2011-09-04, 17:22 | Link #24162 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I do not require chatter. Let's continue. 'Your name is Ushiromiya Battler'." "......Sure. My name is Ushiromiya Battler." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you were born." "It was from Ushiromiya, ......, ......nguh, ............?! ......?!?!" As you can see he knows that Asumu had a baby who should technically be called Battler. Since he was a newborn back then when Asumu had a baby the only way he could know is if someone else told him. It's not direct knowledge. |
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2011-09-04, 17:26 | Link #24163 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, it's Kinzo who picked up the names for his grandchildren apart from Maria so Asumu's child's name should have been Battler. No idea if Kirye had thought to a name or if she wanted to call him Battler as well or... whatever else but, unless Asumu's child were to be a girl I'm sure he would have been called Battler. Rudolf switched the names so that Battler ended up being Kirye's baby while Kirye's baby ended up being Battler 2. To make things simple let's assume Kirye never though to a name to give to her baby and didn't want to name 'him' once she was told 'he' was dead and we've two Battler, Asumu's and Kirye's. |
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2011-09-04, 18:14 | Link #24164 | ||||
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In the example you gave of you being the Game Master, your story would be a different one than Yasu's or Tôya's tales. You could of course include a Sumadera Kyrie, but to be able to say that the woman at Ushiromiya Rudolph's side is Sumadera Kasumi you would limit that to your own tale and it would only be the truth of your forgery and not THE truth. Like Beatrice was able to say things like Kanon definitely died in this room when possibly he did not die there in any other story than Turn of the Golden Witch. It would be your truth, but it wouldn't be THE truth. So if you were asked about it outside of the context of your own game it might be completely different. Like I could say Ushiromiya Eva only survived Banquet, End and Requiem of the Golden Witch when I am talking about the games, but of course she survived Rokkenjima and this still doesn't mean that Banquet is the truth. So I could say that "Sumadera Kyrie never arrived on Rokkenjima in 1986 during Beatrice's games, because she was already dead and her body wandered around". It's exactly the same scenario as with Kanon killing Nanjô and Kumasawa in EP2. Quote:
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He remembered meeting a woman who looked somehow like the witch in the portrait he remembered seeing in the memory of Ushiromiya Battler. He also remembered her asking him about an ominous sin he commited and that he did si against somebody on the island who he made a promise to when he last came to the island. His memory is probably so hazy that he doesn't remember anything so far back yet...so of course it leads to a simple and yet very complicated question: Am I even Ushiromiya Battler or am I only filling the blank space in my amnesiac mind with the story of somebody I read about on the internet? And if I really was there in 1986...am I really Battler? People in the message bottle stories (Turn of the Golden Witch) doubted Battler being the same Battler. Maybe I am a fraud. Who am I?! This is visualized through us in a battle between Battler (Tôya who wants to know what happened) and Beatrice (the full knowledge of Rokkenjima/Battler's full memory) in which he starts to doubt himself so much that he wants to quit the game altogether. And this of course implies that Battler actually learned of the fact that he wasn't Asumu's son...and it is basically of no real concern when he learned it. Rudolph could have told him exactly that as a reason to come back to his family. |
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2011-09-04, 18:24 | Link #24165 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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It's easy to watch the Rokkenjima incident when it doesn't touch you but it wouldn't be so funny when you discover people are writing fictions about how your family was killed and actually you've been doing that as well. Really, he has good reasons for trying to reject the Battler persona. I've considered it... but then I'd like to know if Ep 1 Rudolf's we've to talk about the family was in the original message bottle or it was pushed in the story by Battler... |
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2011-09-04, 18:25 | Link #24166 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Some questions that make my head hurt. I recently finished the EP 8.
In EP 8 when Battler and Beatrice are to escape the island, through dialogue is suggested that both are in love and are intimate. But that is 6 years Battler not visit Rokkenjima, then how do you explain this degree of passion between them? Passion enough to justify suicide. All this passion came in 2 days? That to me can only be explained if, after Ange made your choice, Battler and Beatrice in 1986 were with the knowledge of all the games and what happened in the battle for the Golden Land. Unless this scene can not be trusted, but I doubt it, because it is one of the final scenes. Another question. Why Battler and Beatrice are together in EP 8 when Battler put Beatrice to sleep in EP 7? Sorry, but my English is terrible. |
2011-09-04, 18:29 | Link #24167 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I think it's a metaphorical scene. Battler wouldn't have gone calmly on a boat and he didn't drow with Beatrice. It likely represents the fact that Beatrice's identity died with Rokkenjima and Battler's identity died with his amnesia. The two were closed in the catbox and are happily living together in the realm of fantasy. |
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2011-09-04, 18:55 | Link #24168 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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So Battler deluded himself into believing he was escaping with "Beatrice" probably as a way to remedy is own sin inside his mind. But of course "Beatrice" couldn't go to the world of humans with Battler, because she belonged to the world of illusions. So "Battler" decided to join her in the oblivion, leaving behind an empty shell that would later become Tohya. Quote:
Battler putting Beatrice to sleep could be some kind of metaphor for Tohya who after remembering the truth decided to seal it. But that probably happened many years after the Rokkenjima incident.
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2011-09-04, 19:25 | Link #24170 | |
Restless Ghost
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I don't know how far we can trust it, what with each source saying something different, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's likely that Rondo was more closely watched by Ryukishi than the manga. Just though I'd share the information anyway, since no one else seem to be palying Rondo. Also, I think it was you who had asked whether Maria's Sakutarou had that fluffy thing in the neck too. I checked, he has. It shows before maria puts the scarf on him. |
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2011-09-04, 19:29 | Link #24171 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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*nods* It was me. Okay, this shot down the idea the Sakutarou aren't related to Sakutaro. In order to know what's under the scarf one has to know Sakutaro... |
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2011-09-04, 20:09 | Link #24172 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-09-04, 20:24 | Link #24173 | |
Senior Member
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2011-09-04, 21:12 | Link #24174 | |
Restless Ghost
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Err, I don't know how to take a screen out of a tv, I could take a photo but it wouldn't look good... Maybe someone with a rip could find it and post it? The text was very, very blurred, but I could still recognize some of the characters. There's a chance someone a little better than me in japanese could even make out SOME of what's written there... Another unrelated observation I've made is that we are shown much sooner that the master keys are rings of keys. I think that was only clear by ep7 in the VN. I think the anime showed them as a single key each, too... (Also, Kinzo seems to keep his books and magic stuff locked - but I'm not really sure about this one...) |
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2011-09-04, 21:36 | Link #24175 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway from EP4: Quote:
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2011-09-04, 22:24 | Link #24176 | |
Restless Ghost
Join Date: Sep 2010
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But yeah, I agree that it's still safer to consider the original base text as the only truly reliable thing. It's just that some clues from outside might shed some light on things that are difficult to interpret, or weren't meant to be unclear. For example, If I'm not mistaken, that line about George being the only grandson of Kinzo was fixed. We can take that as a hint that there was nothing to speculate about there. That was probably quite obvious already, but in a story where you never know where to look for clues, this kind of thing helps. Ryukishi did make a statement about that, didn't he? Unless you think that's just his marketing strategy (Which is very plausible, actually.) |
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2011-09-05, 06:53 | Link #24178 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Sorry I think I should have given a bit more of context.
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That was said by Professor Ootsuki talking to Ange about the messages he has seen personally. The meaning of that is therefore: "I've seen the messages, it was a lot of writing, so I don't really think they were done in one day during the serial murder (as the story wants to make us believe by claiming it was written by Ushiromiya Maria)" anyway the original japanese word is: "膨大" which can be translated as "huge" "bulky" "enormous" etc.
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