The Total Series Rating of Haruhi Suzumiya

[arias]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Yes, it was a farce but not in the way I think you thought. And... it may be that objectively, those people are really that dim. Much of the human race is really not very bright or at least lazy about thinking.

This is tricky, because on one hand I am a subjectivist and do think that any piece of substance in art can robustly accomodate multiple viewpoints. On the other hand, I have a deep, searing, explosive hatred/dislike/annoyance-susceptibility to those who express really stupid ideas. So the two conflicting imperatives do cause some dissonance in me sometimes.. but I don't think it's a paradox or a contradiction (as the Japanese like to simplify it to). I do think the subjective world is right, and my anger at fucktards are a manifestation of my ego, my arrogance, my not stopping to think deeper.

In fact, I'm really fine with people thinking SuzuHaru is shit. I'm just not fine with people continually coming in here just to say SuzuHaru is shit and then continually plug some other series.. Annoying.



With regards to the posts about the economic reality of anime like SuzuHaru.. I seriously think that it is far too cynical to think that the #1, or the sole essence of anime is to generate profit. Sure, if they don't make money they will be cancelled, and people will lose their jobs. Money is crucial to sustain any sort of production or viewing of anime.

But just because breathing and eating are similarly crucial for us humans to conduct any sort of meaningful activity, doesn't mean that life is all about breathing and eating.

I think that what you guys consider the so-called periphery factors like artisticness, meaningfulness, enjoyability.. etc. are all integral parts of the anime industry as a whole. Sure, I'll grant you that in Japan, the companies seriously milk Otakus dry.. it's shameless, and almost sad. As a result, females always feature on the covers of merchandise like DVDs, manga tankubons, posters etc, while the main male character is supposedly the most important character of their various animations. Just look at Tsuyokiss, Tsukihime, AIR, SuzuHaru, and so forth. If you were extremely cynical, you'd think that the male character was but a foil to allow the expansion, development and action of the female characters...

Regardless, I think despite this commercialistic drive in anime, there is real heart, and real art within it. Especially from the works of Hayao Miyazaki of Ghibli.. or that of Mamoru Oshii's works. No one would deny the importance of the plot to AIR, or that it meant very much to many of its viewers. There is also always the underground world of doujin that holds some very precious gems, like that of Yoshitoshi ABe.. In all, I think even the creators of anime, manga or novels, while watchful and noting of the need to attract a sustainable fanbase, want to insert some meaningful piece of themselves into their works.. and out into the world.

[Vexx]

@arias: Well written.... I'd only qualify my previous remarks in that I'd add that not all opinions are equal. A brick can have an opinion - it takes more work to have an opinion based on study and analysis of the subject and the realization that there may be more than one answer.
I can *call* a well-recognized piece of art "garbage", but then it is going to color my credibility for anything else I might say if I don't substantiate it pretty thoroughly. I'm better off just saying "it wasn't for me".
Example: I really don't care for many 20th C. authors literary people drool over (Faulkner, Hemingway, Williams, etc). I've read their stuff.. its well crafted, I just don't care for the content. I am not going to walk into a book club discussion with the introductory remark that "Faulkner sucks" because no one will listen to anything I say after that... with good reason.

The content of Haruhi contains scientific and philosophical ideas I'm interested in, witty dialog, some outstanding directing techniques that recall some of Hitchcock and Orson Welles camera work, and the KyoAni animation quality. So I'm probably not going want to spend a lot of time dealing with someone who disregards or misses all of those things.

[npal]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I'm also confused by the broad sweeping generalizations ("If you don't like show X, then you're Y" or "If you like show A, then you're B", where Y and B are negative) that happen far too often on these forums.

I'm confused by a lot of things.

Actually I have this thing which I'll call "Shuffle trial", which is remarkably accurate about which people are worth talking to and which people should be shot on sight Amazingly enough, it's rarely wrong (based on other people's assumptions as well). So yes, there are crucial things to be learned from a person's preference in anime and characters.

The same might apply for MoSH, although I haven't got sufficient feedback to measure its accuracy yet. Sweeping generalizations shouldn't be looked down so much

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by arias

Regardless, I think despite this commercialistic drive in anime, there is real heart, and real art within it. Especially from the works of Hayao Miyazaki of Ghibli.. or that of Mamoru Oshii's works. No one would deny the importance of the plot to AIR, or that it meant very much to many of its viewers. There is also always the underground world of doujin that holds some very precious gems, like that of Yoshitoshi ABe.. In all, I think even the creators of anime, manga or novels, while watchful and noting of the need to attract a sustainable fanbase, want to insert some meaningful piece of themselves into their works.. and out into the world.

I agree. I'd like to add that I see nothing "wrong" in making anime to make money. I think that it's perfectly acceptable to want to make a profit, and tell a good story. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive.

[Shredder]

Originally Posted by C.A.

If you ever fast forward an episode of Haruhi it means you've understood less than half of the show itself.

I was just pissed off at this tactless and condescending comment and went off on a tangent. Apparently Haruhi's doing well economically. I know the anime industry is robust in Japan. I wonder how well this series will age though. Fads do come and go, and it can be hard to tell what is one and what's not.

I said the series overall was all right, but a few eps I thought were poor. With some of the fanaticism I see around here, I suspect some people would defend an ep of watching paint dry. After all, some people would try to justify that as a legitimate expression of art. It's bogus for ppl like me. What I meant about bringing economics into it is...Haruhi could get away with eps like ep1 and the heater ep because the rest of the series could make up for it. No matter how ppl try to justify things like those eps artistically, a lot of ppl find them boring or confusing, and if that keeps up in a series then where will be trouble.

Anyway voicing reasoned dissent shouldn't be grounds for shooing someone out of a discussion. It's not explicitly a fan club.

[clearacell]

Originally Posted by Shredder

Nothing to understand. It's a cartoon, not quantum physics. Discussion doesn't necessarily reveal anything that may not actually be there. Fast forward is legitimate if a series can't manage to prevent it--for example showing people reading books and playing board games. There's voyeurism and reality TV for that. School Rumble's as good but more fun by a lot. 10 on that, but not for this.

Ep 1 was a farce. If ppl hear explanation and analysis time after time and are still unconvinced, maybe it really is objectively no good. Of course, fanaticism doesn't lend itself to objectivity.

When you take things at face value it makes one wonder if you got Fs in English every year.

I would have given it a 9something but since that isn't an option I simply gave it a 10. It's an incredibly satisfying series filled with memorable moments. It did so many things right that it would be downright depressing if it didn't get a second season.

[Shredder]

See...once again the highfalutin condescension comes out. I'm an excellent student in every subject and ace every standardized test, including writing and verbal portions. But I still don't enjoy watching other people read books or fetch heaters on uneventful errands (and a lot of smart ppl don't, anonymous rep stainer--esp those whose time is valuable, mind you).

On another note, I wish the romance had been brought out a little more. I could've used a Haruhi blush, just one might've been fine. Or maybe there was one and I missed it, perhaps FF does have its disadvantages. I guess that ponytail at the end had a similar effect...but nothing beats the blush. I just never saw much of a soft side to her character, she seemed pretty bitchy and hardened throughout, unlike most series.

Haha, I got a negative rep for this? For what, slighting somebody's holy Haruhi? How immature and improper, bring it on. Or apparently it's not so anonymous and more retaliatory, dork

[Vexx]

You're probably never going to like a lot of foreign film then or films made a few decades ago. They're full of long moments where "nothing happens".
However, I do agree it would have been nice to see a bit of blush at the appropriate point. A lot of her progress was very subtle.. .like suddenly being bothered at the idea of changing clothes in front of Kyon (when she could have cared less at first) or the way she started grabbing his hand rather than his tie. And the way she brightened up when he'd sound interested in her ideas.
However, apparently KyoAni decided to stick really close to the atmosphere and subtlety of the novels even when it required the viewer to pay very close attention to little details. A fair number of people missed the evolution of Yuki's character and thought she was a static cardboard figure.

The "heater ep" is a subtle episode showing just how far the relationship of the characters has come. Superficially its a "day in the life" but the way the characters interact (especially at the end of the ep with Kyon and Haruhi) says a lot about how close they've become.


(in case anyone is wondering why I'm up at 0340... its still 95F in a region where air conditioning is unusual and its normally 50F at this hour... whee for northern hemisphere-wide heat wave)

[Shredder]

Yeah, I guess I'm very American in that something always has to be happening. I hear foreigners are not that way. I know my folks in India aren't, however that's not a 1st world place like Japan so the comparison is so so. I don't know if it would cut it in American TV or cinema (modern, anyway), extended scenes of nothingness.

The progress was super subtle. One blush could've sealed the deal. Couldn't they at least give that much! I thought the last scene (ponytail) before the little epilogue would've been the ideal time. Even if Kyon didn't see it, like when she was turned away. Yeah, right then. It would've been totally natural too after hearing something like that. Then a lil ecchi of course.

Yuki clearly changed. She kinda sucked at first and was boring. I didn't realize she'd play such a big role. She pretty much saved the day at every moment of trouble. Typing and guitar scenes were good stuff.

[C.A.]

One thing about romance, is that Asians aren't as open to relationships or romance as Westerners do.

And, Shredder if you think my post is tactless, I think I may agree with you, but condescending, no. I've become rather harsh these days because of other even more baseless criticism for the show. This show is criticised by people who simply don't understand the show at all.

But if you do not acknowledge how deep this story is, you won't see how brilliantly written it is.

I've always had an argument that this show doesn't work well with most Western audience. Its not that the show has lots of meaningless scenes, its that the show is presented in such a way that most Western audience aren't familiar with.

[SnakeLegend]

Its simply that, Haruhi became the Symbol of us since she started out in this series, i give 10 generously since its been a very long time i had last seen a good anime that represents my ex-life ever since. It resembles so much that its scary...

[Shredder]

Originally Posted by C.A.

I've become rather harsh these days because of other even more baseless criticism for the show. This show is criticised by people who simply don't understand the show at all.

This can be used to counter any criticism of anything. "Oh, but you don't understand it." Pointless for me to say yes, I do--at least sufficiently to point out some imperfections--so I won't bother. You can be harsh, but no need to make silly excuses about it. And it is condescending.

Part of what detracts from Haruhi is some of its fans. I've seen concurrence on this point elsewhere. I don't see this kind of zealous devotion to series like School Rumble, and it makes it easier to simply enjoy them. I'm pushed to find faults in this series just to avoid becoming a zealot. For all of this series' supposed merits, it hasn't found the same appreciation as Spirited Away or some other Ghibli flicks and other series. In fact, if Haruhi were uglier, not only would the popularity drop off but also no characters in the show would accept her, seeing as she has few other redeeming traits.

Originally Posted by C.A.

I've always had an argument that this show doesn't work well with most Western audience. Its not that the show has lots of meaningless scenes, its that the show is presented in such a way that most Western audience aren't familiar with.

Let's not forget that Western audiences/markets (read: American by and large) are what dictate the global success or failure of any production. And that the West, USA especially with her action-packed TV and cinema that sweep world markets off their feet, is currently on top of the world. So there is a thing or two to be said against condescension and highfalutin attitudes

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Shredder

Part of what detracts from Haruhi is some of its fans. I've seen concurrence on this point elsewhere. I don't see this kind of zealous devotion to series like School Rumble, and it makes it easier to simply enjoy them. I'm pushed to find faults in this series just to avoid becoming a zealot. For all of this series' supposed merits, it hasn't found the same appreciation as Spirited Away or some other Ghibli flicks and other series. In fact, if Haruhi were uglier, not only would the popularity drop off but also no characters in the show would accept her, seeing as she has few other redeeming traits.

So you're letting other people's viewpoints affect yours negatively. Nothing wrong with pointing out its imperfection, this show isnt perfect after all. Nothing wrong with feeling a little put-off by its fan's zealousness.

But actively finding fault in a show just to prove them wrong is a little sad isnt it? Is it their (the fan's) fault? Not any more, because you can choose whether or not to view that way. Like you said, that doesnt allow you to enjoy the show. So why do it? Why spoil this experience for yourself?

Originally Posted by Shredder

Let's not forget that Western audiences/markets (read: American by and large) are what dictate the global success or failure of any production. And that the West, USA especially with her action-packed TV and cinema that sweep world markets off their feet, is currently on top of the world.

I think many here would disagree with that. In anycase, for SHnY, does global success really matter? I never thought of it as being intended for a worldwide super release or something.

Woooooo~ off topic.

I gave this series an 8. I enjoyed it very much while it lasted, but probably because it wasnt the type that really leaves a lasting impression on me, I cant say that it will stay with me forever (i.e. make me cry whenever I hear a song from it, make me cringe when I see its title; that, automatic 10 ). I think, that while the characters were superb, I wanted more emo. Thats just me, don't worry.

[Vexx]

Also ... calling Haruhi herself "ugly" because "she has few redeeming traits" .... just keep in mind thats an opinion of her personality not everyone shares.

I find strong women very attractive whereas I find the docile types less so. Haruhi was a very compelling personality for me.
Her strength is complicated by her agonizing over the idea that she may not having meaning or worth because she's only 1 of a multiple billion people. She spends most of the series in an almost panic over that idea which she responds to with her assertive actions.

Japan produces anime for Japan... period. Meaning they aren't designing them for the cultural values or tastes of the rest of the world. If one happens to crossover and become popular (as this one did), its just bonus because they'll be more likely to license it to an American distributor. Many anime viewers (particularly the ones who don't just watch simple action anime) are looking for the expression of japanese culture and the novelty of that compared to their own culture. American TV simply doesn't offer much of this kind of story anymore (american tv tends to operate in a "herd" mode.... right now we're being buried in cop'n'law shows all almost identical with only a few of them actually developing their characters).

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Lost

So you're letting other people's viewpoints affect yours negatively.

I think this is a criticism that can apply to us all.

Originally Posted by Shredder

I'm pushed to find faults in this series just to avoid becoming a zealot.

Originally Posted by C.A.

I've become rather harsh these days because of other even more baseless criticism for the show.

Which is why I've been trying to say from the beginning: Discuss the show based on the show, not on the fandom.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Shredder

Let's not forget that Western audiences/markets (read: American by and large) are what dictate the global success or failure of any production. And that the West, USA especially with her action-packed TV and cinema that sweep world markets off their feet, is currently on top of the world. So there is a thing or two to be said against condescension and highfalutin attitudes

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the popularity or success of a show. That's not a qualifier for enjoyment. I gravitate toward anime because I'm tired of everything that the television tries to shove down my throat. It all tastes the same, and none of it's filling (except Lost). So, if that's the case, why would I want anime that reminds me of Western creations?
Success does not define quality. I'd love this show just as much if no one else in the world liked it. Your point is completely moot.

[arias]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Japan produces anime for Japan... period. Meaning they aren't designing them for the cultural values or tastes of the rest of the world. If one happens to crossover and become popular (as this one did), its just bonus because they'll be more likely to license it to an American distributor. Many anime viewers (particularly the ones who don't just watch simple action anime) are looking for the expression of japanese culture and the novelty of that compared to their own culture. American TV simply doesn't offer much of this kind of story anymore (american tv tends to operate in a "herd" mode.... right now we're being buried in cop'n'law shows all almost identical with only a few of them actually developing their characters).

Actually, I think things are changing in this aspect; albeit only slightly. Now we have pre-licensed anime which have American distributors owning the rights even before the first episode is aired in Japan. I think it's also the case that some anime are even receiving some funding from american distributors (e.g. ADV) for their production! I don't remember where I read this piece of news, but animenewsnetwork.com seems likely. Regardless, I do think there are some anime which are "designed" for a cross-cultural audience...


Regarding the criticism of Haruhi, I think Shredder is seriously alike Kaioshin in this case. Some anti-"mainstreamist" streak? Even though I've already posted stats showing that SuzuHaru is by no means mainstream... it has had a steady decline in its BT downloads ever since the first episode (120,000 to 35,000).

[C.A.]

No, actually Kaioshin is pretty decent, he critises the anime, because it isn't as good as the novels. He knows his anime, but just likes being negative for some reason. Also his spirit of steel is too strong, he's all over mecha anime.

Shredder is different, because he doesn't treat anime like an anime.

[Kaoru Chujo]

To be honest, I'm with C.A. I just can't help but look down on people who don't love this show. Complaining about the episode order makes me almost despise people. I know it's not right to do that, but that's how it makes me feel. I think it's how people must feel when I say I don't get Mushishi.

But if three minutes of a static camera, but a scene filled with objects and sounds, seems boring, then try some really great cinematic art, like Woman in the Dunes, for example. That Yuki reading scene was hilarious from beginning to end. All my cells were on the edge of laughter.

It's perfectly appropriate, however, to want to find fault when so many people are being so adulatory about this show. If I hadn't watched it, I would have felt the same. I'm always glad that I loved this show right from the start, before the bandwagon had time to get rolling.

But I also can't help feeling odd when other people don't like the shows I like. I worry that I'm missing some great fault that they can see. I don't want to be different from other people, it just seems to happen. And the more people like the shows I like, the more likely it is that other similar shows will be made.

I don't know whether popular taste is any higher in Japan than it is in America or India. I doubt it, since American movies seem to be very popular eveywhere. But I do see what I consider subtler humor more commonly in Japanese and British films than in US films. Mind you, I think David Lynch is a genius and Eraserhead is hilarious, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt if you like.

Actually, I think that combining money-making with art is what can make anime and film great. Money without art is drag, and art without any attempt to reach an audience can be, too. I keep repeating that Shakespeare and Dickens were popular artists in their day.

Finally, and not entirely off-topic, I want to recommend the films of Eric Rohmer, a French intellectual who makes films that are subtle, romantic, intelligent, and hilarious -- and that few in America seem to know. Try Claire's Knee (Le Genou de Claire), Full Moon over Paris (Nuits de la Pleine Lune), Pauline at the Beach (Pauline a la Plage), Autumn Tale (Conte d'Automne), My Night at Maud's (Ma Nuit Chez Maude) or almost any of his 50 films. I think they might appeal to some fans of the subtle humour/romance of SHnY.

[C.A.]

I don't really look down on people, but I really hate it when people do not put in an effort to watch this show.

This show is so good because of its depth, its intricate details, it has a really strong message and story under what seems to be a comedy and beautiful characters.

Its exactly because people don't want to put an effort into understanding the show that makes me feel really frustrated. Then they come up with baseless criticisms that the show lacks something which it actually has, just that they refuse to look at it.

I rated 10 for the show just because of its plot and story. I've mentioned many times in this sub forum that I watched this show solely for the story, I wasn't looking for a comedy or something nice to look at.