Steins;Gate - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by wxyz

23 didn't disappoint, for sure. i guess 22 was a tad better, but ymmv and we don't mind about comparisons, it's the same exact series that pulled two very good eps in a row.

- what's with the "you can't meet your previous self otherwise very bad things happen"? weren't the spectators lectured about worldlines etc and the fact that meeting (another worldline's previous self) was indeed perfectly possible? and in the end, his older self phones his younger self possibly triggering the paradox...

You can't meet physically which would definitely cause a time paradox, but it is entirely possible to "show and tell" using D-mails (which is what the future Okabe did here), after all that has been what they've been doing when they created the Microwave - they send mails to the past self (D-mails), such as in Moeka's case, or the lottery ticket number.

As for why the future Okabe "exists" and how it changes, again it is entirely explainable by the time theory and Attraction Field theory. First thing you have to keep in mind is that "time" exists all at the same time - it is only to the observer that it appears to flow forward, so in one instance past, present, future all exists so to speak, this is true for any time travel stories. Now Attraction Field theory in Steins;Gate says that when some significant event happens that is able to cause a divergence in the world line then the past/present/future will be reconstructed to the least paradoxical outcome, and this is what happened here. "Present" Okabe experience a life altering event thus instantly caused "Future" Okabe to change, thus looping back to the "past" to make the D-mail happen.

- if he succeed in fooling himself, the resulting current-time okabe (original WL) should be aware of the trick and thus not so sorry about Kurisu to build the TM

The reconstructed past memories aren't grafted to the present for the observer when the world line changes. As demonstrated when Okabe changed world lines in all the previous episodes when they were experimenting with D-mails, to the observing Okabe it actually appears to have "lost time" because he has no memories of the past.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Everyone has it as told to us time and again (all the girls remember stuff from the other world lines), only that Okabe's is stronger than everyone elses.

And just because you explain people have the ability doesn't explain the ability itself. I can tell you gravity exists everywhere in the universe, I can even tell you that it always follows the same rules and is stronger for some things than for others but unless I tell you why it exists or how it works I haven't actually explained it now have I?

Sure the show has told us everyone has the Reading Steiner and that Okabe for some reason has a stronger sense of it than most other people yet we still don't know why it exists or how it works. Get it?

Now I won't complain since I'm happy with things as they stand. If they went and tried to explain how the reading steiner works we would probably end up with stuff like (athos forbid) midichlorians ruining what's otherwise a great story.

/rant

As for the episode I found it very good indeed aside from some hiccups in the animation near the end there when Okabe was back in his mad scientist mode but since it was a complex "camera angle" and the rest of the episode was all kinds of awesome I'll let it slide.

With Katanagatari under their belt and now the amazing product that Steins;Gate is turning out to be White Fox is starting to rank pretty high on my personal ranking of animation studios, I better start paying attention to what comes out of them each season.

[Mentar]

The good news: Chris WILL be saved, it's official now. Makes me a happy camper ^_^

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Dextro

And just because you explain people have the ability doesn't explain the ability itself. I can tell you gravity exists everywhere in the universe, I can even tell you that it always follows the same rules and is stronger for some things than for others but unless I tell you why it exists or how it works I haven't actually explained it now have I?

Thanks for bringing up gravity which just proves the point further - since we know it exist but we still don't know how it works and that is a fact too in current scientific fields, but doesn't alter its properties and that it exists. It's the same for Reading Steiner, plus as the original poster asked was why Okabe has Reading Steiner, which my answer "everyone has it but Okabe just has a stronger one" is a perfectly fine answer.

[Eater of All]

10/10. I love these coming-together moments in sci-fi stories, especially when it's so well executed. This reminds me of Ever17's epic reveal.

Originally Posted by Jean Claymore

Spoiler for space:

@viperdk1 Yeah, I know. While I did mean the future Okabe wouldn't recognize what had happened in the alpha worldline, it would have been also possible that he, in the future self wouldn't recognize them at all since the beta worldline (whether its persent or future) would consider the alpha worldline events as if never happened even though he has the ability to read stainers (and yes, my beliefs where wrong ). It's not like I'm complaining, but it's kinda surprising when the future himself also remembers these faded events (which it doesn't remark as a fact in history) and takes his perfect plan going into the Steins;Gate

Originally Posted by wxyz

Spoiler for space:

nice "time-looping" explanation, but still it doesn't fit completely.:
- ooookay, okarin shouldn't try to get rid of the alternative worldlines to make the whole trip to SG possible (still, seems very possible that anyway he's not changing anything in the worldlines and just shifting is point of view in a more sefishly confortable one, but who can fight destiny and win? we can't blame him, right?)
- ok, the "fail once" route is needed to create the "15-year long future with a WW in the middle", in which okabe-san conceives his plan to fool the world.
- what's with the "you can't meet your previous self otherwise very bad things happen"? weren't the spectators lectured about worldlines etc and the fact that meeting (another worldline's previous self) was indeed perfectly possible? and in the end, his older self phones his younger self possibly triggering the paradox...
- if he succeed in fooling himself, the resulting current-time okabe (original WL) should be aware of the trick and thus not so sorry about Kurisu to build the TM

Now that I think about it, Steins;Gate's system of time travel is one of the most elaborate I've ever seen, because it functions BOTH ways, that is:
1. With worldlines (multiverse)
2. With stable causation (self-consistency)

The causation is possible because of Okarin's perception. It is also the easiest to follow, since despite all these worldline shifts and time leaps, what Okarin experiences can be expressed as a defined list of events, such as:
1. Alpha timeline, see Kurisu dead
2. Send D-mail, gets sensed by SERN
3. Beta timeline
4. ...etc.
It makes sense then that, in the timeline known as the Okarin Timeline, his past self will experience these events sooner or later, his present self will be experiencing these events, and his future self will have experienced all these same events. Therefore, his future self WILL know what his past self is experiencing.


Think of it this way. You have a timeline. It doesn't change, no matter what things anybody does inside it. Changing worldlines is simply nothing more than changing rooms. It doesn't change the fact that you were at worldline (room) 001 now that you are at worldline (room) 002 or even if you go back afterwards.

EDIT: A picture would probably make my horrible explanation much easier to understand....

[Battler-kun]

Just awesome.

Okabe is actually god now.

He is past , present and future in 1 person and with his abilitiy to maintain his memory over different world lines, he is god!

[xellos2099]

I understand the concept of what future Okabe is trying but just because he will be able to convince himself Kurisu is dead won't be able to cancel out her attractor field unless her death is not predetermined like Mayuri.

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

I understand the concept of what future Okabe is trying but just because he will be able to convince himself Kurisu is dead won't be able to cancel out her attractor field unless her death is not predetermined like Mayuri.

It's hard to understand since we're watching this from Present Okabe's view.

But that video Future Okabe sent to Present Okabe was a perfected D-mail...and we know what D-mails do

[Crontica]

Maybe Reading Steiner is the phones frequency and you have to hold unto the phone for it to work,
when he told Moeka to send a message back into the past and it worked, both of them shifted to the new timeline but Moeka kept quiet about it.

[xellos2099]

From my understanding, Okabe MUST send out the dmail that say Kurisu has been stabbbed to Duri and cause the world shift to alpha timeline. However, if all Otabe THINK Kurisu has been stab and send out the dmail, it will still shift to alpha time line but when he return to beta timeline, the theory is that Kurisu will live if she is not kill by attractor field.

Well lying to his past self is one thing but lying to the attractor field/God sound AS crazy as insane as Lulu geass god in Code Geass.

[ars89]

back to back eps of epicness and leaving me speechless.

[fertygo]

Man.. I'm just realize how iconic the OP song is... its still make you hyped to the show and its presenting the image of the show and everything about it with very well

And Uchuu Engineer for insert song didn't disappoint!

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Riga92

It's hard to understand since we're watching this from Present Okabe's view.

But that video Future Okabe sent to Present Okabe was a perfected D-mail...and we know what D-mails do

Mind = Blown. This bastard just won the game.

So that practically means that Future!Okarin's Reading Steiner activated when Present!Okarin completed the D-Movies mission, leading to Future!Okarin getting Kurisu back.

[RadiantBeam]

Seeing this episode, I'm so glad that I went with my gut and rewatched the first few episodes of Steins;Gate with the anime club last Friday. It made the details of episode one extremely clear and helped me form the connections for this week's episode.

And so the mad scientist has returned! Let's see if he can still strut his stuff and change the world just as he always said he would.

[DragoZERO]

So awesome... so.. awesome. I jumped out of my seat when he stabbed her too. The irony killed me.

Looking forward to an awesome finale here. I'll be buying this series if gets a proper release and the VN when it's finished being TLed.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

From my understanding, Okabe MUST send out the dmail that say Kurisu has been stabbbed to Duri and cause the world shift to alpha timeline. However, if all Otabe THINK Kurisu has been stab and send out the dmail, it will still shift to alpha time line but when he return to beta timeline, the theory is that Kurisu will live if she is not kill by attractor field.

Well lying to his past self is one thing but lying to the attractor field/God sound AS crazy as insane as Lulu geass god in Code Geass.

Simple explanation: Kurisu ISN'T dead. Everyone just thinks she is.

Long explanation: According to quantum theory, Kurisu is both in a state of living and death. She is observed to be "dead" by pretty much Okarin and the world, but what the world observed may not be "real", i.e. it could be that Kurisu is actually alive but living in some remote place where nobody knows her.

Okarin apparently cannot change the past so that Kurisu can appear "alive" to the world, but he can manipulate it so that she is "dead" to the world but "alive" to him (not the him that found the corpse, at any rate).


Also, I just made a very crude timeline of Okarin's adventures. It's too small, and I stopped giving a crap midway through, but maybe it'll clarify some things for someone out there, hopefully. Note that future Okarin (15 years later) has been through these same events, because every Okarin in whatever time will inevitably experience the Okarin Timeline.

Speaking of which, is there some official S;G Timeline image that Nitro+ was kind enough to ever release?

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

Simple explanation: Kurisu ISN'T dead. Everyone just thinks she is.

Looking back on it now, every time Kurisu was referred to with her "death", all it ever said was she was stabbed; in the Beta timeline, it's never established if that stab actually killed her, or if she was found by someone other than Okabe and survived.

[xellos2099]

Well.. she was never stabbed in alpha time line due to the time machine accident. However, it is established at the beginning that Kurisu is dead as Duri point out.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

Well.. she was never stabbed in alpha time line due to the time machine accident. However, it is established at the beginning that Kurisu is dead as Duri point out.

What Daru says doesn't matter, because his observation is not absolute.

Hm... let's look at it this way. You know the clock right now reads 7:00 PM, or whatever time in your timezone. How do you know it's completely accurate? What if someone messed with your clock without you knowing? What if the entire globe's clock is messed with, and it's "actually" 7:05 PM?

As long as it "appears" consistent, what "actually" happens is of no importance. As long as Kurisu "appears" to be dead to the world and the two previous Okarins who saw her corpse, it doesn't matter if she's "actually" alive.

[xellos2099]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

What Daru says doesn't matter, because his observation is not absolute.

Hm... let's look at it this way. You know the clock right now reads 7:00 PM, or whatever time in your timezone. How do you know it's completely accurate? What if someone messed with your clock without you knowing? What if the entire globe's clock is messed with, and it's "actually" 7:05 PM?

As long as it "appears" consistent, what "actually" happens is of no importance. As long as Kurisu "appears" to be dead to the world and the two previous Okarins who saw her corpse, it doesn't matter if she's "actually" alive.

What i am saying it: If Duri know about it, it must meant it is on the news and thus.. there is a dead body there.