[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for 中庭の構造上:

中庭の構造上
Don't worry ace, you were right.
The locks weren't put in when the courtyard was constructed. And I don't think a padlock-type thing has been mentioned at all, except for the extra lock on the shutter in ep1.
So while padlocks do exist on the island, they probably aren't commonly used, and it would have been obvious if someone had suddenly stuck a padlock or another lock on the boiler room door. Especially since there was no reason for anyone to go to all of that trouble, even considering the whole bizarre layout.

And this may be a long shot, but does anyone other than the servants actually know that there's a door there? It comes up from a stairway into the courtyard side, so it might not be too obvious, and I can't imagine anyone except maybe Natsuhi having any business there.
Even if they knew about it, it might not have been the first thing on their minds. They wanted to keep the crime scenes intact, and unlike all of the other closed rooms in umineko games, this time there were several places to check across the whole mansion area.

This could definitely be a big clue.

[theacefrehley]

Well
Thinking better
I think we have to take into consideration that the (real world) adults and (meta) battler and walgiria (even without Beato saying it in red) thought those rooms to be secret rooms. Well, they have to have the minimum to think this is the case and the minimun is doors and windows all closed (if there are tricks and secret passages, it's another talk). And being a bizarre scene like that/those, a mere padlock would not be that surprising, it would be like "Hey, I, the criminal, created a secret room, you hear?!"

It would be quite strange for them (a bunch of adults, 8?) to forget about the boiler room's backdoor all opened when Battler found it quite easily in the first episode. Well, I know it's just assuming stuff but maybe theres really a padlock there in the 3rd episode.

And in this episode, Ryuukishi is quite 'economic' in the descriptions of such scenes, so we can't know for sure (too much meta world for my taste)...


Hmm
other thing
About my theory:

'The windows are manually locked/unlocked from inside without the need of keys, if I'm not mistaken (well, my house is like that too, hehehe). And since I also do not remember anything contrary to this, it will be my hypothesis. (probatio diabolica)'.
It was denied by:

It's even said in this episode:

Originally Posted by Part 09 B
Beato
ちなみに、６つの部屋の扉や窓はいずれも普通。オートロックのような鍵を使用せず施錠できるよ うな仕掛けは 存在しない。


Personally, this red text is absolutely useless. As I said before, Beato never reds that any of these 6 rooms as closed rooms. It's possible at least 3 of the 6 rooms may not have been true locked rooms.

Well,
What if I change it to:
The windows need keys to be opened as this red text mentions. But what if these keys are different keys from the original key of the room and are kept near the window? Or even inserted in its respective lock?
hehe
With this my theory could still make sense and Rudolf opening Shannon's secret room and Beato's red text here would all make sense together.

It would be just like a manual locking but without violating this: オートロックのような鍵を使用せず施錠できるよ うな仕掛けは 存在しない。

[nagare]

Okay, you guys made me curious. So I replayed that one scene in EP 01

Spoiler for bits and parts of game text:

Episode 1, ボイラー室
厨房に至る途中にある、地下への階段からさらに濃密な悪臭が上ってくるのに気付いたからだ。その階段は地下 のボイラー室へ通じるものだった。

もしボイラー室が袋小路だったなら、嘉音は焦って飛び出したりはしなかった。・・・しかし、嘉音は使用人だ から知っている。ボイラー室には屋敷側からの入口と、中庭側からの入口の２つがある。

（嘉音）入口のすぐ脇にある工具棚から鉈を掴み取る。

裸電球程度では【・・・】

（戦人）入口脇の工具短名から大型の懐中電灯を取って、夏妃が睨みつける闇をその灯りで切り裂いた。だが、 そこには無機質な配管と扉が照らし出されるだけだった。

扉はわずかに隙間を残して開いており、何者かが慌しくそこから出て行ったらしいことは明白だっ た。

（戦人）「・・・夏妃おばさん、あの扉はどこへッ？！」
（夏妃）「げ、源次・・・！あの扉はどこに通じているのですか？！」
（源次）「・・・な、中庭です・・・！」

戦人はお雄叫びをあげながら扉に体当たりする。冷たい外気がどっと噴出してきた。

・・・そこには細く粗末な登り階段があった。
・・・戦人は絶叫しながらそれを駆け上がっていく！
そこに中庭だった。
・・・屋敷の中庭はもっぱら採光のために設けられたもので、それほど立派なところではなかった 。

四囲を囲まれているため、強い風の音を聞くことは出来ても、風の一切吹く込まぬ穏やかな空間だ った。

戦人はぐるぐると四方を見渡す。ぐるぐると、ぐるぐると。方向感覚を失いそうになるくらいに、ぐるぐると。 その光景の中に、犯人の姿があることを祈って・・・！

だが、あるわけがない。
屋敷の壁と窓がいくつも無情に並ぶのがぐるぐるとめに入るだけだ・・・！

しかも、中庭から屋敷に入る入口は２つもあり、そのどちらにも鍵は掛かっていなかった。

中庭の構造上、屋敷の外から入れないため、鍵が計けられてなかったのだ。

・・・・・・これではどちらをでたのかわからない！

1. To get to the boiler room from inside the mansion, you have to go down the stairs. These stairs are located in the hallway on the way to the kitchen.

2. Kanon's thoughts prove there are 2 doors in this room. The conversation with Battler, Natuhi, and Genji later seems that only the servants knew about this other door. Note: people who live in the house since their childhood were not present (Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Rosa, & Jessica). They may have known, but currently there is no evidence that supports or denies this. Reason why I think they might know is because when you are very young child, didn't you have the curiosity to just explore random doors? I especially see Rudolf doing this when he was very young. This is baseless speculation, however.

3. The room is fairly dark. But even so, Battler was easily able to find the other door with a flashlight. Also, to get to the inner yard, you have to climb another set of stairs. Since Battler felt cold air as soon as he left the Boiler room, it seems that this stair well either
a. has no door at the top of the stairs.
b. there might be a door on the top of the stairs, but it was left open as well.

This lack of description on Ryukishi 07's part. I think its (a) as there's no mention of another door.

4. There's a tool shelf set off the side, in the stairwell area (mansion side, in front of the door to the Boiler room). On this shelf, a nata and a large flashlight were easily accessible and easy to find. <- Off topic, but maybe something from this self is what Shannon went to get in EP 02?

5. The questionable lines:
しかも、中庭から屋敷に入る入口は２つもあり、そのどちらにも鍵は掛かっていなかった。

中庭の構造上、屋敷の外から入れないため、鍵が計けられてなかったのだ。

...is taken slightly out of context. If Battler is confused which door the murderer went, then common sense tells me that neither of these 2 doors lead to the Boiler Room where Battler just came from. If so, then we have no idea whether the Boiler room door can be locked especially since that door was left slightly open when Battler slammed through it. Going by the design/floor plan logic, no lock? But if that's so, then this isn't a closed room at all. Also, it seems all the adults went to all 6 rooms in EP 03. It's unlikely that none of the 8 will find this door.

6. Baseless speculation: (This is for EP 01 mystery)
Kanon and Kumasawa went down here b/c they heard a door slam. They assumed that someone just closed the door, but what if that outside door was left open (perhaps the door itself is broken and can't be properly closed?) and the wind just slammed the door?

The door being broken is unlikely since if so, none of the eight adults in this EP to not notice this door is even more ridiculous.

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

The windows need keys to be opened as this red text mentions.

What? The windows are normal. You don't need a key to open or lock the window. 鍵 can mean either key or lock. If they needed a key to unlock the window, then Rudolf couldn't have "unlocked" the window in the room Shannon's body was found.

I think you misunderstood why I posted that. It wasn't to deny you. It was proof that the windows are normal windows which don't have built in functions like an auto-lock. All windows and doors in these 6 rooms have to be manually locked, there isn't any other way to do so, is pretty much what Beatrice is saying.

[Rias]

There are still some loopholes for the first night of ep3.

1. Red text tells us that there's only 5 master keys, but it never said that there's only 1 room key per those rooms/places. Even if you add the red text from ep2, we only know there's only 1 key for the chapel. That leaves the other 5 rooms completely open to manipulation.

2. Since Walugiria's description was cut off, Beatrice's Closed Room definition was not put onto the 2nd floor guest room, boiler room, and the chapel. That opens the possibilities for all those hidden rooms/passage and what not for those places. After all, ep1 did show that the boiler room can be connected to the courtyard.

[Nadeor]

Guess I'd better stay out of this for now...
until chinese patch is out

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for mostly ep1 stuff:

First off, they found the back door in episode 1 because it had been left open, and there was a light shining through. Since we know it's dark and there's a lot of plumbing and the like in there, it's not impossible that they would miss it unless they were looking for it.

In all the Umineko games, they start caring less about the details when there are more and more closed rooms. And the boiler room was the fifth one they found in umi 3. You would expect that they would check each room they found less thoroughly than the last, and since Shannon's was the most obvious one for them to start from, there's a good chance the culprit wanted this room to be found closer to the end. Or, you could say that since the letter was found in this room, it's somewhat suspicious.

You might even say that the reason there were so many closed rooms this time was to hide this obvious weakness.
You'll notice that since the second part of ep2, Battler has almost completely stopped questioning whether each room was actually closed.

And while the second of those two lines from ep 1 may refer only to the other two doors, it's really talking about the courtyard in general. Why would only the boiler room have a lock, especially since it seems to be the door that is the most out of the way?

I don't think there's any reason to think that there's another door at the top of the stairs. It's pretty common to have outside stairs coming up from a basement.

Sorry that I'm just disagreeing with you on everything. I wouldn't have even thought of this if it weren't for your post.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Peroyasha

What? The windows are normal. You don't need a key to open or lock the window. 鍵 can mean either key or lock. If they needed a key to unlock the window, then Rudolf couldn't have "unlocked" the window in the room Shannon's body was found.

I think you misunderstood why I posted that. It wasn't to deny you. It was proof that the windows are normal windows which don't have built in functions like an auto-lock. All windows and doors in these 6 rooms have to be manually locked, there isn't any other way to do so, is pretty much what Beatrice is saying.

I know 鍵 means key or lock, but got kind of confused here, . sorry.
What I also got confused with was that for me:
manual lock = no need of keys, just turn a 'mechanism' with the hand and it's locked. And it is not applied to the doors, obviously.

My definition of manual locking might be wrong and messed my thoughts here
Manual locking doesn't imply no need of keys hehe

my theory is alive

Originally Posted by Rias

There are still some loopholes for the first night of ep3.

1. Red text tells us that there's only 5 master keys, but it never said that there's only 1 room key per those rooms/places. Even if you add the red text from ep2, we only know there's only 1 key for the chapel. That leaves the other 5 rooms completely open to manipulation.

As for this part
Beatrice in fact confirms it, but not in red... suspicious hhehe

「……２階客室の鍵…。
それは、２階客室の扉を、マスターキー以外に唯一開けることができる鍵だ、という定義でいいの か？」

「うむ。
問題ないぞ。
そして、マスターキーと違い、その１本しかない。」

I just don't remember if in episode 2 she mentioned that these 'original' keys are only one, without copies, in red colour.

[nagare]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Rias

There are still some loopholes for the first night of ep3.

1. Red text tells us that there's only 5 master keys, but it never said that there's only 1 room key per those rooms/places. Even if you add the red text from ep2, we only know there's only 1 key for the chapel. That leaves the other 5 rooms completely open to manipulation.

Nice catch. But didn't they mention in EP 02 Jessica's room, 使用人室, and Natsuhi's room only had 1 key as well. Some of these rooms in the EP 03 night 1 mystery did appear in EP 02, we probably should look in the past EPs to find more info on these rooms:

1. １階客間 (Shannon's body)... IIRC wasn't this the place where Battler, Eva, & Maria sheltered themselves in at the end of EP 02? Either that or this was the room that Battler was in getting drunk...

2. 貴賓室 (Genji's body).... This is the room "Beatrice" stayed at in EP 02 and where Jessica found the letter that provoked her.

3. ３階控え室 (Gohda's body)... I think this is the first time this room was ever mentioned.

4. ２階客室 (Kumasawa's body)... I also think this the first reference to this room.

5. Boiler room. Well known place in the forum

6. Sanctuary. Also well discussed.

--

Speaking of EP 02....
This is something that just occurred to me.
IIRC there is only 1 key to Natsuhi's room...
If true, Krauss does not have a key.
If true, does that mean Krauss and Natsuhi have separate bed rooms?
If so, how close are these two currently? It seems Natsuhi still loves Krauss,
is it the same other way around? Krauss seems to have respect for Natsuhi...
but if it turns out they do have separate bedrooms then their relationship isn't
as close as Kyrie+Rudolf or Eva+Hideyoshi.

2. Since Walugiria's description was cut off, Beatrice's Closed Room definition was not put onto the 2nd floor guest room, boiler room, and the chapel. That opens the possibilities for all those hidden rooms/passage and what not for those places. After all, ep1 did show that the boiler room can be connected to the courtyard.

What happen to Virgil? I was going to adopt that as I think its the closest name reference we have at the moment.

Also I don't think I was clear in my thoughts, there is a reason why Beatrice cannot red each individual rooms as 密室, as to do so, she needs prove that all the rooms are so. Meaning as long as 1 room isn't, then none of the rooms are locked rooms.

In EP 02, the only room that bodies were found that she didn't red as a locked room is the sanctuary. And as discussed the boiler room and 1st floor guest room as just as suspicious. If in any of these rooms, a master key was taken then later placed back (or a similar action taken) then that solves all 6 locked rooms. The problem is it can't be determined which of these 3 (or if multiples were) are done like so.

But in my mind, if the first floor guest room turns out to be the only room where this is possible, Rudolf+Kyrie skyrockets to #1 suspect. If it's the two rooms... no way to tell. But if it is the boiler room, I think we can discount Natsuhi.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Sorry that I'm just disagreeing with you on everything.

I don't mind that at all. I post here so I can get more insight. Posts which poke at the weakness in my argument/theories are very helpful. This is the gaming aspect to Umineko which I enjoy. My only gripe is I have to wait 6 months for another update, and by that time, I seem to forget what some of my notes that I took meant. ><

[Nadeor]

Wait guys I think we are all taking these too seriously...
Let's think about it, we're not dealing with Sherlock Holmes or Detective Conan cases right now, what we're dealing here, is just another work in the series of "When They Cry". With this it cannot be judged by mere human logics, we have to "Think outside the box".

For example, back in the release of Higurashi Onikakushi and Watanagashi, I went back through the posts of people taking logical reasonings there, and they all went through all the details and evidences trying to prove it's done by either Rika, Satoko, Rena or Mion, none of them thought about what's NOT going on. It turns out that they are infected with the Hinamizawa syndrome and what they saw were just hallucinations, which, none of them had put up.

And From what I can see, Ryukishi meant us to become as mindfucked as this

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Peroyasha

Spoiler:

Nice catch. But didn't they mention in EP 02 Jessica's room, 使用人室, and Natsuhi's room only had 1 key as well. Some of these rooms in the EP 03 night 1 mystery did appear in EP 02, we probably should look in the past EPs to find more info on these rooms:

1. １階客間 (Shannon's body)... IIRC wasn't this the place where Battler, Eva, & Maria sheltered themselves in at the end of EP 02? Either that or this was the room that Battler was in getting drunk...

2. 貴賓室 (Genji's body).... This is the room "Beatrice" stayed at in EP 02 and where Jessica found the letter that provoked her.

3. ３階控え室 (Gohda's body)... I think this is the first time this room was ever mentioned.

4. ２階客室 (Kumasawa's body)... I also think this the first reference to this room.

5. Boiler room. Well known place in the forum

6. Sanctuary. Also well discussed.

--

Speaking of EP 02....
This is something that just occurred to me.
IIRC there is only 1 key to Natsuhi's room...
If true, Krauss does not have a key.
If true, does that mean Krauss and Natsuhi have separate bed rooms?
If so, how close are these two currently? It seems Natsuhi still loves Krauss,
is it the same other way around? Krauss seems to have respect for Natsuhi...
but if it turns out they do have separate bedrooms then their relationship isn't
as close as Kyrie+Rudolf or Eva+Hideyoshi.

The Chapel is also fishy in the way that only the chapel key can be used (not even the master key), if ep2's red text carries over...I wonder if that's got to do with anything.

As to Krauss/Natsuhi having seperate room, I think they do. Ep1 shows that Natsuhi went to sleep by herself and was "saved" by the scopion decoration. However, that doesn't really tell us if their relationship is good or not. It has shown that Krauss doesn't really value Natsuhi's opinions at time, shown throughout ep1~3...

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Rias

It has shown that Krauss doesn't really value Natsuhi's opinions at time, shown throughout ep1~3...

I think that has more to do with Krauss's sexist beliefs

[ClockWorkAngel]

Krauss really treats Natsuhi horribly :S

There hasn't been any scene of showing them having anything near a stable relationship...

And we're never given any info on Rosa's "husband" was he a runner?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

And we're never given any info on Rosa's "husband" was he a runner?

IIRC I think it's said that Rosa doesn't even know who the father of Maria is

[Rias]

Too bad it wasn't Mr. Depp...but it still might have a chance to be Okonogi

[ClockWorkAngel]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

IIRC I think it's said that Rosa doesn't even know who the father of Maria is

Wow, Rosa was very... proactive.

[Nadeor]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Wow, Rosa was very... proactive.

L...OL...
Does that mean Rosa is actually a W*ore?
Lol, no wonder Kinzo calls Maria dirty

Hopefully Maria will find happiness some day

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

IIRC I think it's said that Rosa doesn't even know who the father of Maria is

Well the only refereces I remember from him are:

From Kinzo:
楼座はどこの馬の骨ともわからん男の赤ん坊など生みおって！！

Rosa brought to the world a baby from a nobody!!

Maria Tip:
桜座の娘。父親は知らない。
Rosa's daughter. Father unknown.

I guess he just ran away when he saw Rosa with a big belly

[orange541]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

Well the only refereces I remember from him are:

From Kinzo:
楼座はどこの馬の骨ともわからん男の赤ん坊など生みおって！！

Rosa brought to the world a baby from a nobody!!

Maria Tip:
桜座の娘。父親は知らない。
Rosa's daughter. Father unknown.

I guess he just ran away when he saw Rosa with a big belly

Maybe he was Onikakushi-ed by Kinzo.
And for that reason Rosa resent Kinzo.
And then...

[nagare]

Possibilities for Maria's father:

1. Maria's father is a servant (Genji, the one that quit, another X-non which we have not met, etc). Rosa can't say anything b/c how strongly the family will resent this. Probable. The game is pushing these types of relationships.

2. The family only meets 1 time annually. If Rosa missed 1 meeting and faked her pregnancy, than Maria could be adopted. I highly doubt this as I absolutely see no reason for Rosa to kill her reputation even further with the family.

3. Whore.

4. Incest. Extremely doubtful.

5. The father is someone that Kinzo does not approve.
Then the father where-about is...
a. Dead
b. Missing (Military and is MIA, boating accident, etc)
c. Ran off

6. Artificial insemination. Rosa just wanted a kid but couldn't keep a stable relationships with anyone.
That explains Kinzo's anger: 楼座はどこの馬の骨ともわからん男の赤ん坊など生みおって！！
and why no one knows who the father is.


Those are the possibilities I could think of. I'm leaning on (1). (5b) and (6) then (5a) as runner ups. This likelihood is on baseless instinct. (1) b/c of the relationships in the game, and if (5ab) or (6) then father could have rights to the fortune. (5c) and (3) also can claim rights too but I'm just basing my guts on the others ones first. If (5b) that might explain the time when the Beatrice portrait was put up. While I'm no legal expert, there is a legal time frame where someone who is missing can be declared legally dead. Since Maria is 9, then maybe this legal time frame in Japan is 7~8 years during the '70~80? In Higurashi, Ryukishi 07 did pull up legal information in the TIPS section for child abuse for during Japan in the '80s, so maybe Ryukishi went through the same trouble here?

[Rias]

I think there's a good possiblity that Rosa's husband is not the father of Maria. Knowing Ginzo's attitude, I don't think he would allow a marrage without throughly checking out the person beforehand, just like what happened to Hideyoshi. どこの馬の骨ともわからん男 would apply to the person that Kinzo doesn't even know about.

Furthurmore, I think the Ushinomiya family knows who the husband is, as it was only said that Rosa's husband hasn't attend the family meeting for years. In other words, he has attended it before.