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Old 2020-11-14, 00:17   Link #10541
charasu
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MC usually using weapon with rule of cool, so instead real useful weapon, they go to the most coolest looking wepon. maybe :v
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Old 2020-11-14, 05:48   Link #10542
wuhugm
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Sword-type in fiction can cut mountain anyway, why need axe lol


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Old 2020-11-15, 15:46   Link #10543
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by DBAV View Post
I've seen a few novels dissing katanas but they are rare, it's basically a chuuni thing since cool weapons liked by the fans are better within the novel and weapons not so appreciated like hammers,axes and spears are used by party members or other secondary characters with their proper pros and cons.
Katana is actually kinda a bit of a special case, they are kinda OP in the era when they begin to emerge. You have to noted that Japan don't have high quality steel way until the trade overseas appear, So Katana method of forging as in rolled steel and repeat tend to give out much higher quality steel compare to most item made of steel in that era (Not to mentioned that steel for Katana was pretty cherry picking to begin with), if not everything in Japan at the same time. This is where Katana reputation of cutting through steel and armor come from as in they are of much better steel and durability compare to even armor. The problem is that this is only consider within Japan. There is a reason why warlord in Japan actually prefer western armor more than their own from trade with Nanban.(Most normal soldier either don't have armor or armor isn't even made of metal berfore this period)

Frankly, by the sengoku era, all officers armor are already have a lot of western influences. By this point, Katana is still a good sword, but obviously not as divine as before and no way they can actually afford full cut through armor feat like back in the pre trade steel era. Even before that, Spear and bow already exceed Katana in deadliness and ease of use. Bow skill is particularly important to the point that it is the most important skill for samurai. Katana is more like a side arm that gain it fame from a short period of effectiveness and live out that fame for very long. There is also the existence of Kensei, which actually improved katana fame for a long time.
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Old 2020-11-15, 21:25   Link #10544
DBAV
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^Katanas were mostly peasant-cutting/dueling weapons/artistic decorations (opponents not wearing armor) and not that used in war as anime want us to believe.Japanese armor was mostly composed of lacquered wood with some metal plates here and there so katanas could actually cut "metal", the great things about katanas was their forging method, blacksmiths really worked hard developing a way to use low quality metal.
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Old 2020-11-15, 21:47   Link #10545
bakato
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Until Death Do Us Part taught me that katanas are by nature defensive weapons shrunken down from standard naginatas wielded by foot soldiers.
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Old 2020-11-15, 22:25   Link #10546
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^That one has monomolecular filament
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Old 2020-11-16, 01:09   Link #10547
Garn
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The forging technique was because it was made from a material with many impurities (magnetite?) and bending it was among several things, to improve the final product that became similar to that of other countries, exactly, Japan did not have a legendary advanced metallurgy but made up for its lack with the technique that only made it similar with others of the same era

A katana cannot cut a metal armor, in reality no sword can (even less a shield), another con against is that a katana is as heavy as a western double-handed sword but with the reach of a single-handed sword

Not to mention the nonsense of attributing something divine to the curvature of the blade, then scimitars and the like, what would it be? Apart from the fact that there are swords similar to a katana even before its creation in the Middle East and Europe, "similar "
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Old 2020-11-16, 05:01   Link #10548
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBAV View Post
^Katanas were mostly peasant-cutting/dueling weapons/artistic decorations (opponents not wearing armor) and not that used in war as anime want us to believe.Japanese armor was mostly composed of lacquered wood with some metal plates here and there so katanas could actually cut "metal", the great things about katanas was their forging method, blacksmiths really worked hard developing a way to use low quality metal.
Katana was legitimate sidearm in war and self-defense tool in time of peace. Kiri-sute gomen could be only done is self-defense and cutting civilians with no valid reason would even count as rebelion against shogun with obvious consequences. You wouldn't just cut peasant test a sword.

Only time japanese armor was made of wood is Kofun period ie around 4th century AD. Which was before samurai era. Regular Samurai armor was made of combination of leather and metal and was plenty protective.

While forging method for japanese swords is indeed great. There would be no point if final weapon wouldn't show it's worth. Geometry and construction is whar makes Japanese blades that good. Curved blades, while not necessary shaper, are inherently better cutters then straight blades and Japanese are peak of curved blades. They are also very maneuverable compared to straight blades. (they in exchange are worse for thrusts and defense).

Seriously, do some homeworks before trying to look smart or it backfire on you.
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Old 2020-11-16, 05:06   Link #10549
dragon1412
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Yeah, big issues is that Japan, in the era where Katana was first appear, metal is very scarce in amounts and pretty bad quality to boot, so Katana which have a kinda decent steel made is quite powerful in a very short period of time as most soldier have wooden or bamboo armor, and even officers armor tend to be of poor quality steel. So the claim that Katana can break armor is actually real, though it really poor quality iron armor with load of impurities and the majority is actually wooden or bamboo armor. In fact Katana shape as actually made in that specific way so it is possible for them to cut into armor. The curved edge is actually similar to how an axe work in cutting mechanism

Full metal armor is actually very durable, even spear without enough force will only make a dent at most and even if it do pierce you likely have to give up on the spear since pulling it out of an armored opponent is serious hard work, War hammer and mace taken the field because the force transfer is more effective against armor than any edge weapon could. And let's not mentioned a shield. Which as long as you managed to catch the strike, shield is even harder to go through than armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Until Death Do Us Part taught me that katanas are by nature defensive weapons shrunken down from standard naginatas wielded by foot soldiers.
To be fair, the rule for war weapons is essentially longer is better as long as it isn't unwieldy, Since it keep the soldier safer for longer period, Sword, katana or not, tend to be side arm rather than main arm, for power you have mace, hammer, for length you have spear, glaive, for distance, you have bow, cross bow. In reality sword in general only take the field when main weapon is either break or lost.
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Old 2020-11-16, 05:24   Link #10550
Tenzen12
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Let's be honest if you are against armored opponent, you don't use sword if you can help it. It doesn't matter what kind.
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Old 2020-11-16, 08:31   Link #10551
erneiz_hyde
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The curvature of Katanas are actually so minute it's not enough to give them an advantage. You want curvature, you go to things like Cavalry Saber, Talwar, and the like.
The heavy weight of the katana actually makes them easier to cut with as it helps in edge alignment. A complete beginner with a katana can still make a pretty decent cut compared to a complete beginner with a European cruciform sword.
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Old 2020-11-16, 16:09   Link #10552
Garn
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Almost all swords can be used against armored opponents as they are not just a blade, they have parts to wield as a blunt object (obviously not a katana)
An ax and a shovel share the same shape for simplest reasons, to handle it better when extracted and to make better use of its area
The curvature of a katana does not help at all because what impacts is a small area and this is not an anime where the user will slide and jump
An armor isn't weak, no matter the weapon, it will not be cut so easily and will only be pierced like any other if something sharp is used that carries a lot of force
For that reason, everything that penetrates has a sharp point and an edge cannot penetrate because it covers more area, can't cut
Compare a katana that is basically a knife with a generally double-handed weapon with a larger area of use... right

Curved swords created with better metallurgy
-Falcalta (?)
-Yatagan
-Dao
-Scimitar

I better stop, I already look like a hater, so much nonsense is killing me
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Old 2020-11-16, 16:39   Link #10553
Tenzen12
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I don't know enough about Europian medieval metalurgy to make informed comparison, but Chinese were never really good with high carbon steel. Dao/Jians are objectively worse then katanas, so you should correct your list at least on that point.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2020-11-16 at 16:54.
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Old 2020-11-16, 16:57   Link #10554
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
To be fair, the rule for war weapons is essentially longer is better as long as it isn't unwieldy, Since it keep the soldier safer for longer period, Sword, katana or not, tend to be side arm rather than main arm, for power you have mace, hammer, for length you have spear, glaive, for distance, you have bow, cross bow. In reality sword in general only take the field when main weapon is either break or lost.
Superior range is always a priority in war. It's also important to keep in mind that the average foot soldier wouldn't be that skilled with a katana anyways. Before, firearms became mainstream, naginatas and spears were the go to weapon for the average, untrained pheasant foot soldier. What's so hard about thrust and stab?
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Old 2020-11-16, 21:02   Link #10555
Rasty
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I find the lack of ability in the stabbing to be fatal flaw of katana unless you want to use it against unarmored (and preferably unarmed) oponent. Stabbing is the most deadly attack especially as it is actually able to penetrate some light armor (small cuts don't matter anyway). My main problem with deification of the creation is, that as already many-times mentioned, all of the complex way it was made is only to make up for the trash metalurgy. It's like wringling a towel. You might have the best wringling technique, but if the towel was never wet it won't get any drier.. it might get wrinkled though. I seriously doubt any fantasy world (with fire and wind magic) would have problems with too low temperature to properly mix/separate the iron.

As for effectivity of swords as weapons, I think it says a lot that the mighty japanese warriors themselves were actually originally horse-archers later switching to spears and lances. Notably, in no period I know of they used swords as their main weapon. And while we can speculate about it's usefulness against large opponents that can shrug-off some small hole, something bigger than katana would be much better for that.
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Old 2020-11-16, 21:13   Link #10556
Tenzen12
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Stabing is preferable to cutting pretty much only when you face armored opponents and need aim for gaps, but if that's the case it's better forget about sword altogether just go for hammer, because enemies wouldn't just wait for you to do your thing.
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Old 2020-11-17, 05:01   Link #10557
Rasty
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^ It has much higher penetrative power. You can stab straight through leather (with decreased force), but even a good coat, not speaking about armor, can decently protect from slashing attack.
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Old 2020-11-17, 05:19   Link #10558
Tenzen12
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Cutting can get through leather too, it does more damage and it's easier to retract or chain with other attacks. With thrust you either do basically no damage or you open yourself to counter. It's also much easier do defend against.

Obviously having more options is better then having less and good thrust can determine duel, but thinking stabbing is meta is fastest way to first get your hand cut off and killed afterward.
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Old 2020-11-17, 10:15   Link #10559
dragon1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasty View Post
I find the lack of ability in the stabbing to be fatal flaw of katana unless you want to use it against unarmored (and preferably unarmed) oponent. Stabbing is the most deadly attack especially as it is actually able to penetrate some light armor (small cuts don't matter anyway). My main problem with deification of the creation is, that as already many-times mentioned, all of the complex way it was made is only to make up for the trash metalurgy. It's like wringling a towel. You might have the best wringling technique, but if the towel was never wet it won't get any drier.. it might get wrinkled though. I seriously doubt any fantasy world (with fire and wind magic) would have problems with too low temperature to properly mix/separate the iron.

As for effectivity of swords as weapons, I think it says a lot that the mighty japanese warriors themselves were actually originally horse-archers later switching to spears and lances. Notably, in no period I know of they used swords as their main weapon. And while we can speculate about it's usefulness against large opponents that can shrug-off some small hole, something bigger than katana would be much better for that.
Katana can stab, as in there is actually stabbing technique for that, in fact, Shinsengumi in later period who train in newly developed Tennen rishin ryu is actually pretty focus themselves on stabbing technique. But like you said, katana is mostly the decent man out of the trashy resource at it's era.

If you are frequent some historical battle forum, you will see that, most agree that sword, not just Katana rarely seen the field in general and more as a side arm. Spear is definitely the most common among melee weapon, and it's deadliness goes over the top when the user is actually mounted on horse back. And that's not mentioned the sheer danger of mace and war hammer. A mace strike could easily damage beyond the armor, and war hammer, in right situation, could actually go through a shield, a feat that most weapons isn't capable of.

EDIT: it actually more complicated in case of western sword, since some of them do actually see some effect in war, but there is a lot of varieties and most historical document that record their effectiveness are mostly longsword that are 2 handed and generally actually long enough to stab them without getting too close. It still mostly a side arm though. Sword just aren't that good against armor, you need very specific technique and strategy to use sword against armor

Last edited by dragon1412; 2020-11-17 at 10:40.
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Old 2020-11-17, 20:32   Link #10560
Garn
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Sometimes I think, it would be something logical that in a world with beings like goblins, orcs and the like (jap ver.)
Women would be prohibited from pursuing professions that bring them closer to these (adventurer)
Or at least until they have more experience in zones without these
It's stupid to think that a country would let its own female population become a "resource" for external threats.

Although it's also stupid that a country does not make use of its army by sending it to clean up certain areas with a large number periodically
Instead of being a few dozen and never demonstrate the might of the army in front of its own population to raise patriotism and morale
They are usually the bad guys or do nothing until the MC on duty is involved
And no, the use of adventurers is not a solution, in many novels even they are prohibited from hunting excessively

Although that is more of a problem in almost every fantasy novel regardless of what country it comes from.
Where a world with a medieval culture suddenly has magic and supernatural things
Rather than not one that started with all threats from the start
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