Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

The current Athena did behave worst as an antagonistic character while being possessed, but she's much more capable in controlling and dealing with her emotions compare to Hinagiku.

Athena/Alice resorted to blackmail to get what she wanted, without being possessed (we think).
I believe it's pretty universal that using blackmail is a sign of emotional immaturity.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Athena/Alice resorted to blackmail to get what she wanted, without being possessed (we think).
I believe it's pretty universal that using blackmail is a sign of emotional immaturity.

I believe that it's highly dependent on the reasons and thoughts for doing the blackmailing/manipulating.

If Alice's reason was over toys and such for her personal gain while disregard the damage inflicting on the others, I would call that immature. However, if she blackmailed Hinagiku with the intention of restoring her power and memories while not thinking of doing any harm to Hinagiku, I don't think that's emotionally immature. Her reason and thought is that of an adult with a necessary goal.

For example, Lelouch from Code Geass had done quite a number of manipulations/blackmailings using his geass in order to conquer Britannia. He had a goal and wanted to achieve it, but he needed more power and geass allowed him to achieve those means. His thoughts and reasons for his actions were nothing like those that are emotionally immature.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

If Alice's reason was over toys and such for her personal gain while disregard the damage inflicting on the others, I would call that immature. However, if she blackmailed Hinagiku with the intention of restoring her power and memories while not thinking of doing any harm to Hinagiku, I don't think that's emotionally immature. Her reason and thought is that of an adult with a necessary goal.

You realize the only difference between those two, by your own words, is whether she was thinking of doing harm to Hina, right? And it's quite obvious she was intending to do at least emotional/mental harm if she didn't comply. That's what made it a threat. She didn't threaten to hurt herself, she threatened to hurt Hina.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

I believe that it's highly dependent on the reasons and thoughts for doing the blackmailing/manipulating.

If Alice's reason was over toys and such for her personal gain while disregard the damage inflicting on the others, I would call that immature. However, if she blackmailed Hinagiku with the intention of restoring her power and memories while not thinking of doing any harm to Hinagiku, I don't think that's emotionally immature. Her reason and thought is that of an adult with a necessary goal.

Presenting the fact that Hinagiku loves Hayate to him when Hinagiku's not ready to do so herself. Yea, that's not harmful at all.

And we haven't been given why Alice wants her power and memories restored. Given her past experiences, she's probably going to use it for her own gain.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by GDB

You realize the only difference between those two, by your own words, is whether she was thinking of doing harm to Hina, right? And it's quite obvious she was intending to do at least emotional/mental harm if she didn't comply. That's what made it a threat. She didn't threaten to hurt herself, she threatened to hurt Hina.

Not quite. The difference that I stated include the "reason" and "thought" for doing so. In the first, I stated that the reason is over "toy" and the thought was that she doesn't care whether damage is done or not. The reason for the second is over "power and memories" which is a necessity for her, and I guess she did try to do some mental harm. She's not doing so for an immature ordeal.

I don't think the thought of hurting someone alone is immature, but the "reason" for doing so is what counts also. Actually, it may just be the reason alone. Having war is not immature, but the reason for the war could make it immature. It's the same for killing, fighting, etc.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Presenting the fact that Hinagiku loves Hayate to him when Hinagiku's not ready to do so herself. Yea, that's not harmful at all.

And we haven't been given why Alice wants her power and memories restored. Given her past experiences, she's probably going to use it for her own gain.

Haha, I guess I slipped on Athena's mischievousness. Curses!!!
Taking into account of how Hinagiku has been dealing with relationship, I supposed it may be like a billion of nuclear bombs coming after her.
Darn, how unthoughtful I was. *sigh*

Alice said she wants to become "Athena Tennousu" again.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Not quite. The difference that I stated include the "reason" and "thought" for doing so. In the first, I stated that the reason is over "toy" and the thought was that she doesn't care whether damage is done or not. The reason for the second is over "power and memories" which is a necessity for her, and I guess she did try to do some mental harm. She's not doing so for an immature ordeal.

But what difference is there between "toy" and "power"? Neither is essential. They're both merely wanted for selfish reasons. I don't see how power and memories can be a "necessity" at all. Sure, it's better to have power and memories than to not, but the same can be said of a toy.

I don't think the thought of hurting someone alone is immature, but the "reason" for doing so is what counts also. Actually, it may just be the reason alone.

She wants something for herself. Hina wasn't doing what she wanted, so she threatened to hurt her.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by GDB

But what difference is there between "toy" and "power"? Neither is essential. They're both merely wanted for selfish reasons. I don't see how power and memories can be a "necessity" at all. Sure, it's better to have power and memories than to not, but the same can be said of a toy.

The reason she wants to have her power and memories was because she wants to become "Athena Tennousu" again. It's a necessity for her to become her original self, and that's not an immature reason.

Let's compare:
I won't mind using you to get that toy. (Isn't this sentence sound 'childish' to you? Blackmailing someone over a toy?)

I won't mind using you to get my memories and power back. (This one could be selfish and 'evil,' but it doesn't have that 'childish' connotation to be called 'immaturity.')

Originally Posted by GDB

She wants something for herself. Hina wasn't doing what she wanted, so she threatened to hurt her.

That's what I called a "wrong doing," not an "immature doing." Her reason for doing so is not that of immature reasons.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

That's what I called a "wrong doing," not an "immature doing." Her reason for doing so is not that of immature reasons.

That's yet to be proven. We've yet to be given a reason for wanting her memories and power back. As I stated earlier, history tells us that it's entirely immature reasons for her.

That would be before Midas, scheming with Mikado for the power of the gods (which probably failed, leading to her being 'infected' with Midas), during Midas, acting out against Hayate for slights to her that weren't even his fault, and post-Midas, blackmailing Hinagiku.

[GlassesLady]

Going back to the current chapter, it turns out that Yukiji is badass when drunk. And that's awesome.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

That's yet to be proven. We've yet to be given a reason for wanting her memories and power back. As I stated earlier, history tells us that it's entirely immature reasons for her.

That would be before Midas, scheming with Mikado for the power of the gods (which probably failed, leading to her being 'infected' with Midas), during Midas, acting out against Hayate for slights to her that weren't even his fault, and post-Midas, blackmailing Hinagiku.

Personally, I thought it was a 'smart,' not immature, move of Alice to blackmail someone, who tried to run away, who has an item to help restore her power and memories (atm if you will). That decision is far from being immature from my point of view, and I would love to see more manipulations in the future.

It seems that our perception on history is quite different.

Sorry to say this but things like blackmailing/trickery/manipulation for one's personal gain happen everyday in our society. Instead of calling it emotional immaturity, I think the term "knowledge is power" is more wisely use.

[Used Can]

I think an important question would be if Alice would have actually told Hayate about Hina's feelings if she didn't comply. The answer would probably depend on what you think of Athena. Personally, I don't think she would have done it.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Personally, I thought it was a 'smart,' not immature, move of Alice to blackmail someone, who tried to run away, who has an item to help restore her power and memories (atm if you will). That decision is far from being immature from my point of view, and I would love to see more manipulations in the future.

It seems that our perception on history is quite different.

Sorry to say this but things like blackmailing/trickery/manipulation for one's personal gain happen everyday in our society. Instead of calling it emotional immaturity, I think the term "knowledge is power" is more wisely use.

Given that we haven't seen any action connecting Alice's return of power and memories being connected to the blade, and it seeming that all she might need, as indicated by her own statement, is the house, we don't even know if she needs the sword for the return of power and memories.
She certainly didn't try very hard when a possible situation came up to get it activated with the public bath chapter.
It seems more that she would need the blade to 'cap off' something with it's power as opposed to the continual power that would require Hinagiku living under the same roof.

Manipulations are not immaturity, Mikado seems to be great at manipulating people, and I doubt anyone would question that he's probably rather mature emotionally.
Miki even states that one of her 'likes' is manipulation, of Hinagiku specifically, and yet she seems rather emotionally mature, and even up front about her feelings of love.

And yet Athena/Alice manipulate for what seems to be entirely for her own good, and immaturely at that.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

Going back to the current chapter, it turns out that Yukiji is badass when drunk. And that's awesome.

I hope it's not just when she's drunk.
She used to be awesome without drink, hopefully that still holds true.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Manipulations are not immaturity, Mikado seems to be great at manipulating people, and I doubt anyone would question that he's probably rather mature emotionally.Miki even states that one of her 'likes' is manipulation, of Hinagiku specifically, and yet she seems rather emotionally mature, and even up front about her feelings of love.

And yet Athena/Alice manipulate for what seems to be entirely for her own good, and immaturely at that.

Like blackmailing, manipulation generally occurs when someone wants something from the others for their personal gain. The only difference between manipulation and blackmailing is that the former being secretive while the latter's intention is explicitly reveal.

I have no doubt that Mikado, like every intelligent businessmen, had manipulate countless people for his personal gain to have that great fortune of his. In the business world, manipulation/trickery/blackmailing is always used for one's personal gain, and rather than emotionally immature, I would call those people intelligence. It's no different compare to what Alice was doing.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think an important question would be if Alice would have actually told Hayate about Hina's feelings if she didn't comply. The answer would probably depend on what you think of Athena. Personally, I don't think she would have done it.

As Alice, I personally don't believe she would have told Hayate either. I don't feel telling him about Hina's feelings would do anything benefical for herself (in regards to regaining power). Alice wouldn't gain anything, thus - she'd dub it unimportant. I think she would try to find another way to get power.

As Athena (older self and with her memories) however - I still don't believe she would have told Hayate. I actually think for her, that kind of child play isn't quite her type - she's manipulative but not immature, in my opinion. Like you said, it all depends on what you think of Athena.

*get thrown into debate about 'immaturity'* :P

Don't hurt me, haha.

It's also tricky because Athena knew Hina didn't she? For a while anyway. Perhaps, if she had her memories, it might have been a bit different. I'm not quite sure on this though, it feels like she has more important things on her mind.

Nevertheless, it is for her personal gain, but she's a busy lady :P

[Used Can]

Something I find funny is that Athena, back in TEotW arc, seemed to have Maria in her memories. However, Maria doesn't seem to recognise Alice. So, I think there are several possibilities:

1. Athena saw Maria back then, but Maria didn't see Athena.
2. Maria is pretending not to know who Alice is.
3. Maria did see Athena back then, but doesn't remember her for some reason.

Moreover, didn't Hata say there was a reason for Hayate not remembering Athena during the beginning of the series and the reason for that being, supposedly, explained later? I think I read something liked that once. So, assuming I'm remembering well, couldn't this mean someone has manipulated/erased their memories for some reason?

[Trixie]

This has been something I have been pondering on for a while - all this memory altering, and who is responsible. If it is indeed memory loss. For Maria, I believe it's either she herself has met Athena and has mysteriously forgotten, or it could just be something simple as Athena having seen her, watching in her own interest as a potential friend that she may daydream about in her loneliness. If what you say is true, that somewhere it was mentioned Hayate had purposely forgotten about Athena, and then remembered later, it is quite interesting the reasons behind it.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Like blackmailing, manipulation generally occurs when someone wants something from the others for their personal gain. The only difference between manipulation and blackmailing is that the former being secretive while the latter's intention is explicitly reveal.

I have no doubt that Mikado, like every intelligent businessmen, had manipulate countless people for his personal gain to have that great fortune of his. In the business world, manipulation/trickery/blackmailing is always used for one's personal gain, and rather than emotionally immature, I would call those people intelligence. It's no different compare to what Alice was doing.

You said earlier 'Knowledge is Power'.
My counter to that is 'With great power, comes great responsibility.

Aika has knowledge of 'Haru's true identity. As of yet, we have yet to see her use this power as blackmail, thus using the power responsibly.

Alice learned that Hinagiku learned that Hinagiku loves Hayate, but is not ready to confess such to him (she did once, but such that Hayate could not hear it). She used this power as blackmail material, thus using the power irresponsibly.

It's can't be proven that Mikado ever resorted to blackmail, but he has used his 'power of knowledge' to gain great profits.
Are we also forgetting that the Tennos fortune supposedly rivals the Sanzenin fortune, thus making Athena a target of the same methods as Mikado.

Manipulation does not have to be for personal gain. As I have stated, Miki clearly enjoys manipulation of Hinagiku, and yet has yet to be seen doing it for her own gain, instead it actually appears to be currently focused on being used for Hina-tan's gain.

As far as Maria forgetting about knowing Athena or possibly not knowing, perhaps they were school-mates and Maria knew her only as a name on a list, while Athena recognizes her, which is why she sees her in the mirror.
It's also possible that Maria underwent the same 'age-down' process as Athena is currently experiencing, and thus has had her memories 'forgotten', so forgotten who Athena is, plus, not even Hayate recognized Athena when he first met Alice.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

not even Hayate recognized Athena when he first met Alice.

Pretty sure he recognized her, just couldn't believe it could possibly be her. After all, a person deaging by 10 years isn't exactly common place.

Except in Shounen Sunday.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

You said earlier 'Knowledge is Power'.
My counter to that is 'With great power, comes great responsibility.

Aika has knowledge of 'Haru's true identity. As of yet, we have yet to see her use this power as blackmail, thus using the power responsibly.

Alice learned that Hinagiku learned that Hinagiku loves Hayate, but is not ready to confess such to him (she did once, but such that Hayate could not hear it). She used this power as blackmail material, thus using the power irresponsibly.

That is more related to the morality boundary as it begs the question, "how should one use power?." Great power can be used for good, evil, or neither. It's not immature to do nothing with your power, nor it is immature to use your power to do evil deeds. There are many kinds of heroes/anti-heroes and villains.

Using power to blackmail in her case is not really an act of immaturity, but an act of "wrong doing." Immaturity is equivalent to being childish, not right or wrong. Blackmailing is wrong (to the majority) but it's not necessarily childish.

I won't say using power to blackmail someone with an only item to help restore your former self is irresponsibly usage of power. It was not used for fun nor was it used to play around, but it was 'correctly' used to achieve a purpose.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

It's can't be proven that Mikado ever resorted to blackmail, but he has used his 'power of knowledge' to gain great profits.
Are we also forgetting that the Tennos fortune supposedly rivals the Sanzenin fortune, thus making Athena a target of the same methods as Mikado.

Manipulation does not have to be for personal gain. As I have stated, Miki clearly enjoys manipulation of Hinagiku, and yet has yet to be seen doing it for her own gain, instead it actually appears to be currently focused on being used for Hina-tan's gain.

Nagi said something along the line that Mikado made a company bankrupted for making him mad (the chapter where she visited him). I have no doubt that he blackmailed many before with his power/wealth.
Athena's father or mother could be as manipulative as Mikado. How I wish to know more about them.

I said "generally" manipulation is used for personal gain. In Miki's case, it was for her enjoyment when making fun of others through manipulation which could be said as an act of immaturity.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

As far as Maria forgetting about knowing Athena or possibly not knowing, perhaps they were school-mates and Maria knew her only as a name on a list, while Athena recognizes her, which is why she sees her in the mirror.
It's also possible that Maria underwent the same 'age-down' process as Athena is currently experiencing, and thus has had her memories 'forgotten', so forgotten who Athena is, plus, not even Hayate recognized Athena when he first met Alice.

So... Maria would actually be even older?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!