AnimeSuki Forums

Shadow5YA · 2013-09-21, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by VDZ

Brawl was actually more balanced than Melee (with the exception of Meta Knight being way unbalanced, the rest is a lot closer than Melee's cast).

I disagree. Snake is also a cut above the rest, and characters like the Twilight Princess trio (Ganon, Zelda, Link) are clearly still the worst.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VDZ

Even the pro players themselves take a long time to discover the balance implications of certain moves and techniques, as can be seen from the way the Smash Backroom tier lists keep shifting: for example, Ice Climbers was ranked #13 on the SSBB tier list in September 2008. It remained solidly outside the top 10 until February 2010, when it was suddenly considered the #5 best character. It hovered around that spot for some time, until the April 2013 tier list placed Ice Climbers at #2. It took pro players almost 5 years to discover how good Ice Climbers really are. Similarly, Mr. Game & Watch started out at #4 but plummeted to #15 over the years, Olimar went from #18 to #3, and so on.

Every fighting game (and their tier lists) are a work in progress. That does not suddenly make Brawl more balanced. It's been five years now, and there is still no answer to MetaKnight, tripping, and other questionable mechanics like the drastically improved DI that lets you recover from magnifying glass/near blasting zone area to the center of a stage by simply holding forward to float back, assuming you aren't Link or Ganon.

serenade_beta · 2013-09-21, 19:44

I always hated "No Item! Final Destination!" "competitive" people, so I hope Sakurai continues to add luck elements like tripping.

Terrestrial Dream · 2013-09-21, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

I always hated "No Item! Final Destination!" "competitive" people, so I hope Sakurai continues to add luck elements like tripping.

Or at least the option to turn it off. Randomness isn't bad, I mean that is one thing that made the game fun, but there should always be an option.

serenade_beta · 2013-09-21, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

Or at least the option to turn it off. Randomness isn't bad, I mean that is one thing that made the game fun, but there should always be an option.

That is true. It doesn't hurt, after all. And hardly difficult to program, I assume.

Shadow5YA · 2013-09-21, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

I always hated "No Item! Final Destination!" "competitive" people, so I hope Sakurai continues to add luck elements like tripping.

I don't understand.

You get the option to choose how you want to play, so why would you want Sakurai to add luck based elements that limit that element of playstyle choice just to spite people you dislike?

serenade_beta · 2013-09-21, 20:19

I don't see how the playstyle choice is limited because of luck based elements

Shadow5YA · 2013-09-21, 20:23

You can toggle items and stages. You couldn't toggle tripping.

serenade_beta · 2013-09-21, 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

You can toggle items and stages. You couldn't toggle tripping.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=204

VDZ · 2013-09-22, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

That is true. It doesn't hurt, after all. And hardly difficult to program, I assume.

The issue with tripping was that it was a soft countermeasure against a technique from SSBM (dash dancing). Removing tripping entirely would allow dash dancing again; leaving tripping in would still make dash dancing possible but extremely risky. So the toggle would be impossible to implement from a design perspective.

GDB · 2013-09-22, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by VDZ

The issue with tripping was that it was a soft countermeasure against a technique from SSBM (dash dancing). Removing tripping entirely would allow dash dancing again; leaving tripping in would still make dash dancing possible but extremely risky. So the toggle would be impossible to implement from a design perspective.

Except it also happened when you weren't dash dancing, meaning it punished even those who didn't use the technique.

momobunny · 2013-09-22, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

I always hated "No Item! Final Destination!" "competitive" people, so I hope Sakurai continues to add luck elements like tripping.

... No.

I understand wanting to keep a game casual... but to implement a random luck based gameplay mechanic that you can't even turn off? No thank you. I'm so glad tripping is out of the game, it was a horrible idea from the start.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-22, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by VDZ

Even the pro players themselves take a long time to discover the balance implications of certain moves and techniques, as can be seen from the way the Smash Backroom tier lists keep shifting: for example, Ice Climbers was ranked #13 on the SSBB tier list in September 2008. It remained solidly outside the top 10 until February 2010, when it was suddenly considered the #5 best character. It hovered around that spot for some time, until the April 2013 tier list placed Ice Climbers at #2. It took pro players almost 5 years to discover how good Ice Climbers really are. Similarly, Mr. Game & Watch started out at #4 but plummeted to #15 over the years, Olimar went from #18 to #3, and so on.

If it takes pro players that long to figure out how good the characters really are, how can you expect the developers to properly balance the characters in much less time? Aside from Meta Knight and the super moves, they did a very good job balancing the game with the time they had.

This applies to many competitive fighting games. Nothing is concrete/definite at the start as players are just beginning to study the game's mechanics and learn/implement new technology. But the point is, the Smash series was never intended for competitive play. Maybe this game will be the first to change that.

SOGESNAKE · 2013-09-26, 09:21

. . . *sigh*

http://www.smashbros.com/us/characters/toon_link.html

Toon Link is back. Really... I expected if we got another Link again, it'd be A Link Between Worlds Link... not Toon Link. Though... I understand what with Wind Waker HD and all... just... not a fan of him.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-26, 11:33

^ This game will probably have two Links. There's a good chance the other one will be from Skyward Sword.

GDB · 2013-09-26, 12:10

At this point, it really doesn't feel like it's worth getting the game. Project M seems so much more appealing. At the current rate they're going, the only new character I'm really expecting at all is Chrom replacing Ike. Why are they bothering with completely remaking the game if they're not bringing anything new?

And yes, this is all brought on by Toon Link, who I had estimated to have the lowest chances of reappearing. With him back in, it feels like it's just "Brawl... on the WiiU!"

Maybe that's why it was originally just a 3DS project...

ChainLegacy · 2013-09-26, 14:59

I know it's Nintendo, but Olimar, Ice Climber, Animal Crossing villager, Wii Fit trainer... Can we have some more actual fighters/warriors/adventurers instead? Seems like every generation they include yet another silly character.

GDB · 2013-09-26, 16:02

You'll probably get Chrom... but at the expense of Ike. Maybe Wonderful Red?

SOGESNAKE · 2013-09-26, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

You'll probably get Chrom... but at the expense of Ike. Maybe Wonderful Red?

I'd rather have Viewtiful Joe than W. Red...

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2013-09-26, 18:37

Checked out the trailer again and the other Link is from Skyward sword. Wind Waker's HD release was probably a factor in Toon Link's return. But as for other "clone" characters, some of them probably won't be returning in this installment (i.e. Lucas and Wolf). Hopefully the roster will be more diversified with more "unique" characters.

Tokkan · 2013-09-26, 19:19

Inb4 next month's announcement being Sonic, to coincide with the release of Lost World...

2013-09-21, 19:44	Link #202
serenade_beta そのおっぱいで13才 Join Date: Dec 2006	I always hated "No Item! Final Destination!" "competitive" people, so I hope Sakurai continues to add luck elements like tripping. __________________ -Blog --> http://tdnshumi.blogspot.com/ (Mainly about video games) -R.I.P. Hiroshi Yamauchi, Gaming wouldn't have been the same without you (9/19/13)

2013-09-21, 20:19	Link #206
serenade_beta そのおっぱいで13才 Join Date: Dec 2006	I don't see how the playstyle choice is limited because of luck based elements __________________ -Blog --> http://tdnshumi.blogspot.com/ (Mainly about video games) -R.I.P. Hiroshi Yamauchi, Gaming wouldn't have been the same without you (9/19/13)

2013-09-26, 09:21	Link #213
SOGESNAKE NEW WORLD BABY~! Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Raftel Age: 32	. . . sigh http://www.smashbros.com/us/characters/toon_link.html Toon Link is back. Really... I expected if we got another Link again, it'd be A Link Between Worlds Link... not Toon Link. Though... I understand what with Wind Waker HD and all... just... not a fan of him. __________________

2013-09-26, 11:33	Link #214
Blackbeard D. Kuma Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007	^ This game will probably have two Links. There's a good chance the other one will be from Skyward Sword. __________________ Speed is weight. Have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?

2013-09-26, 18:37	Link #219
Blackbeard D. Kuma Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007	Checked out the trailer again and the other Link is from Skyward sword. Wind Waker's HD release was probably a factor in Toon Link's return. But as for other "clone" characters, some of them probably won't be returning in this installment (i.e. Lucas and Wolf). Hopefully the roster will be more diversified with more "unique" characters. __________________ Speed is weight. Have you ever been kicked at the speed of light?

2013-09-21, 20:23	Link #207
Shadow5YA Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	You can toggle items and stages. You couldn't toggle tripping.

2013-09-26, 12:10	Link #215
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	At this point, it really doesn't feel like it's worth getting the game. Project M seems so much more appealing. At the current rate they're going, the only new character I'm really expecting at all is Chrom replacing Ike. Why are they bothering with completely remaking the game if they're not bringing anything new? And yes, this is all brought on by Toon Link, who I had estimated to have the lowest chances of reappearing. With him back in, it feels like it's just "Brawl... on the WiiU!" Maybe that's why it was originally just a 3DS project...

2013-09-26, 14:59	Link #216
ChainLegacy 廉頗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Massachusetts Age: 34	I know it's Nintendo, but Olimar, Ice Climber, Animal Crossing villager, Wii Fit trainer... Can we have some more actual fighters/warriors/adventurers instead? Seems like every generation they include yet another silly character.

2013-09-26, 16:02	Link #217
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	You'll probably get Chrom... but at the expense of Ike. Maybe Wonderful Red?

2013-09-26, 19:19	Link #220
Tokkan Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Australia Age: 35	Inb4 next month's announcement being Sonic, to coincide with the release of Lost World...