[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

No, the original cause of the logic error was that Erika cheated by killing all the first twilight victims except Battler off-screen without telling him. Battler's planned story didn't actually have any murders to begin with, and he always intended for his own "corpse" to vanish from the guestroom.

I guess I worded it wrong.

I knew the deaths were fake, but I thought the reason the logic error happened was because Erika said she "rekilled" them and Battler said he wasn't dead or something like that...

[Marion]

The fact that Erika did this offscreen and Battler didn't realize it makes me wonder how much of a vision field the GM has on the gameboard. It can't be the entire island, otherwise Battler would have known about Erika killing them all and deal with it before the logic error arose.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Wasn't the original cause of the logic error that Piece Battler died in the first twilight and Battler cheated and said his piece didn't die?

Ah, no no no no...

Here's basically what happened:
-All victims of the first twilight faked their deaths.
-Erika tricked Battler and he revised the story in a way that allowed her to seal three rooms. However, she did not accept the detective authority.
-Erika confirmed everyone's location and then sealed the cousin's room, the neigboring room, and the room where Battler faked his death.
-Erika killed Kyrie, Eva, Natsuhi, Rosa, and Maria.
-Erika confirmed that the seal was still on Battler's room before she entered the guest room so Battler had to be in there.
-Erika broke her seal and entered the guest room but immediately repaired the chain lock after she entered the room. (Note: It is not possible to set the chain lock from outside the guest room)
-Erika searched the room but could not find Battler immediately.
-Erika searched the bathroom and ran into a trap that distracted her while Battler escaped from the room.
-Battler confirmed with red truth that he no longer existed in the room.
-Battler confirmed that the chain lock was set. This means that someone had to set it from inside the room after Battler left.
-Battler's plan was to have one of the other people who faked their deaths set the chain after he left the room. However, he did not know that Erika had killed those people. Since everyone outside the room was either sealed in one of the rooms or dead there was no chance for anyone to set the chain lock after he left the room. (Erika did not set it)

That is the logic error. No one could have saved Battler.

However, Beato came up with a solution. Kanon was able to set the chain lock after Battler left the room. Somehow this was possible even though he was supposed to be sealed in the cousin's room.

So the obvious solution is that Kanon simply switched places with Battler and set the chain lock right? That's what Erika thought. Then Beato gave the red truth:

ベッドルームに嘉音は存在しない。
Beato: Kanon does not exist inside the bedroom.

客室に、嘉音は存在しない。………もちろん、クローゼット、ベッドルーム、バスルーム、この全てにおいてで ある。
Beato: Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. …Naturally, this includes the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom, in their entirety.

Ok, so now you with all of us. How did Kanon disappear from that room?

[Judoh]

Kanon was the detective in episode 6 giving him the authority to investigate all the rooms? He was never in one room at any time to begin with.

[Marion]

As far as it goes, I think the easiest solution is dying. Dead people don't count to any number counting and no longer exist in the game. Of course, we see Kanon's body literally vanishing, so it isn't really possible - otherwise Erika could solve it saying "Kanon died and his body is in the closet"

[Judoh]

If it were like that wouldn't they specify that it was "a living Kanon" that doesn't exist in the guestroom? In episode 5 they at least had the courtesy to refer to Kinzo as "a living Kinzo" when talking about his existence. I think there is a dichotomy with the red there.

Edit: I'm just wondering. Since Erika threw away her detective's authority could we really argue that somebody else is the detective in episode 6? Are there any hints for it? It just doesn't feel right to have a story without a detective. Even if that person is dead. Maybe what we're supposed to argue is that Detective X's perspective is more reliable than Battler's or Erika's and then we can understand it better.

[SeagullCrazy]

Wasn't the logic error originally created because of the letter Erika found?

First, Erika sealed the two rooms in the guest house. Then. Erika went downstairs and found the letter. Someone must have put it there. She suspected that Battler faked his death and was alive in the guest room. Note that after the letter is found, she apologizes to Battler for not telling him sooner that she sealed the guest room with her third seal. His original plan was to have Battler go out of the guest room, place the letter, and return. But Erika sealed the room, so if he did that, it would create a logic error.

Battler's thoughts:

Spoiler for size, Japanese:

あぁそうさ。確かに俺は、戦人が実は生きていて、客室から抜け出すことによって、死体消失と手紙を置いたと いう２つの結果を与える予定だった。　しかし、その手の内を明かしたこの段階でのシナリオ変更は、それを看 破されたことを認めるも同然だ。　ここは意地になってでも、看破されたことを認めたくない。　俺がのこのこ と客室から抜け出して、封印を破った、という無様な筋書き変更を認めたくない。　何とか、客室の封印は維持 したままで、手紙を置き、さらに俺の死体も消失させるというトリックに、……すり替えたい…。

Spoiler for size, poor translation:

Well, well. I was planning to give 2 results which put corpse disappearance and a letter by Battler's living and sneaking from a guest room actually certainly. But that you penetrated that for scenario change at this stage to which the skill was disclosed, it's admitted, it's same. I don't want to allow to have been perverse here and have been penetrated. I don't want me. ... still maintains a seal in the guest room and puts a letter somehow, and would like to replace more... with the trick to make my stiff disappear....

I mean, yes, it ended up revolving around Kanon and Battler... but the mystery with the letter wasn't really resolved, was it?

[chronotrig]

Dang this thread moves fast... It's now larger than the image thread...

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier. Finally found it.
Yes, you could try and argue with the "it is not the case" part, but the sentence could be rewritten in English as:

After the construction of the closed room, it is not the case that one of them committed suicide after committing murder!

So, just to be certain, I'd like to see the original Japanese line and the best translation for it.

I took special care with that sentence. Yes, the original Japanese leaves it wide open for the "closed room construction" to be part of the "not", but like the English line, it doesn't explicitly confirm or deny that there was a closed room.

However, even if it did, that wouldn't mean anything. Sure, Eva and Hideyoshi's guest room might have been a closed room before the chain was cut, but what if the chain was cut before they were killed? This red says nothing about that possibility.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

However, even if it did, that wouldn't mean anything. Sure, Eva and Hideyoshi's guest room might have been a closed room before the chain was cut, but what if the chain was cut before they were killed? This red says nothing about that possibility.

Then I guess it would just boil down to whether you believe Kanon killed them after cutting the chain or not.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

However, even if it did, that wouldn't mean anything. Sure, Eva and Hideyoshi's guest room might have been a closed room before the chain was cut, but what if the chain was cut before they were killed? This red says nothing about that possibility.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Then I guess it would just boil down to whether you believe Kanon killed them after cutting the chain or not.

I've been saying this FOREVER! Battler says in response to Beatrice that the real answer is that murder = not a closed room. If the chain is cut before they are killed it's a murder and not a closed room. This even gets put in the "And Then I knew..." scene so it's obvious he's correct with this defintition.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I've been saying this FOREVER! Battler says in response to Beatrice that the real answer is that murder = not a closed room. If the chain is cut before they are killed it's a murder and not a closed room. This even gets put in the "And Then I knew..." scene so it's obvious he's correct with this defintition.

The thing is, there are really 3 theories at this point (assuming that means its a closed room):

-EP6 closed room trick (posted here)
-Kanon killed them after cutting the chain (your theory)
-Sayo killed them after cutting the chain (Shkanon theory)

This is the next problem. There isn't much evidence left to eliminate any more theories. All I can think of is evidence that supports them.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't see why the shkanon theory should necessarily lead to the third option.

The first option (your theory) for example could work with anyone that "died" in the first twilight. Kyrie, just to mention one, could technically do the same thing, and btw this is what Ijriims has been proposing since a long while.

You are also forgetting another quite obvious possibility considering the scenarios shown in EP5 and EP6.

Eva and Hideyoshi faked their own death, as part of a game or a conspiracy. their murder happened after their corpses were found, in a similar fashion of what Erika did in EP6.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't see why the shkanon theory should necessarily lead to the third option.

The first option (your theory) for example could work with anyone that "died" in the first twilight. Kyrie, just to mention one, could technically do the same thing, and btw this is what Ijriims has been proposing since a long while.

No, I believe it's only possible with Shannon.
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
So Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, and Gohda definitely died.
And Krauss and Shannon's corpses should be considered "identifiable corpses".
Battler only sees Krauss's identifiable corpse, though, not Shannon's. Which means that Shannon could have faked her death.

You are also forgetting another quite obvious possibility considering the scenarios shown in EP5 and EP6.

Eva and Hideyoshi faked their own death, as part of a game or a conspiracy. their murder happened after their corpses were found, in a similar fashion of what Erika did in EP6.

That was only for the first twilight. I was thinking that after the first twilight, everyone in on the conspiracy would have realized "Oh crap, they're really dead, this isn't a game anymore." I don't see why they would have faked their deaths after the first twilight.

For the sake of argument, even if they did fake their deaths, the only one who could have killed them at a later time would be Kanon or Shannon, so we're back where we started.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

No, I believe it's only possible with Shannon.
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
So Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, and Gohda definitely died.
And Krauss and Shannon's corpses should be considered "identifiable corpses".
Battler only sees Krauss's identifiable corpse, though, not Shannon's. Which means that Shannon could have faked her death.

The original red referred to Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo though

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Lambdadelta said that other red later, but dead people killing Kanon and the others were central to his theory so I guess you might be right. And personally Shannon is central to some of my theories in episode 1.

Also Lambda also gave us this red.

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

and yet we have red saying There was no one hiding in the chapel.

Think about it this way. What if when they were discovered the six people were alive? Who was the first person to enter the chapel that could've killed them? Rosa. The six people were playing a fake death game. They were alive before Rosa opened the door and entered the chapel.


EDIT: Actually there is a simpler explanation:The small bombs went off at the exact the moment that the Discoverers saw their corpses. One of the discoverers was the person who placed the small bombs in the food. (possibly unknowingly)

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

That was only for the first twilight. I was thinking that after the first twilight, everyone in on the conspiracy would have realized "Oh crap, they're really dead, this isn't a game anymore." I don't see why they would have faked their deaths after the first twilight.

For the sake of argument, even if they did fake their deaths, the only one who could have killed them at a later time would be Kanon or Shannon, so we're back where we started.

No there is another instance where they fake their deaths. Nanjo and Kumasawa in episode 2. When Kanon supposedly kills them (showing he has the potential to murder people). It was also never proclaimed those two were dead at that time so it's possible they were killed outside By George's group.

[Jan-Poo]

no, I believe it's only possible with Shannon.
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed

That's not so easy

This argument has been discussed extensively and a well known loophole is that the red is useless if kyrie and the others weren't "corpses" in the first place.


As for the second point. Someone could have killed Eva and Hideyoshi taking advantage of the ruckus caused by Kanon and Kumasawa during the next twilight. Kanon was not killed by a third party, so it is obvious that the culprit wasn't really with him when that happened.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The original red referred to Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo though

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Lambdadelta said that other red later, but dead people killing Kanon were central to his theory so I guess you might be right. And personally Shannon is central to some of my theories in episode 1.

Yes, I was referring to the other red Lambda said.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Also Lambda also gave us this red.

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

Think about it this way. What if when they were discovered the six people were alive? Who was the first person to enter the chapel that could've killed them? Rosa. The six people were playing a fake death game. They were alive before Rosa unlocked the door and entered the chapel.

Er, what? The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! Also, there's no way the six could have gotten in before Rosa. Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Originally Posted by Judoh

No there is another instance where they fake their deaths. Nanjo and Kumasawa in episode 2. When Kanon supposedly kills them (showing he has the potential to murder people). They also never proclaimed those two were dead at that time so it's possible they were killed outside By George's group.

Is there any proof that the servants would be in the same conspiracy group as Eva and Hideyoshi? They might have faked their deaths for a different reason.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's not so easy

This argument has been discussed extensively and a well known loophole is that the red is useless if kyrie and the others weren't "corpses" in the first place.

Still, if you're suggesting they were fake corpses, no body double tricks exist. Or what if they were just playing dead? Then wouldn't they just be re-killed before they were discovered? Shannon is the culprit for the EP1 first twilight, regardless of whether the other five were playing a game or not. Then she mixed in with the dead bodies and faked her death.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for the second point. Someone could have killed Eva and Hideyoshi taking advantage of the ruckus caused by Kanon and Kumasawa during the next twilight. Kanon was not killed by a third party, so it is obvious that the culprit wasn't really with him when that happened.

Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda were re-killed at the first twilight.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
Natsuhi oba-san is pure and faithful!
Battler was with George, Jessica, and Maria.

That leaves only Kanon and Shannon.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Yes, I was referring to the other red Lambda said.



Er, what? The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! Also, there's no way the six could have gotten in before Rosa. Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Then It was never locked in the first place!

When was the discovery time ever specified? Battler never saw the condition of the victims before Rosa entered the chapel. The time of discovery could just as easily be at the time when George Jessica and Battler entered and witnessed it themselves!

Edit: Obviously if Rosa is the murderer she can't be the person to discover the victims...

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Is there any proof that the servants would be in the same conspiracy group as Eva and Hideyoshi? They might have faked their deaths for a different reason.

When did I say that? All I said was they faked their deaths. The person who came up with the idea is probably the same in every episode.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Gohda were re-killed at the first twilight.
Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers
Natsuhi oba-san is pure and faithful!
Battler was with George, Jessica, and Maria.

That leaves only Kanon and Shannon.

Unless you go by the shkanon theory that somebody dies in a duel before each of the games.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Then It was never locked in the first place!

When was the discovery time ever specified? Battler never saw the condition of the victims before Rosa entered the chapel. The time of discovery could just as easily be at the time when George Jessica and Battler entered and witnessed it themselves!

Ok, I guess that works, but personally I don't want to suspect Rosa in EP2.

EDIT:

Edit: Obviously if Rosa is the murderer she can't be the person to discover the victims...

Time for some twisted logic. If Rosa is the person to discover the victims, then she can't be the murderer.

Originally Posted by Judoh

When did I say that? All I said was they faked their deaths. The person who came up with the idea is probably the same in every episode.

I was just thinking that maybe the servants faked their deaths for a different reason than the adults would... but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Unless you go by the shkanon theory that somebody dies in a duel before each of the games.

I'm trying to find a solution without Shkanon, so that really isn't an option for me...
(but if that were true, then it automatically rules out the EP6 closed room trick)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

Ok, I guess that works, but personally I don't want to suspect Rosa in EP2.

Well I'm not sayin I like that idea either it just fits the pattern after episode 5 and 6.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

EDIT:
Time for some twisted logic. If Rosa is the person to discover the victims, then she can't be the murderer.

True

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I was just thinking that maybe the servants faked their deaths for a different reason than the adults would... but I don't know.

(sarcasm) Well obviously since Nanjo's granddaughter is such a genius at disguise her motive was to scare the fuck out of everybody for her own pleasure. Mostly Gohda.

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I'm trying to find a solution without Shkanon, so that really isn't an option for me...
(but if that were true, then it automatically rules out the EP6 closed room trick)

I feel your pain. I'm trying to find a solution without Shkanon and Erika doesn't exist. They both seem to lack anything that would be a huge reveal to the plot.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I feel your pain. I'm trying to find a solution without Shkanon and Erika doesn't exist. They both seem to lack anything that would be a huge reveal to the plot.

I'm finding it hard to imagine a reveal any huger than two of the characters being each other