Toradora! - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

Question is how to animate a *ton* of monologues? It'd more picture show than animation. Or something close to White Album's style for 'thoughts'.

KyoAni does it fairly well when they need to, for example.

Lots of backgrounds, walking, (or in this show, cleaning) maybe a bit of SHAFT-ish style to it when other stuff is going on.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

For people who wants more pictures : http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2009/03/18/toradora-24/

The comments on the blog are funny with people who were still thinking that a MinoriXRyuuji ending was possible

Oh this site is comedy gold in the comments section. And you've ninja'd me XD

Aye Kaisos, though they've been pushing the limits already trying to fit things in this series. I'm grateful to roan for the summaries of the noves.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

The comments on the blog are funny with people who were still thinking that a MinoriXRyuuji ending was possible

Pisses me off more than anything else.

What right do they have to complain about a show that isn't theirs to do anything with?

Originally Posted by SageGaiGar

Aye Kaisos, though they've been pushing the limits already trying to fit things in this series. I'm grateful to roan for the summaries of the noves.

If people need to have read the novels to understand the show, the show has failed utterly.

That's all I can say.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Pisses me off more than anything else.

What right do they have to complain about a show that isn't theirs to do anything with?



If people need to have read the novels to understand the show, the show has failed utterly.

That's all I can say.

Damnit now this is going into clannad territory of "You need to have read the source material"

I don't think it's entirely the case with Toradora. It helps to have a firmer grasp of the novels, but the show can be watched without them.

I can see where this might be a problem with being 'spoiled'. Or same thing with ignorence/innocence.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by aohige

There was nothing forced.

You know, this happens every episode week after week after week, where people start making random criticisms about episode they don't even understand
then goes and says "oh after watching subs I changed my mind".

Every.

Freaking.

Episode.

Seriously guys, be patient.

I second that...

and dont forget that this is a Light Novel who is ADAPTED to Anime and Manga.

[Tango337]

Maybe they are leaving the kiss for next episode where "that scene" happens? If they still don't show one...damn it all.

[Kikuchi]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Why do you think the novels were popular in the first place?

Irrelevant, as what is pictured in the anime is more than enough to make it a memorable series.

You NEED to stop comparing the novel and the anime. They're the same story told by different mediums. They don't have to be a 1:1 copy dammit.
I don't know, think LOTR for instance : a sucky adaptation, three epic movies which are sure to captivate people who didn't knew the original.
(Bad, bad, BAD comparison, since I think Toradora's adaptation is way better, I just couldn't find anything better)

I see you're constantly bringing up inner monologues and KyoAni, but do you seriously think all light novels adaptation should be done Haruhi style ? :|

And the kiss thing is silly, alright. But since I'm watching a japanese school romance anime, I'm kinda... not surprised.
If you REALLY want silly things, Clannad is ten times worse (and that's coming from someone who loved it).

[wistfulloner]

This is, in a way, the final episode. Nothing more needs to be said about Taiga and Ryuji's relationship, everything is pretty much set; EP25 will be more of an epilogue. And that is what made me feel a bit sad after the final scene.

The art style of this episode changed noticeably, and it reminds me of, how should I put it, film noir?

I'm a bit confused with the themes of this episode. I mean, is it really acceptable for two 17 year olds to be eloping? The preview tells otherwise, but is it really that socially accepted there that even their friends will encourage them to do it? Excuse me for not experiencing these things often, but it felt a bit "sudden".

What about their education, career, everything else? Sorry I sound like your grandmother, but its very much taboo to elope from where I'm at. And Taiga and Ryuji make it seem like such an easy decision.

Overall, an epic end to an epic series.

Originally Posted by Trogdor Jube

Didn't really get the parts with Yasuko.

Spoiler for Yasuko part:

Yasuko was disappointed with Ryuji for his disinterest in college, and he gets angry because he feels that she is imposing her dreams on him. Ryuji and Taiga run off, but not before Ryuji vented his anger. A saddened Yasuko then decides to run away from home.

If i'm not wrong, this is basically what happened.

EDIT: Can some tell me who is this Manji Midou guy and what is this clown doing in the cream?

[Raiga]

Wow... a lot of stuff happened, eh...

First few minutes... amazing. The OP caught me by surprise because by then I was so drawn in I'd completely forgotten they hadn't played it yet. XD

The plan to run away also kind of surprised me but I guess part of it is that high school is compulsory here. And impulsive teenagers and whatnot...

Still need to wait on subs for the subtleties of the dialog (no pun intended) but overall a great episode.

Also, mandatory random observation for this post... how is Ryuuji's cell phone still working after he fell into the river?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

Irrelevant, as what is pictured in the anime is more than enough to make it a memorable series.

It's just funny, seeing the anime and loving it, and then realizing that it could have been SO MUCH BETTER.

Imagine Toradora had it actually been adapted properly... how amazing would it be then?

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

I see you're constantly bringing up inner monologues and KyoAni, but do you seriously think all light novels adaptation should be done Haruhi style ? :|

Yes, in all honesty.

[relentlessflame]

There is nothing "non-understandable" about this show at all, honestly. You just need to be able to piece symbolism and metaphor together a little bit more adeptly. I don't know if it's because people have a hard time translating symbolism when it's presented in Japanese, or if people would have a hard time with it in English too. But Ryuuji's feelings are not exactly obscure -- you just need to connect the dots. I don't think we should need the pablum of "tell me exactly what you're feeling before you do anything so that I understand what's going on". Because, heck, as a teenager, does anyone ever see things that clearly? In the light novel, your entire "picture" of the characters is in words (well, and the occasional image). In the anime, there are plenty of other cues -- like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, symbolic imagery, musical cues, and so on. It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help ).

[typhonsentra]

To Raiga:

The water was shallow, and the pocket he pulled it from wasn't fully submerged.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help ).

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

Besides, even if you have visual cues and all that, they really did leave it a lot more ambiguous than the books, simply because we get to see into the thoughts of the characters.

The anime skipped this over almost COMPLETELY. No amount of visual cues will make up for this.

Originally Posted by Raiga

Also, mandatory random observation for this post... how is Ryuuji's cell phone still working after he fell into the river?

Japanese products are superior?

I dunno. Plot device, I guess.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There is nothing "non-understandable" about this show at all, honestly. You just need to be able to piece symbolism and metaphor together a little bit more adeptly. I don't know if it's because people have a hard time translating symbolism when it's presented in Japanese, or if people would have a hard time with it in English too. But Ryuuji's feelings are not exactly obscure -- you just need to connect the dots. I don't think we should need the pablum of "tell me exactly what you're feeling before you do anything so that I understand what's going on". Because, heck, as a teenager, does anyone ever see things that clearly? In the light novel, your entire "picture" of the characters is in words (well, and the occasional image). In the anime, there are plenty of other cues -- like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, symbolic imagery, musical cues, and so on. It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help ).

I say all of us who can't understand Japanese should wait until the subs come out Thurs/Fri.

Thanks, seems like critical thinking isn't something taught much lately.

For wistfulloner

Spoiler for 'Running away Taiga/Ryuuji:

They are currently not thinking. That's what is really up with the elopement. Their friends seemed a little at first. Seemed more like they wanted to give them a place where they could decompress. Hopefully Ryuuji's grandparents can talk a bit of sense into them.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I'm a bit confused with the themes of this episode. I mean, is it really acceptable for two 17 year olds to be eloping? The preview tells otherwise, but is it really that socially accepted there that even their friends will encourage them to do it? Excuse me for not experiencing these things often, but it felt a bit "sudden".

What about their education, career, everything else? Sorry I sound like your grandmother, but its very much taboo to elope from where I'm at. And Taiga and Ryuji make it seem like such an easy decision.

The answer to your question is, no, obviously no, it's not acceptable.
As a matter of fact, the subject is brought up in the show by the characters themselves on how rediculous the idea is.
I thought that was pretty obvious from the lines.

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Spoiler for Yasuko part:

Yasuko was disappointed with Ryuji for his disinterest in college, and he gets angry because he feels that she is imposing her dreams on him. Ryuji and Taiga run off, but not before Ryuji vented his anger. A saddened Yasuko then decides to run away from home.

If i'm not wrong, this is basically what happened.

Well, that was what the argument lead to, but that's not why Yasuko was yelling at him at first.
She was upset that Ryuuji lied to her about the part-time job. He took over the job at the cake store without telling her. She told him not to take up part time jobs, and she felt betrayed.

EDIT: Can some tell me who is this Manji Midou guy and what is this clown doing in the cream?

He's pissed because Ryuuji x Ami didn't happen, and decided to retaliate in a rather immature manner.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

Define "everyone everywhere".
Do you mean "everywhere" as in English forums and blogs that may or may not have full understanding of Japanese?

That's not "everyone everywhere".

I've been surfing Japanese blogs on reviews, and only handful of them are overly critical about this episode.
Do you not think, that these blogs have a lot more credibility than English ones since, oh, I dunno, they fully understand what's going on?
(I avoid 2ch anime threads, because they are usually over critical about EVERYTHING, because of few "anti" haters who spam every thread)

[danin8r44]

Personally, I didn't like this episode. It felt like they were trying to cram way too much into a single episode. The plot became so rushed that it almost became incoherent. You have such dramatic changes in mood, thoughts, and actions of the characters in such a short time while every other episode pulled out the feelings slowly and carefully. I dunno this episode just felt way to rushed like they wanted to have a dramatic ending but hadn't properly set themselves up for it.......

EDIT: I know people are going to say this isn't the ending, but it is the first part of the end and I feel it should have been more spread out.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

I dunno. Plot device, I guess.

The anime had more than enough setup for the events that happened this episode....the novels only did it EVEN better imo

Everything that happened this episode makes perfect sense, even if you haven't read the novels. The story has been leading up to this episode. You could say that reading the novels gives you more explanation for the actions of Ryuuji and the others than the anime does, but reading the novels isn't vital to understand these actions.

I guess this is what I've been trying to say

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

Because they're the worst of all at reacting and not reflecting. The reason why I usually avoid episode threads (and get annoyed at bloggers and blog commenters in episode posts) is because it gives people tunnel vision. They become unable to connect the dots beyond the scope of the episode itself, and don't think of events in the way they were intended -- as waypoints along a giant connected map that we call "the story". They get so fixated on these minute, useless details that they miss the actual purpose, moral, message, and theme of the story. It encourages people to just "speak their mind" without thinking it through. And there are enough others out there that just say whatever's on the top of their head that it gets others thinking that their gut reaction was reasonable. People would rather loudly exclaim that they're right than carefully think through why they might, in fact, be wrong.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Besides, even if you have visual cues and all that, they really did leave it a lot more ambiguous than the books, simply because we get to see into the thoughts of the characters.

The anime skipped this over almost COMPLETELY. No amount of visual cues will make up for this.

As someone who has never read the novels, I fail to see what's so ambiguous about this show. If the show's purpose, moral, and message aren't clear to you, then go right now and re-watch episodes 1 & 2. Those two episodes, in the context of everything we've seen so far, are everything we need to understand about the story and the ending. It's perfectly symmetrical and well-connected. Since I haven't read the novels, I can't say what is or isn't in there that may or may not be interesting, helpful, or useful. But I can say that the anime adaptation is providing everything I need to get a full understanding of all of the issues facing the central characters. And that, to me, is what I want.

I've seen anime adaptations when I've read the source material beforehand, and know about cases where the adaptation can skimp on helpful details. However, even in those cases, the answer is the same: the anime contains everything you need to understand what's going on. If you get too fixated on the other details, you're probably missing the real point.

[Tyabann]

Hey, I get it, and I never said I didn't like the show.

Actually, I love it.

I just think it could have been done a lot better, is all.

[Vexx]

1) I think relentlessflame is being far too gracious to the "no setup" crowd Really, they can't be troutslapped hard enough for simply failing to pay attention and frankly, I think there's a lot of subversive "shipping" still trolling around from those who never understood this was never a "harem choose the girl" adventure.
(yes, I think an equally interesting story could have been told with Ami but that is left to "alternative history doujinshi")

2) yes, its quite instructive that the general reaction amongst Japanese viewers seems to be quite positive -- probably because they tend to pay closer attention and get the nuance and cultural undertones that foreigner "Joe Duh" Blog Commenter utterly fails at.

3) My assessment of the anime is that it has stood on its own quite successfully. Do I think the novels tell a deeper more content-rich story? well, duh. But this is an anime adaptation. Some things the visual medium does better than the novels and in other aspects it is handicapped compared to the novels. So it goes....