2006-09-01, 11:56 | Link #21 | |
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Is there any form of standard that the captains must follow when deciding on VC or other ranks? (like the ones you mentioned about defeating a captain/having bankai for deciding on Captain). What I am asking for is any actual mention about this issue in the manga (or anime if I've missed out on that). |
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2006-09-01, 12:13 | Link #22 | |
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As I have implied before, captains position is special, but that is not the case for vice-captains position. So, I don't think it is a position that is worth the additional effort of interfering from the higher-ups. What we have seen till now is some vice-captains having some kind of (for instance, emotional) attachment to the captains in a mutual way, such as the cases of Kenpachi (fatherly), Shunsui (love), Mayuri (godly/research). Maybe these are just exceptions, but they give an idea of how the selection process can work. |
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2006-09-01, 12:20 | Link #23 | |
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VC = second seat. and it is general concensus that they're the second strongest members of their division - that's why they, along with their captains are the only ones with the spiritual limit when they enter the human world. Captains do have strong influences, but they still pick the powerful ones, which is why top talents like renji and kira gets transferred around
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2006-09-01, 12:37 | Link #24 |
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If Ikkaku, Rukia, the other one from Kenpachi's division do not have any limiting seal, then that rule is a bit stupid as you said so - just a formality.
So, vice captain is expected to be strong (and it is usually the case the strong befriend the strong not the weak, since they might need to rely on each other), but they don't have to be the strongest among the rest. And I don't think Ikkaku or the others cases represent a special case. In other words, if the vice-captain does not represent the second strongest one among all the remaining people on that division, then it becomes a division based decision rather than a higher-up related decision. That also refers to a more personal kind of decision, compared to the selection process used for the captain seat. |
2006-09-01, 12:56 | Link #25 | |
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there's proof of this common practice in S.S., and you just call what's clear the manga a stupid act because you don't like the fact that VCs are IN GENERAL the second strongest in their divisions? are you also gonna overthrow the whole seat ranking, cause you know, VC is actually second seat? what's the point of arguing if you're gonna call the manga itself stupid/wrong? let's see, okay, since urahara and ichigo mastered bankai in a very short time, bankai can, in general, be mastered in a very short time. but byakuya said otherwise! -well, he's wrong. but people with bankai are regarded highly in S.S. - well, S.S. is stupid... is there an end to this? here you go, this ought to solve your problems: 尸魂界の護衛及び現世における魂魄の保護、虚の退治等の任務をこなす実動部隊。十三の部隊で構成され、一隊 二百人強、総勢三千人程度がその任に就いている。全権を握るのは一番隊隊長・山本元柳斎重國。任務内容ゆえ、部隊内階級は完全に戦闘能力のみで決められており、上位席官ほど単純に強い。特に副官及び隊 長はその中でも飛び抜けた強さの者が選ばれる。隊長職は、加えて何らかの職務を兼任することが多い。二番隊隊長砕蜂は隠密機動総括軍団長、十二番隊隊長涅 マユリは二代目技術開発局局長を兼任。元十二番隊隊長浦原喜助も技術開発局初代局長を勤めていた。各隊とも 主義、気風が多分に異なっており、それらは全て各隊隊長の考え方による。各隊の特色があり、四番隊=医療・ 補給・雑用等専門、十一番隊=戦闘部隊、などがある。 rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course Last edited by hdx514; 2006-09-01 at 13:12. |
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2006-09-01, 13:29 | Link #26 | ||
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Also, this is an English forum, if you wish others to understand what you are meaning to say, then it is better to include a translation to what you are quoting in other language. And lastly, if there are more than a few exceptions to the ranking system, then that means it is not a clear-cut system as you see or want others to see. |
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2006-09-01, 13:48 | Link #27 | ||
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2006-09-01, 14:04 | Link #28 |
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If you are writing what you are meaning to say, then what does that mean "rank is proportional to combat power, that's a fact, with a few exceptions of course ". If you are admitting exceptions, do you need any verifications from others? Exceptions might easily refer to captains decisions regarding whom to select as the vice captain. If you do not wish to accept that observation, then it is better to not do what you do not like to do "not involve in discussion in a forum where most of the views involve opinions".
Also, after what happened in the recent chapters, I "think" Ikkaku is stronger than Yashiru. And I "think" that is the case even before his power up. You want proof of that, and I can ensure you, you will never get, unless you see those two fighting. |
2006-09-01, 14:17 | Link #29 | |
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2006-09-01, 14:23 | Link #30 | |
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2. the exception i'm talking about was the narcissist yumichika, he took 5th seat because he thinks the number 4 does not match his "beauty". it is a. bloody rare and b. got nothing to do with any VCs being weaker than seated officers. since we're talking about yachiru's powers as a VC here and since i am in support of “ranking proportional to power“rule while you are against it believing a VC is weaker than a her 3rd seat, i should be asking you to provide me evidence of this kind of exception, but you clearly cannot. 3. With what happened in the recent chapters there's evidence that ikkaku is not as strong as yachiru, the evidence being yumichika calling him "the second strongest MAN" in division 11 and not simply "second strongest". your on the other hand probably thinks ikkaku is stronger because a. he is damn strong and b. yachiru is damn young. and While i can provide you many examples of a "damn young" character in bleach being more powerful than the "damn strong" ikkaku, you can't provide example of a seated officer being stronger than his/her VC. 4. we don't have to see yachiru fight ikkaku to tell who's stronger. this is not an opinion either. |
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2006-09-01, 14:35 | Link #31 |
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Ikkaku is "at Captain level" and, imo, "stronger" than Yachiru (if you go by the wording, the second strongest MAN does mean directly neither the third strongest in the division nor the second strongest in the division - it means use your observation to decide on one). For me this is BS meeting with reality (again if you do not like the wording, choose a better one next time yourself)...
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2006-09-01, 14:50 | Link #32 |
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it's not BS, it IS possible that yachiru is weak, i have no problem with that, as i said before we really need to see her in action once before any definite conclusions can be made. that said, i do have a problem with people saying that her powers are irrelevant cause kenpachi MUST have made her VC or VCs are in general selected by captains according to personal preference not power - because these are simply WRONG.
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2006-09-02, 01:17 | Link #33 | |
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2006-09-02, 02:19 | Link #34 |
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the problem is that we dont know how ages works in soul society. Look at rukia, she is older than ichigo by alot of years. That means yachiru could be like 50 in human years.
Vice captains are chosen by the captains and the captains are chosen by the upper tier. What would happen if u had 13 captains and a vice captain reached bankai? would u make an extra division? Anyways vice captains are generally chosen out of ppl that have achieved shikai. If u got shikai u are a candidate. Most captains would choose the strongest but vice captain is more of a functionary then anything. They are there to do the stuff too lowly for the captains. 11th division is slightly different because as we can see most of 11th are very weak cept for the captain to 4th seat, maybe 5th. ikkaku is most likely stronger than yachiru but because he doesnt really care for the title he just stays as third. Vice captains arent even that important as fighters anyway. In a ranking system a captain is 100, VC is 10 and all the others go down from there.. And thats being kind. Rukia is also weak compared to captain level but probably strong compared to other seated officers. Im guessing vice captain level at least. |
2006-09-02, 04:05 | Link #35 | |
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and rukia, well, being part of the main cast, she is more like a BUG. her abilities have not been consistent in the manga, and there's no way someone like her could recover and improve in such a short time, she wasn't even top talent back at the academy. and in reality, if you're not at least near captain level or have cheats enabled like orihime, then you have no significance in the hollow arc, not like rukia or yachiru or lots of other VCs have ever been of any use. only the powerful ones matter in bleach. yamamoto could probably easily take on ALL shinigamis below a 3rd seat at once and finish them all. |
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2006-09-02, 04:50 | Link #36 | |
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I belive all seated officers have achieved shikai, even Hanatarou who is the 7th seat has one
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Her poor performce at the start of the manga and anime can be chalked up to the following things: It was her first solo mission to Earth, before she had always been fighting as part of a team. She was haveing a hard time scenceing the hollow because of Ichigo's uncontrolled sprit energy. She was being distracted by Ichigo himself durring the fight. Last edited by kagato3; 2006-09-02 at 05:27. |
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2006-09-02, 07:50 | Link #37 | |
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Spoiler:
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2006-09-02, 15:40 | Link #38 | ||||||||
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Fact 1: This was Rukia's first solo mission (manga 0a) Fact 2: She was haveing a hard time finding the hollow because of the Spirtitual force pouring out of Ichigo had confused her senses (manga chp1) Fact 3: She had no problem cutting halfway through it's arm to free Yuzu (manga chp1) Fact 4: Rukia was winning untill Ichigo started bugging her durring the fight drawing her atention away from the hollow. (manga chp1) Fact 5: she wouldn't have even have been wounded if she hadn't thrown herself in front of Ichigo to save him when he was going to give him self to the hollow in the mistaken belief that it would then go away. (manga chp1) |
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2006-09-02, 17:06 | Link #39 |
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renji, kira and momo were all top division members, rukia was second, direct comparison right there, she's weaker than them all. if you aint at least near captain level you ain't worth shit in the coming war, that's it, period, no more OT stuff from me.
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2006-09-02, 20:28 | Link #40 |
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is Yachiru a genius? well, she could fingerpaint with blood before she could walk
her seat in her division doesn't say much to as since it was granted to her by Kenpachi, as he was granted the Capitan seat on other terms than anyone else too the fact that how strong she is wouldn't change her possition, but this won't change her strenght neighter :P the fact that she has to be Kenpachi's VC was mention when Ikkaku was about to fight Iba, Iba left 11th division to become VC cause no matter how strong he would become he would never be Zaraki's VC Capitan level recently become something more irrelevant since we have enemies boyond that and can't just make insane powerups for everybody or change good guy's crew, so like before (since story is well build) what matters is the skill not the strenght itself Zaraki lost to Ichigo but won against Tousen Yumichaka told that Ikkaku is the strongest men under Zaraki so he probably mean that Yachiru is stronger, and if Ikkaku is on Capitan level that won't make Yachiru above Capitan level, but just faster or with better special skill in shikai but in Bleach we don't know who is exactly stronger untill they fight against each other with 100% cause for example Kira that doubles weight of everything his Wabisuke cuts can outmatch many enemies (if he would trully didn't tell anybody about his zanpakotu's ability, but since we're in "filler" and it's japanese story everytime he uses his ability on somebody new he has to say what does it do, or else the enemy wouldn't be able to think of contratact plan ) Kira even mention that if he would graduate from academy at first try he would be bigger genius than Shuhei, and fact him being coward wouldn't change a thing between Rukia and Renji grew up over 60 past, and there is less than 100 years for both Yachiru and Hitsugaya to grow after them entering academy, but neighter of those two grew up to be a teenage, even when they posses bigger strenght many arque that Ikkaku isn't strong enough (like Rukia) to be called capitan level, even with recent news, so why shouldn't they say that Yachiru isn't stronger than Hitsugaya or bigger genius? and Ichigo manage to get bankai in 2,5 day of training at it after 1 month of being shinigami, when even Hitsugaya probably took years, and Ichigo has 23rd place in grades in school, but still he's rather to be consider blockhead strong hero type so why someone should consider Yachiru a genius when all she do is having fun and Kaien weren't crap, he would rip bere handed that hollow if it didn't come inside him, and I would like to mention that it was the strongest thing that Aizen probably made before deciding to swith to making Arrancars with Hyoukou(sp), and we've seen huuuuge hollows before this one
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