Newsflash: Fighting in South Ossetia/Georgia

[Zoned87]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Your kidding, right?

Even if we were not worried about Russia, it is still not our place to send military aid to Georgia. I'm sorry, but besides the fact that the country has a similar name to one of America's states, there is absolutely no reason for America to be interested in Georgia. This is Europe and its many nations fight (if they choose to fight), and has nothing to do with America.

Protecting freedom is a reason, Russia's government is very corrupt

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

*facepalm*

How old are you again?

I am 21 years old

[WanderingKnight]

Protecting freedom is a reason

Why don't you try to protect freedom in your own country, then? Leaving aside the fact that, in a capitalistic society, "freedom" is something completely relative and sometimes nothing more than an illusion, for all the idyllic statements about the US' freedom, you've got a lot of areas where you're really not free at all and your precious amendments are violated on a constant basis. Why don't you try fixing the unconstitutional "war" on drugs, for example? That would certainly be a huge step forward for "freedom".

Russia's government is very corrupt

And so is your own damn government, as it occurs everywhere in the world where a small group of people concentrate a lot of power over their peers.

I am 21 years old

Very, very sad frame of mind for having that age.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Zoned87

Protecting freedom is a reason, Russia's government is very corrupt

It is not America's job to protect freedom. It never has been our job, and it never will be our job.

Besides, if you look more closely at this conflict (and did not just follow the blurbs that Fox, CNN, and MSNBC have been posting), you would realize that part of the problem is Georgia. 2 times in the past 4 years, the Georgian government has forcefully expanded their territory into neighboring autonomous/soon to be autonomous regions (they attacked Ajaria in 2004, they then attacked the breakaway region South Ossetia, which the Russian government brought before the UN, since South Ossertia is mainly composed of Russian citizens (it is directly on the border between the two countries)). This recent conflict was started by the Georgian army as they, again, attempted to seize the South Ossertia region, only to have the Russian military step in and cause great damage to the region and other parts of Georgia.

So, please do not just blame Russia. There is far more to this conflict than simply a larger nation (Russia) picking on a smaller nation (Georgia).

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Zoned87

You should not fear or take crap from Russia, they nor none of their weaponry could ever reach our sores.

Any long range missiles would be shot down, Russia is an inferior bug who should be put in their place

Russia has over 2000 active nuclear warheads and thousands more in storage. Let's assume an anti missile missile has a 50% success rate, which is being generious. That means we'd need at the very least 4000 of them to take out a Russian first strike. However, we could get unlucky and have multiple failures against the same warhead, so you'd want to at least double that number of anti missile missiles. So 8000 of them and we could be relatively safe from a nuclear first strike. We have maybe a few dozen and that's being generous.

Plus, what if the russians decide to focus on only a few high priority targets? Say the top 50 on their list to swamp our non existant missile defenses?

Originally Posted by Zoned87

Protecting freedom is a reason, Russia's government is very corrupt

See real life doesn't work like Gurren Lagann. The power of freedom doesn't increase the effectiveness of our weapons, and the corruption of Russia doesn't decrease the effectiveness of theirs. Hell, it doesn't even come down to a question of training or experience. It comes down to number of warheads and ballistic science.

Not to mention we have domestic corruption and injustices against freedom and democracy to fight and the situation there isn't as clear cut as you seem to believe.

Originally Posted by james3wk

Even if we were not worried about Russia, it is still not our place to send military aid to Georgia. I'm sorry, but besides the fact that the country has a similar name to one of America's states, there is absolutely no reason for America to be interested in Georgia. This is Europe and its many nations fight (if they choose to fight), and has nothing to do with America.

Oil and natural gas. Plus Georgia has been helping the US in Iraq. We do have some reasons to help them out.

[Takeru]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I suggest you to watch this show.

That show was amazing. I actually lived in Vegas when they recorded it.

Originally Posted by james3wk

It is not America's job to protect freedom. It never has been our job, and it never will be our job.

I agree 100%. Unless one of your allies are in dire need of help or someone is encroaching on your territory with greedy eyes, mind your own damn business.

Instead of waltzing in, without request, and deciding that you (the third party that has nothing to do with this mess) are going to spread your philosophies and ''fix'' something that isn't your problem in the first place.

[solomon]

Both Georgia and Russia are at fault, but Russia itself has always at least SEEMED like it's trying a bit too much to mess around in CIS states' affairs and it always SEEMED that the Russian Middle Class doesn't care much about it.

But then again that is very generallized.

[solomon]

In reference to P and T;

Im no righty tighty but I'm moral and my conviction is NO DRUGS ARE BAD. I think we need regulation everything above MJ.

But what IS TRUE is we rely TOO MUCH ON INCARCERATION.

[Demongod86]

This whole Russia/Georgia conflict is *not* our business here in the states. End of topic. We went into Iraq to try and police the world and look what kind of a quagmire we're in now.

We should honestly stop trying to focus our resources on solving a problem somewhere else in the world and focus within our own borders. We're losing our technological advantage, 17 countries graduate more scientists and engineers, home prices are falling like stones, and many more.

Our first president, on his farewell address, the very man responsible for the creation of this nation told the USA to butt out of foreign affairs. Now can we please be a good nation and listen to George Washington?

[4Tran]

I think that this news item warrants a new thread.


A brief recap of the relevant events from the BBC website:

• 1991-92 S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
• 2004 Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories
• 2006 S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
• April 2008 Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
• July 2008 Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up
• 7 August 2008 After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire; however Georgia launches a surprise attack
• 8 August 2008 Russia sends in columns of armour and troops and fighting erupts with Georgian forces in and around Tskhinvali
• 9 August 2008 Russian jets bomb central Georgian town of Gori, Russia says its troops have "liberated" Tskhinvali

What the recap doesn't go into detail is that the surprise attack that Georgia sprang on 7 August was an attempt to capture the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. The Russian armor movements that have been talked about was a response to that attack, and their ground forces have yet to go beyond the South Ossetia - Georgia border. What the Russians have done, is to bomb strategic targets in Georgia proper.

While there's still not a very clear picture built up on what's actually occurring, it seems that the ground fighting in Tskhinvali is over, and that Georgian forces have withdrawn to their side of the border. The timing of the Georgian attack is certainly suspicious - it feels like Georgian President Saakashvili badly miscalculated just about everything regarding this action. His goals were likely:

1. Attack while the world's attention (and many of its leaders) was on Beijing.
2. Swiftly seize Tskhinvali before Russia could respond.
3. Garner enough support from the West for his action before Russian forces attacked his own.

Instead, Russian forces acted right away and drove off the attack in a single day. It's also quite obvious that the Russians had been very prepared for Georgia to launch an attack - to the extent that the Georgian ground forces are effectively beaten after just a couple of days of combat. As the situation currently stands, Russia is firmly in control of the situation, and will probably continue to take advantage of their superiority until Georgia sues for peace.

A full understanding of the events probably isn't possible without first looking at both Russia and Georgia's geopolitical stances and alliances / potential alliances. Simplistic claims like Georgia = freedom and Russia = evil have no place in an educated discussion. Moreover, there is no way for any outside country to intervene - of the European countries, only France and Britain have any sort of power projection capability, and they have no bone in this fight. As for the US, even if it weren't involved in other current wars, it's not geographically positioned to do much unless they were foolish enough to send a carrier battlegroup into the Black Sea. And even then, only someone truly insane would try to force the hand of the country with the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

[WanderingKnight]

A full understanding of the events probably isn't possible without first looking at both Russia and Georgia's geopolitical stances and alliances / potential alliances. Simplistic claims like Georgia = freedom and Russia = evil have no place in an educated discussion.

Could we edit the first post and add that, in all caps if possible?

Also, in any kind of international conflict whatsoever, there is never such a thing as a black vs. white moral conflict. Both sides have vested interests in the matter--I think Georgia's are evident enough, but Russia can also take an advantage of this (annexing Georgia).

An interesting thing is that if Russia supports South Ossetia in its claim for independence, then their own position in the conflict with Chechnya is weakened.

[Lathdrinor]

I'm not sure how NATO can intervene without being viewed as being anti-Russia, and at a time when Russia is so vital to European energy security, I can see why NATO countries are hesitating. I mean, if the Russians get pissed even more than they are all their energy, natural resources, and weapons technology are going to go to China and the Middle-East and then the West is kinda screwed. We are also depending on Russia to broker several major issues, such as North Korea and Iran, and we can't exactly attack Russia proper because they have nukes. So what's a superpower to do?

[Autumn Demon]

The first time i heard of Georgia was in the video game Splinter Cell where Georgia was America's enemy. I imagine many Americans only know of Georgia because of that game.

I had been reading about the escalating military conflict between Georgia and Russia for a few months before this but i didn't think the two sides would actually start firing at each other (same with Cambodia and Thailand).

My opinion on the matter is Georgia was wrong for trying to retake South Ossetia. South Ossetia wants independence from Georgia and "to join up with their ethnic brethren in North Ossetia, which is an autonomous republic within the Russian Federation."

Nice succinct article on South Ossetia's situation from before the fighting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm

I see Georgia invading South Ossetia as what it would be like if Serbia invaded Kosovo to retake it.

[ApostleOfGod]

Although there isn't a clear distinction of "black vs. white moral conflict" per say, it's simply the fact that everyone thinks their way is unconditional justice. -_-... So rather than right or wrong, I guess you can even say there isn't really a question to ask. I don't quite get the whole territorial ambition thing. Well I can put myself in the shoes of the Georgian president and say that the loss was unjustified and he is fighting for justice, but then again, that's justifying the interests of his people, not necessarily speaking for justice of all people which would include the S.O.'s.



This dispute should be over soon since Russia is involved..

For those of you who didn't get that, it means things always get complicated with terms Russia and War.




Oh, and by the way, I've seen a lot of "America's not a freedom fighter" kind of thing going on.

It's EVERYONE'S job, duty, right, whatever terminology you wish to use, to play freedom fighter. NO ONE is exempt from it. You can wuss out and put yourself in the corner, but we know you do it, America.

And if that's not true, Stop playing "Team America: World Police". Easy as that.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the georgian president is a fool.

if you country isn't strong enough to change the status quo (ie. serbia) then accept it.

you only try to change the status quo if you country is strong enough to back it up (ie China).

the countries most likely to intervene in Georgia's favor (US, UK) has too much on its plate.

the other countries like Germany and France is too dependent on Russia natural gas and oil.

It's as foolish as China trying to crush the independence movement in East Turkistan and Tibet. At least Tibet is internationally recognized; noone recognizes South Ossetia (so far).



Anyway, good to see a conventional war where one side doesn't hit from 500 kilometers away.

[Lathdrinor]

Tibet is internationally recognized by who? Just about every nation recognizes Tibet as an "integral part of China." Same deal with South Ossetia and Georgia.

His point is that Georgia shouldn't start a war that it can't finish.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

Tibet is internationally recognized by who? Just about every nation recognizes Tibet as an "integral part of China." Same deal with South Ossetia and Georgia.

Well, at least internationally recognized to the point that many people outside of China would wish for its independence.


With South Ossetia, only Russia would consider it.

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

His point is that Georgia shouldn't start a war that it can't finish.

The point is, the current situation IS the status quo. Stepping down on a rebel internal republic isn't going against the current regime.

[mg1942]

Majority of S. Osetians wanted to be Russian and most of them already have Russian passports.

If those 70,000+ S.Osetians wanted to be Russian, shouldn't they just move north and get out of Georgia?

[Zoned87]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Majority of S. Osetians wanted to be Russian and most of them already have Russian passports.

If those 70,000+ S.Osetians wanted to be Russian, shouldn't they just move north and get out of Georgia?

That would probably be better than starting a war.

[mg1942]

I dunno which side is telling the truth...

Georgia said it was forced to launch the assault because of rebel attacks; the separatists alleged Georgia violated a cease-fire.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Majority of S. Osetians wanted to be Russian and most of them already have Russian passports.

If those 70,000+ S.Osetians wanted to be Russian, shouldn't they just move north and get out of Georgia?

That's like asking the Chinese to get out of the Guangdong area: the Ossetians been in the area for a few thousand years.