize what that map is telling them or is it a case that only a few in charge know (thus why it's posted in the Command ship) and the rest of the ship population is being kept in the dark? If so, why is that happening?

You know, this show really needs another season! They've got a good foundation for a universe going on here. I'm hoping the pre-orders for DVDs and potential ratings are enough to get another season greenlit.

[Grey]

Wow. Local hordes of Hideauze, a splitting of the fleet that leaves Gargantia defenseless, and Pinion, Flange, and Ledo targeting the Hideauze nest? I guess the pirates will target the weaker fleet after the split too.

Time for things to go south!


Edit: I didn't notice the land map. Maybe that's Hideauze territory? So, just like in space, the Hideauze might stand in the way of vital resources.

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Thinking about it, they run roughshod over him because he's nice and restrained. They submit to the pirates because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. They submit to the Hideauze because they're deadly and the fleet's scared of them. Well, maybe Ledo should sink a ship or two - maybe Gargantia will start to see things his way then.

Yeah, well, it's also telling he finds it strange to see humans fighting each other.

The story exposes the difficulty in deciding which is the correct action. In the real world, I've seen people ignore horrible problems for as long as they can live within their pocket of the world. I'm talking about situations where people are occasionally found murdered in empty lots on the way to your school. The police get notified, the adults talk about it in hushed tones, and us kids were told not to worry about it as it is someone else problem. When you're the not the ones holding the power to change your environment, you get the heck out of the way or try not stand out too much lest you become the next victim. You hope and pray your luck holds. Did my family live in fear? No. I tend to remember my childhood to be peaceful. Not main street USA peaceful, but there were happy memories there and people lived reasonably for the circumstance. Actually, the most fear I felt at that time was in grade school when I saw an American F4 flying overhead as a show of support to the local government. It was a whole new level of escalation.

When I got into high school we had military training in the curriculum. That's when I got the funny notion, why not just go to the countryside and hunt down all the baddies then be done with it? If they can supply a school with an armory, what's the real military got? A friend of mine pointed out that in his parent's province, the military does as much damage as the local insurgents. If there's an 'encounter' in the town you're in, you can't go outside and go about your business. Hunger kills just as effectively as a bullet, though it may take a bit longer. Fighting was no guarantee of peace to come. The immediate effect was pain and suffering, which was what you were trying your best to avoid. I'm told they actually welcomed both military and insurgent people knowing who they were during festivals to keep everyone "happy." People find solutions that to an outsider don't make sense.

Back to Gargantia, from their point of view, they have not seen the atrocities Hideauze and Alliance have inflicted on each other. All they have is the word of a single stranger. In their view, even one Whalesquid is an overwhelming force which cannot be met with the same. To Bellow's point, Pinion's brother was something that couldn't be helped.

Even Ledo doesn't have the firepower to take all those Hideauze on. The MC was designed to fight in the vacuum of space. When he saw the numbers swimming under the fleet, he must have understood how difficult this was going to be. At best, he'd have to fight guerrilla style. So he's enlisted (though Pinion says it's the other way around) the help of willing allies to further his military objective. Does that result in less suffering down the line? Probably not. Is it the correct solution? A fighting man would say yes, and I sympathize. But opinion varies with the guy receiving the results.

[andyjay729]

Originally Posted by MeggieMay

So, did anyone else notice that Ridget has a wall map behind her in this episode that seems to show land (a chain of islands, to be specific)? There's a clear, large, shot of it at the 8:34 mark, for anyone who wants to see what I'm talking about. It could be the map isn't current but it does raise the question of just what the map is of/and or came from?

Something else about this scene that I noticed as well. No one wants to just take Ledo to the Fleet Commander and let him talk it out with him. I think this is a big mistake being made on councils part (I think that's what these guys are - a group of sub Fleet commanders that are acting as a council). What I took away from the scene with the Fleet Commander and the Doctor (other than it was a clear foretelling of a future problem), was that he isn't as set in his ways on this issue as some of the others and might have tried to work something out. I didn't take his attitude to mean he thought they had to keep living the status quo but that what he was saying is he'd play it by ear and then decided how to handle things. He doesn't seem unreasonable to me which is what makes his having a heart attack at this point a big problem. BTW, my thought when the Commander said that splitting off ship would leave Gargantia in a bad defensive position was that if Ledo knew this he would actually side with the Commander and try to figure out a different strategy. Ledo wants to resume his war with the Hideauze but he also wants to protect humans. Ledo isn't going to want to weaken the Garganitia's deference here and actually within known story line at this point he doesn't know about this since he thinks he's just going to go out with Pinions ship, not Flange's group as well.

Glad to see I wasn't the only who noticed the map. So there is dry land after all? What implications will this have later on?

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Mangaka-chan

That's another point that struck me while I was watching this episode. Ledo's people advocate for the advance of humanity, to expanse and colonize more of space. The Gargantian on the other hand seem quite content where they are, though there definitely are those who would like to advance themselves (financially or otherwise) as well. And while these impulses are very human, and the drive to advancing civilization has its positive side, I wonder if the negative side of a push for advancement will also be discussed in the show?

I think there already is some balance there. For all of the romantic portrayal of the Earthlings' society of coexistence, there is a focus on the pursuit of individual fulfillment that Ledo's people lack (at least those bred as soldiers), because "for humanity" is the only cause they can afford to consider.

More than ever, the two worldviews seem irreconcilable, but each with merit, in that what makes one society happy may not satisfy the other. Avalon has mastered life among the stars, and struggles for control of the galaxy itself. In a way, it's a monument to human achievement. To them, the Earthlings' willingness to cede vast expanses of their own planet, and to technologically stagnate simply because they lack the will to struggle for anything greater must seem like the worst kind of squandered potential. Yet now Ledo has seen with his own eyes just how fulfilled and prosperous a society can be when living in harmony with its natural surroundings, rather than bending it to their will. You can make arguments for either side.

If Ledo is ever able to get his head around the vast cultural divide, he'll possess a perspective that few humans in Suisei no Gargantia's universe can lay claim to.

Meanwhile, I would not be surprised if coexistence with the Hideauze is impossible for the Galactic Alliance at this stage. Even if humanity began the war, as everything in this episode suggest, we just watched the death of a single whalesquid bring a horde of them to Gargantia's doorstep. Even if they aren't "naturally aggressive," they seem ruthlessly territorial. It may be generations too late for a cease-fire, at least for the space-faring humans.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Very enjoyable episode. Glad to see the plot starting to kick in.

Spoiler:

I don't know why, but I really like how angry he was when he was stopped. The "Don't touch me!" made me very, well, maybe not happy is the right word, but I really liked it.

[yankky5]

Man thats why I never really did like politics especially in a setting where war is inevitable. Anyway so the cultural exchange trip for ledo seems to end at this ep..... Pinion goes out seek untouched tech and a personal vandeta for his borthers death, gargantia is gonna be separated and maybe a civil war and most of all it seems squids are now part of the list of to watch out cretures that will destroy mankind. the list includes aliens, demi-humans, gods, monkeys, bugs, zombies, mutans and everything that goes bumb in the night!!

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I agree with a lot you just said. I however don't think that Red considers it a "suicidal mission". In his mind, it's his only option. He has to destroy the Hideauze before they destroy Earth, that's all there is to it. He can't risk them hurting the humans of Earth, or eventually being able to join their brethren and kill more of his fellow soldiers. It doesn't matter if he dies or not, right now he's the only one standing between them and the rest of the Earth who have no power to even think about defeating these things.

Oh yeah, I agree that Ledo probably doesn't think that it is a suicidal mission, but that's precisely because he doesn't recognize it as such that I criticize him.
This is probably due to the fact that he is an indoctrinated soldier through an thorough, He can only think about killing Hideauze and doesn't have much of a grasp of what strategy is.
I'm pretty sure he even disagreed with the Alliance's decision to retreat after the failed attempt to destroy the Hideauze nest in the first episode. If it was for him he would have ordered to keep attacking.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

However, a line from Ridget did strike my interest. She didn't forbid Red from killing the squid, despite them being supposedly "sacred". (Honestly, for swimming "good luck charms", the Gargantians are pretty afraid of them.) She said that if they attacked the fleet then he was free to do as he wished, but until then she would keep him on a short leash (as if Chamber would allow her to hurt his charge... ) so that makes me think that at one point or another the Earth Hideauze are going to attack Gargantia, and that Red will be the only one who can save them until/unless the Alliance shows up.

I wasn't particularly surprised. I think that the Gargantians are being misunderstood a lot.
They aren't fundamentalist pacifist, and they aren't superstitious barbarians either.
They are simply pretty pragmatic and make a priority out of avoiding conflicts.

It's not like they revere the whalesquids, they simply know that it's better to leave them alone if they want to avoid problems. But in the end what they value the most is their own life and their well-being. If the whalesquids decide to kill them all, then they'll feel that they have no choice but to fight back.

If they however are given the option then they rather steer clear of them even if that means renouncing to powerful lost technologies.

Their attitude with the pirates is similar. They know they can't avoid conflicts with them, so they try to keep those conflicts to the minimum, even if that means that once in a while they will have to pay a "tribute" to them in the form of stolen salvaged goods.

Even that is a form of co-existence. Not something that I quite agree with though. it's simply... pragmatic and completely devoid of ideals.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by andyjay729

Glad to see I wasn't the only who noticed the map. So there is dry land after all? What implications will this have later on?

My guess is that it's little piece of land not large enough to support a large number of people and when talking about land being a myth maybe Amy was talking about continents.