Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Qilin

but he could just as easily die in a blaze of glory.

or die like a dog,

Gen does like to kick a man when he is down.

[Ithekro]

Or give false hope....Gen loves false hope.

[gim]

Thank you, for all the answers, now that make sense.

[HomuHomu92]

Kariya is a tragic character, but now I´m starting to wonder...he always claimed that his goal was to save Sakura but in this episode it was revealed that Aoi was his motivation the whole time. When Aoi said those things to him...well, he lost his motivation to fight.

I don´t know how to define his situation, but as noble as his intentions were, in the end his motivations were selfish (kill Tokiomi, because he believed that with his dead everything was going to be okay). But I also consider the fact that he doesn´t has so much time left....

[Craxuan]

Uwa, these guys are so young.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Touko

The Three Great Houses were idealistic and noble. They respect each other.

Tohsaka had no idea that the Matou's had fallen so far from their original ideals, so he still trusted them. The whole point of this is supposed to be a tragic dramatic irony. In other words, Tokiomi thought he did his daughter a great blessing, but in truth, he threw her into a fire pit.

The "Tokiomi told Kirei that Zouken was dangerous" was a tactical assessment.

Zouken is many times the magus Tokiomi or Kirei is.

He still pretty much brought her into this world without the full knowledge he could protect her, that is very selfish. Also that Matou is a failing house, by their own merits and for their own reasons (It's common knowledge that they were too proud to take on apprentices and allowed their bloodline to thin further and further, where even taking in new blood didn't seem to help - Shinji's mother was the daughter of a magus and it didn't do jack squat). Nor has Zouken ever passed on his Crest to anyone.

It's not so much dramatic irony as it is the fact he was too traditional in thoughts and motive. "Surely our old rivals, noble a house as they are, will welcome and groom my daughter right! I won't even need to check on her occasionally, I'm sure they're legit." Despite the numerous points to the contrary that they were a declining house who has made several inept decisions. We're looking at pure naivety there.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He still pretty much brought her into this world without the full knowledge he could protect her, that is very selfish.

he didn't count on Sakura being born with Talent equaling Rin. Having 2 children with Gifts like Rin and Sakura is like winning the lottery twice in a row.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

he didn't count on Sakura being born with Talent equaling Rin. Having 2 children with Gifts like Rin and Sakura is like winning the lottery twice in a row.

He didn't count on the woman who had a trait of making superchildren, to have a super child? Really? You buy that?

Like I said though, that is still pretty much rolling the dice, which was still selfish.
He had Rin, there was no reason, and even moreso lots of reasons not to have another child.

[Ithekro]

Considering how they view modern techology and that would have been in the late 1980s or 1990....they might not have believed in using birth control. Or, this being Tokiomi, his magic protection failed him because he was off by an hour.

[Altima of the Gates]

That doesn't really make things seem better, given they know the nature of the repercussions.
That would be an explanation, but doesn't make them seem any less irresponsible.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Or, this being Tokiomi, his magic protection failed him because he was off by an hour.

Roflmao, that is genius. XD

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He didn't count on the woman who had a trait of making superchildren, to have a super child? Really? You buy that?

Like I said though, that is still pretty much rolling the dice, which was still selfish.
He had Rin, there was no reason, and even moreso lots of reasons not to have another child.

Nobody is making out Tokiomi to be a saint. I'm sure everyone here accepts that he has his episodes of selfishness, and, quite frankly, a truly selfless character would end up more similar to Kiritsugu than anyone else.

[Altima of the Gates]

Well we can't even really say that given the enormity of the damage his wish could cause. Trying to rewrite human nature could even be seen as more selfish, and not weighing the terrible price to be paid in the long run by essentially lobotomizing humanity.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", as much as I hate that phrase, sometimes rings true.

[blue_sora]

So episode 22 preview screenshots are out:

Spoiler for Episode 22: CHOKING FROM TEARS:

Yes ufotable, keep making Waver as girly as you can. Satisfy the fangirls with dere dere Waver.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He still pretty much brought her into this world without the full knowledge he could protect her, that is very selfish. Also that Matou is a failing house, by their own merits and for their own reasons (It's common knowledge that they were too proud to take on apprentices and allowed their bloodline to thin further and further, where even taking in new blood didn't seem to help - Shinji's mother was the daughter of a magus and it didn't do jack squat). Nor has Zouken ever passed on his Crest to anyone.

It's not so much dramatic irony as it is the fact he was too traditional in thoughts and motive. "Surely our old rivals, noble a house as they are, will welcome and groom my daughter right! I won't even need to check on her occasionally, I'm sure they're legit." Despite the numerous points to the contrary that they were a declining house who has made several inept decisions. We're looking at pure naivety there.

Spoiler:

What inept decision?

The lineage is dying. Zouken does not care how his descents are breeding. NOTHING is going to reverse that. And this is the reason Zouken did not do a thing about Byakuya marrying some random wench. (Shinji's mom is from some 3rd rate House. You would not expect good result either way.)

He harbored a little glimmer of hope about taking advantage of Aoi's trait, but Kariya quit on him. That's why he hated Kariya so much and wanted to torment him.

Tokiomi is not privy to all this. All he knew was Matou was once their powerful ally in forging the Grail, and for all he knew, still is.

Also, you do not just snoop around another mage's workshop and have a open tour.

You can rage about Sakura's situation all you want, but you are looking at this through the 4th wall.

Tokiomi made the right decisions as a magus who does not want to doom his daughter to popping babies for another mage house, given the information he had.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Touko

Spoiler:

What inept decision?

The lineage is dying. Zouken does not care how his descents are breeding. NOTHING is going to reverse that. And this is the reason Zouken did not do a thing about Byakuya marrying some random wench.

He harbored a little glimmer of hope about taking advantage of Aoi's trait, but Kariya quit on him. That's why he hated Kariya so much and wanted to torment him.

Tokiomi is not privy to all this. All he knew was Matou was once their powerful ally in forging the Grail, and for all he knew, still is.

Also, you do not just snoop around another mage's workshop and have a open tour.

You can rage about Sakura's situation all you want, but you are looking at this through the 4th wall.

Tokiomi made the right decisions as a magus who does not want to doom his daughter to popping babies for another mage house, given the information he had.

Tokiomi made the right decisions as a magus who does not want to doom his daughter to popping babies for another mage house, given the information he had.

or spend her life in a bottle of formaldehyde.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He didn't count on the woman who had a trait of making superchildren, to have a super child? Really? You buy that?

Aoi has that trait but it is not a 100% guaranteed.

[ChronoReverse]

It's also not a well-known trait if Tokiomi didn't seem to be aware of it until Sakura.

It seems there's quite the lack of empathy going here; a literal lack of the ability to be in the character's shoes is almost prevalent. It's a lot easier to criticize when you have more knowledge and didn't grow up in the circumstances. Doubly so because this is a fictional piece where the way people act only has to be internally consistent and not necessarily consistent with reality. This is a world where someone like Shirou and Kirei exist for instance.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well, Kariya's target in the war is gone. And to get full, undistracted, use out of Berserker in his effort to win the war and thus the Grail and keep his end of the deal to save Sakura....He must throw Berserker against Saber. Otherwise Berserker will go for her anyway and it serves no purpose for Kariya. So focusing on Saber is the only thing he can do now to fulfill his goal in the war.

The problem is... I can't see Kariya lasting very long if he challenges Kiritsugu's Servant. In the state he is, he'll almost certainly be an easy target for him and his sniper. And Kariya ending up being killed by Kiritsugu would be exceedingly sad, considering the two got into the war with similar wishes to save others and willing to sacrifice themselves. But given the downward spiral the show has been lately, I could definitely see it happening. Ideally Kiritsugu and Kariya would team up against Kirei, but once again poor communication and, of course, the Berserker factor, likely won't allow that to happen.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Ok just out of curiosity.

What caused the magus blood in Zoukan to thin out to the point his heirs have poor afinity for magic and so forth?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Ok just out of curiosity.

What caused the magus blood in Zoukan to thin out to the point his heirs have poor afinity for magic and so forth?

i don't think it was every explain other then the Matou line has been failing. Although pure chance could revitalize it again. Touko's family line was failing and almost completely mundane until she and Aoko was born.