2012-11-15, 00:07 | Link #601 | ||
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
Skipping to the end, ignoring the actual build up, does not serve the same impression. You're only looking at the outcome, not the progression. They were firmly established as antagonists, served with conflicts. You cannot, CANNOT just ignore that. If you really want to compare Magomett with Scar and Kassim, then conflict and battles are inevidable part of the cycle. Otherwise, you're only comparing him to convinient parts of the two characters, which is disservice to your own argument. Quote:
This has never changed. He chose Alibaba, yes. But his role in Kouga Clan and Hakuei was very obvious that he was only supporting, albeit with great influence, the two leaders baba and Hakuei (the worthy kings) to find resolution. I'm not saying "worthy kings" are ones Aladdin chose, those are exactly what they are, worthy kings in the Magi of Creation's eyes. Aladdin is the protagonist of the manga, but he is not the protagonist of the world. He is a guide, a prophet, not a king.
__________________
|
||
2012-11-15, 00:21 | Link #602 | ||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
I am not ignoring or challenging the fact that they are at some point of the story "antagonists"will get into physical conflict with the protagonists. Mogamett is already an antagonist and might get into physical conflict with the protagonists, I am not stupid enough to argue against that. I am merely saying that their character resolution. and the victory of the protagonist over them, does not really entail "having sense beaten into them" at all, as you were trying to say many posts before (though it seems to have shifted now), which basically imply "FALCON PAWCH = character resolution". It is not a "might makes right" situation for Scar and Kassim's character resolution at all. I also hope the same for Morganett, since his character has that potential to be more than, as I said before, a Ryousai/Jamil whose only role is to be bitchslapped. I mean just use an example of Magneto, who Morganett is often compared to. I mean he has his butt kicked alot by the X-men, but that is not what made him change his world view to be less of a mutant hardass. Sense wasn't "beaten" into him, even though he sometimes tasted defeat, other events and people did "(Like Xavier, the Avengers and their acceptance of Mutants, the events of House of M etc etc etc). Quote:
Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 00:34. |
||
2012-11-15, 00:36 | Link #603 | ||
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
When we say shounen action manga resolution of punch to the face, you jump to conclusion that it's all mindless brawlfest, no intelligence involved, yada yada. Your own prejudice is completely clouding reasonable thought or reaction. Having senses beaten in. That doesn't mean a "physical punch put the idea into their heads... physically". That never happens, and you're taking words way too freakin literal. Senses beaten into them happens following a physical conflict. When an antagonist is physicaly and mentally beaten, defeated, broken, and is in a state to listen, accept, or ponder his predicament. This is the case with pretty much EVERY case of such shounen manga villain redemption. Perhaps before you jump to the "OMG he must mean NARUTO! BLEACH!" conclusion, you might want to give it a thought of what it means. That's why you never understood marvel's "slice of humble pie". Because to you, punching a villain to his knees is NARUTO! BLEACH! (which is quite ironic, as Naruto and Bleach is not really like that. That's more trait of One Piece, where the protagonist has no claimed responsibility of reprecussion, does not care, and just physicalliy beats the antagonist to pulp simply because he pisses him off. Resolve is left to the denizens, and the pirates move on. Which to you would be poor writing. It is not.) Quote:
I'm gonna end it on that note, I feel like arguing with a politician.
__________________
Last edited by aohige; 2012-11-15 at 00:47. |
||
2012-11-15, 00:48 | Link #604 | ||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
You do not always have to beat someone down to pulp and make him taste that sort of failure before s/he can even entertain that s/he is wrong. It can be gratifying for the audience, but that will just play to standard Shounen conventions. Scar wasn't beaten down to pulp before he started listening to Miles or Winry, nor was he at rock bottom. The same with Kassim, who is winning his fight at that stage. I read marvel's comment about "eating humble pie", and comments that "blow up the system" as people who just want a direct "might makes right" resolution to a problem.Thinking that beating the person to a broken husk, making him/her lose everything, would automatically make them consider that their ideals are wrong. Realistically, it doesn't happen like that. Just look at Scar, everytime he gets beat down he just gets more attached to his ideas of revenge, the same with Magneto. What resolved their character arcs is not the physical conflict, or the fact that "they lost". Heck, Aladdin didn't win the argument with Kassim when he was "arguing with" Kassim. It was only until Kassim actually gets to see for himself how Aladdin is like, that he realizes his mistakes. The same with Dunya, beating her doesn't solve her character arc at all, it was the actions thereafter. "Beat the guy and he will reconsider" happens in Shounen alot, and that is basically the baseline when I talk about "Naruto/Bleach". I think you overread into "Naruto/Bleach" level as be talking about these things being "bad", I am merely referring to sticking to a well-established Shounen "baseline". I am totally fine with that kind of portrayal even if they are generic, but of course it will be quite short of being "excellent" in my eyes. Quote:
I am not suggesting, never at all, that Aladdin would become THE NEW KING OF MAGOSTAUTT to solve the problem. I think the problem is that you keep forcing these words into my mouth, and when I deny them, you think I am shifting my stance. You can even pull and achieve check if you want. I had been pretty consistent on that position. Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 01:01. |
||
2012-11-15, 00:59 | Link #605 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
No. Your post 1 replying to me was when I said Dumberdouch is over his head, defending the little racist blind old man that he is not.
Which you have shifted. Then some "reductionist" rant when I called him out for what he is. Your argument has since the start, completely on the side of Mogamett being "he ain't that bad, stop calling him out". Which you shifted, most likely since you read 162. You kept insisting at "complexity of his character", when really, he ain't that complex. Neither is the situation at hand. I think you're overthinking it that way, and making a mess of argument based on the supposed "Magomett isn't that bad a person". But he is. (yes, I did a "reductionist" there. ) Like I said, politician talk. WSS ain't /pol/, and a villain who kicks children in the face and thinks of them as maggots deserve to get beat up in a shounen manga. Quite plain and simple. Just like anyone who acts like that in other Sunday manga, including Kongoh Banchou. Even in FMA, if a character acted the way this old man did, I can guarantee you he would have had it coming. Regardless of "redemption" afterwards.
__________________
Last edited by aohige; 2012-11-15 at 01:18. Reason: smileys make the world a rainbow |
2012-11-15, 01:20 | Link #606 | |||||||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
This is me directly saying the current system's base assumption is racist(speciest). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
However, it seems some on the forum just thinks that "because he is a racist (specists) pig (which he is), even the good parts of his character actually bad". As if a character must either be completely white or black, god forbid an bad person with actual virtues. This is why I am surprised that the forum jumped on his comments on wanting to help magician children (and by extention Yamu and loli Magi) who might be being mistreated and exploited in their home nations as they speak. Yet the interopetation is overwhelmingly "LOOK AT THE ARROGANT OLD MAN WHO presumes he knows better than Loli Magi", ignoring that he is also talking about Magician children all over the world. |
|||||||
2012-11-15, 01:27 | Link #607 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
No one has said "everything Magoshuatt does is wrong".
No one has said "character must either be completely white or black" No one has denied "Hogwarts system cannot be improved". You throw out accusation of "putting words in my mouth", yet you create these unopposing arguments and pretend you're just being misunderstood. Do you not notice the hypocracy there? Also, none of the above has anything to do with "Magomett should recieve what's coming to him". Quote:
By throwing them together and only countering the latter, you are doing exactly what you are accusings others of doing. See above. You have done more twisting of words in the last two posts than this entire thread, man. All the while protesting that you're victim of such practice. Dude is a bad man. He does not know his own evil. His "good" in him will help him redeem himself. But first, spanking is coming. What you're saying is like "the kid isn't all bad, he doesn't deserve spanking for burning the cat alive!". Oh no, yes he does goddamnit.
__________________
|
|
2012-11-15, 01:32 | Link #608 | ||||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2012-11-15, 01:39 | Link #609 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
You keep assuming one extreme to another. You say gray, but your own view is if it's not white, then it must be black.
If they think he's bad, they must not see any good in him! etc. You're assuming everyone else is blind. If you can't see the blaringly obvious act of what you did, then oh well... I'm out of words. Your reasoning is actually a lot like Mogamett, tbh.
__________________
|
2012-11-15, 01:44 | Link #610 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
Really? I should put on my wizard hat and cape.... |
|
2012-11-15, 01:47 | Link #611 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
LOL!
Not the racist part of course, I wouldn't dare accuse you of such. Just the reasoning portion and mirroring nature. Quote:
We're not stupid. We know his motives. We know why he does it. We know he loves his people. But they do not excuse anything. No one's denying he has some good in him, hell, Adolf Hitler had some good in him, doesn't mean he's excusable. Whatever that's good in him will come in play when he redeems himself. But first, spanking is in order. He can redeem himself later. Whatever. But as a rule of thumb, what he did DOES need retribution. You do realize if you were the author of this series, you probably would have Magi canned long ago for boring the crap out of readers. Edit: If it's any consolation, if I was the writer, I'm sure the outcome would be similar.
__________________
Last edited by aohige; 2012-11-15 at 02:03. |
|
2012-11-15, 02:04 | Link #612 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
His reasons make doesn't make it excusable, but it makes it understandable and still based in some kind of logic. Yet I see the words "DUMB-ledore" being tossed around like its free, and that some people seem to twist his "genuine concern" into "arrogance", this really doesn't make it look like some people considered his side. Again, I must point out that I never found Adolf Hilter comparison very appropriate. This is also why I stated (all this time) that we shouldn't call Moganett's system "Nazi" because it is such a thought terminating cliche. As I said before, while I am not opposed to spanking, spanking is optional and can be skipped if he redeems himself before that. That will be questionable, since you don't actually know what I do for a living. In any case, that the "character arc" argument is long and boring doesn't necessarily means its execution would be. However, I would admit that if I write, it probably be doorstoppers that do not sell at all. |
|
2012-11-15, 02:10 | Link #613 | ||||
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The author is very sensitive to her rankings, and has expilicitly said she checks the ranking every week to make sure she's on the right track. If she just did a "oh, this person did such despicable acts but he's understanding and no retribution will come his way", you will have millions of dissapointed teenage readership she can't afford to lose. And I'll upp you on that, if I wrote, it'd be a dumbbell that sank to the bottom of the river.
__________________
|
||||
2012-11-15, 02:16 | Link #614 | |||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Not really a complete fit in my opinion. However, since it is a opinion, then so be it. Quote:
Again, I can't presume to know how much skill Ohtaka has, what qualifies as "skill" or what she feels is the best way to go. Of course, I am merely arguing a hypothetical that she can do it that way if she writes it satisfyingly. Plus, Sunday does have a decently large percentage of above-15 readership (compared to Jump which basically have majority below-15 readership). Implying your book will be printed on good quality paper that can survive a trip down to the river bed? Mine probably would fragment the moment it touches water (lousy paper quality). Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 02:27. |
|||
2012-11-15, 02:26 | Link #615 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Btw, this argument is a mirror of 2ch Magi manga thread (which is hell of a lot more civil compared to other Weekly shounen threads), pretty much exactly the same argument on both sides.
The only difference is, since it's not an international forum, a lot more.. straight forward social comparison is sometimes made (since there's no one to offend. ) Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-11-15, 02:30 | Link #616 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
Spoiler:
I know. However, I really dread actually naming those groups. I feel compelled to even have to "*" out most of the syllables so they are not so obvious to people who are not fully paying attention. Talking about them is really just gonna attract flame bait. Last edited by Rainrir; 2012-11-15 at 02:44. |
|
2012-11-15, 12:03 | Link #617 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
But my point was that despite all of the geopolitical themes present in many Tintin stories, it's still very much a pulp adventure series. Herge doesn't ignore the forest for the trees and just made a bunch of fun comics for everyone to enjoy! And the same can be said for people like Ohtaka or Oda for Magi and OP, respectively. That is not a bad thing at all, nor did I ever insinuate that it was. Quote:
FYI, Balbadd is my favorite arc, too. And while I don't (nor did I ever) deny that it had a more complex theme, it's still not THAT deep. I mean, let's not forget that we still had people using magical weapons and whatnot in this war (and there's kind of the whole thing with Alibaba's surrogate brother literally transforming into a demon). Again, I do want to stress that I enjoyed the fact that the conflict wasn't as simple as "beat the bad guy and everyone is happy", but that still doesn't change the fact that it's still a part of a serial pulp story. And for the umpteenth time, I do not see why that has to be a bad thing. And for the record, please don't say that I prefer my shonen fighting mangas to be more like the current Naruto and Bleach. My opinion of those particular two series is..... not very favorable, to say the least. At least use examples like Jojo or Hunter x Hunter or something (which ironically, both tend to have battles more complex than "punch the bad guy 'til you win (not that I mind a good brawler series too, every now and then, heh))...... |
||
2012-11-15, 13:18 | Link #618 |
Free Opinions Available
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vacationing in the southern isles.
|
Except he does whenever it comes to magical conflicts. Whether it is the ancient legends, Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy, or the current TV show, Merlin spends a majority of his time off fighting magical beings and wizards and smoothing Arthur's path in ways mostly incomprehensible to his king candidate. The muggle Prime Minister has no say in the operation of Hogwarts and Dumbledore does not interfere with muggles unless wizards are killing them. So in a land ruled by magicians I would not expect Alibaba to have much input unless they start a war. This is Aladdin's wizard problem. Alibaba has his own country needing reformed.
|
2012-11-15, 13:45 | Link #620 | |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
|
Quote:
|
|
Tags |
fantasy, licensed, manga, shounen |
Thread Tools | |
|
|