2006-04-25, 20:17 | Link #41 | |||||||||||||||||
Name means little...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I copied and pasted the conversation on "haruhi marble" here. (As long as we don't go into comparison of which anime's better, we should be able to have some fun with this)
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2006-04-26, 14:56 | Link #43 | ||||
Lore Hunter
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The Science Post
Ok... gonna split this post in 2 because they're huge and "Reality Marble" has nothing to do with the Physics I'm going to talk on below:
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Quantum Computers We're still trying to find a suitable candidate for use as a Qubit. Individual electrons (trapped in tiny potential wells that we call Quantum Dots) are an option, as well as whole atoms (e.g. doped atoms of one element in the lattice of another). What's manipulated can either be the spin or the energy level (ground state vs 1st excited state) of the qubit candidate in question - something that can be in a quantum superposition of both while unobserved. Superconducting qubits are another option - where the current goes clockwise and anti-clockwise at the same time, or where there's an extra pair of electrons in the superconducting loop or not. Well, if anyone's really interested I can email you the Literature Review I did on this topic last year. Let's move onto other topics. Uncertainty Principle Delta_x * Delta_p >= h_bar/2 (in one dimension) which is an absolutely tiny number (~10^-34 in magnitude for standard SI units) where Delta_x = uncertainty in Position and Delta_p = uncertainty in Momentum That h_bar/2 is so small is why the Uncertainty Principle is only significant for extreme microscopic levels. At the macroscopic, if I look at a book on the table and measure where it is, you know I can't tell whether it's 13.612951240351 cm away from the table edge or 13.612951240352 cm {Disclaimer: this figure's order of magnitude of uncertainty was made up: it gets my point across even if inaccurate} - and frankly I won't care. That same level of uncertainty (10^-14 m, with appropriate corresponding uncertainty for momentum of ~10^-20 kg m/s) is absolutely huge for an isloated lone proton though (which is ~10^-15 m in size) - that proton could be anywhere within 10 lengths of itself at a given time (while it's moving). Theoretically, the above equation says it is possible to know exactly where a quantum sized particle is at a given time - but you'd have no idea how fast and in what direction it's travelling. Conversely, you can know the exact speed and mass of a given particle, but you'd have no idea where in this Universe it was located. Normally, we have a balance of uncertainty between the two. Hmm, I guess the only reason this is relevant to Haruhi-ism is: Spoiler for I get the feeling everyone knows this about Mikuru anyway:
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(Um yeah, I never took the Information Theory courses so not much I can say here unless I go read up on it ^^; Main Topic: Time Travel Quote:
One Timeline Only theory can be uncomfortable for some people since it can be closely linked with the concept of Predetermined Fate. It can also get really messy with Time Paradoxes. Though mind you, think about this if you're uncomfortable with Fate/Hitsuzen: How do you tell apart whether Free Will exists or Fate is instead true? If all attempts to read Fate (e.g. fortune telling etc) are interpreted as trying to approximate a model for Fate and get some readings out of it (hey, this is exactly what Science is when applied to everything else - belief in your theory and trying to get some meaningful predictions/measurements out of it. Disclaimer: I can lay down arguments and debates without necessarily having a strong opinion on what I'm saying, so don't assume my personal opinion is X just because i'm writing about it), then any instances of 'defying Fate' is due to an error in reading Fate than Fate failing. All you have is Causality - whether you believe it's applied only at the individual decision scale or in a Fate scale, you can't actually differentiate between the two conclusively. In other words, Fate vs Free Will is a matter of personal belief and both sides can take up Frames of Thought where they can hold to their belief without shaking. Parallel Worlds is mirrored by Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Noein covered this concept quite nicely - time travel is actually an act of hopping dimensions to a parallel world which is exactly like your own past (maybe not quite but almost) up to the point where you pop in. If you "go back in time to fix a problem", then you're actually escaping to another world and saving that instead of your original one. If you then "return to the present and enjoy the world without said problem" then you're not really back in your original world, but yet another world (but you can't tell the difference and just don't care). Alternatively, maybe you choose to stay in that timeline that you 'fixed the problem' in - then you've just migrated to this timeline for a happier existence (and you can co-exist with the 'you' in this dimension once you get over it as it's not really 'you', but a perfect clone of you). If a story ever bothered to look back at the original timeline, it would be depressing as you'd have disappeared instead of 'time travelling' (assuming you can never make it back - if you do then you just realise you've been helping some other timeline and the problem hasn't changed here). A friend of mine came up with one very interesting thought regarding this "quantum forking" of timelines and the Butterfly Effect: the infinity of different timelines will all converge again at the End of Time when the Universe 'dies'. To clarify, first we must make the assumption that (or more accurately, 'choose to only consider the subset of Universes which') all timelines share the same fundamental constants and laws of Physics (else we can't even begin to conceive and debate on these different Universes - gotta have some ground of familiarity afterall). If all timelines have the same Origin (Big Bang, or some other creation theory), then ultimately they'll all have the same End (whether it's entropic heat death of the Universe or Big Crunch, that doesn't matter - point is all timelines will do one or the other). Therefore while we're forking and branching out timelines all the time, somehow we have to bring them back together again. And one way of doing that is noting that not all changes produce a Butterfly Effect: Imagine 2 different timelines where in both I put a book down to write a letter then pick it back up again. An infinity of other parallel worlds aside, if these two particular timelines only differ by exactly what position I put down my book in, then essentially they'll be identical and would have 'merged' after I pick up the book again - I won't care whether it was 1 cm to the left compared to in the other world, or that it was angled differently - I'll pick it up again regardless. There will be a myriad of 'choices' which ultimately don't have a lasting impact. I could roll a dice and I get a 4 in one timeline and a 5 in the other timeline, but what if I was rolling the dice because I was bored and didn't care how it landed? Or what if I didn't even bother looking at the dice because I just wanted to throw something? Now mind you, something a HUGE as killing one person would bring a whole slew of changes but way in the end it'll all even out and become indifferent again (though this might take an Eternity to achieve). Erm... there is no 'Conclusion' to this post is there? Final point I want to make? Science is a lot like Religion when you know enough about it - it's not absolute, there are alternate versions_of/substitutes_for your theories and it becomes a matter of personal belief and trying to prove the others wrong with extremely-hard-to-find-and-justify evidence. All our Quantum talk above coule be crude and inaccurate approximations to Reality ^^ So... yeah... now to actually talk about the world of Suzumiya Haruhi based on a loose agreement to the above 'background knowledge' - if I've succeeded in convincing you (assuming I explained it clearly - it certainly won't be for many people) of this background that is (it is plenty disputable yes)... ^^;; |
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2006-04-26, 15:10 | Link #44 | |
Lore Hunter
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The "Reality Marble" post
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Reality Marble is a space where you can only do one characteristic thing unique to the caster, but in that space you can break the laws of nature to do it. Marble Phantasm can do anything within the laws of nature also in a given space but you're not limited to "only one thing" unlike the Reality Marble. Spoiler for Novel Vol 1 (Yuutsu) Ch 5 event, which hasn't been done in the anime yet:
Spoiler for On Haruhi the character:
Hehe, it's still a good crossover comparison ^^ |
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2006-04-26, 15:13 | Link #45 | |
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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What would happen then in the forever expanding model of the universe where there is no 'end in time'? Will we wind up with no convergence of alternate space-time? on the phantasm Spoiler:
(It is little wonder why so many physicists become philosophers...)
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-26 at 15:26. |
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2006-04-26, 15:40 | Link #46 | |
Lore Hunter
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As for what happens in the Open Universe model's End of Time... dah, can't remember the exact details but it comes down to 'heat death'. All matter decays (nuclei eventually all become Iron nuclei which is the most stable or break down before that - and the Iron will eventually 'evaporate' away too) into the unbound energy form ("matter is solidified energy"); Entropy is maxed out (it cannot increase anymore) and there'd be no gradient in Temperature/Energy therefore everything looks bleak and uniform and in utter entropy. Mmm no, I need to do some revision before I can actually define what 'entropy' is for you as applied to this scenario. Ask me again a month later or separately read it up? |
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2006-04-26, 15:53 | Link #47 | |
Name means little...
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(here's something I found randomly) http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home...in/quantum.htm
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A thing I am not sure about is whether or not if the alternate planes will be just as spread out as our plane (with several dimentions rolled up as M-theory suggests)... Going back to the evatoration. I remember a talk of how that eventually we will wind up with gigantic Hydrogen atoms since that is the simplest atomic structure to make and with no such thing as absolute vaccum, the only things that should remain and potentially form an 'atom' on a very large scale... provided that not all matter gets turned back into what amounts to universal background radiation.
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2006-04-26, 16:09 | Link #48 | |
Lore Hunter
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How the hell you define an 'atom' that big I do not know - unless we're talking about Neutron Stars. |
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2006-04-26, 16:18 | Link #49 | |
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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That's a good question. Conventional wisdom regarding nuclearstrong/nuclearweak force would not work (and how big an impact gravity might have with cosmological distance involved and a very small mass make things even more interesting) ... subsequently, what would happen if an 'anti-hydrogen "atom"' collides with a 'hydrogen "atom"' when the subatomic particles are more displaced than 1 AU (I mean can you even collide at all? Wouldn't you simply exchange bond or something...)
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(not so thing regarding radiation... today's 20yr after Chernobyl)
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-26 at 18:35. |
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2006-04-27, 07:46 | Link #50 |
Lore Hunter
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Regarding that Information Entropy equation, a friend of mine provides the answer:
Shannon's Information Content: for a given set A(x) where x is the variable, the average entropy (information content) is given by: H(x) = SUM{ p(x) * log_2 (1/p(x)) } where p(x) = probability of event x |
2006-04-27, 14:32 | Link #51 |
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_entropy
This proves fascinating and relavent for anyone doing data.comm or even in database. Anyway, the expression H(x) = SUM{ p(x) * log_2 (1/p(x)) } = -SUM{ p(x) * log_2p(x)) } is best known for compression of alphanumeric string character, transmitted in bits (which is why we're looking at log base 2) entropy is loosely defined as state of randomness from what I seen so far... (just googled and found http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/b....Equal.Entropy to look at) According to Dr. Thomas D. Schneider, Information is always a measure of the decrease of uncertainty at a receiver (or molecular machine). "The conditional entropy Hy(x) will, for convenience, be called the equivocation. It measures the average ambiguity of the received signal." That makes the "explosion of information" an interesting thing to happen out of the blue. If everything is supposed to goto entropy, this sudden decrease of randomness is disconcerting.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-27 at 15:00. |
2006-04-27, 16:54 | Link #52 |
Busy wasting my time..:-(
Join Date: Nov 2003
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It's interesting to see this in haruhi, from Information Theory I took last semester, just a brief summary and how it may relate to haruhi.
Shannon's Entropy is basically a way to quantize information. For discrete random variable, Entropy is H(x)=-sum(p(x)log2(p(x))) where p(x) is the probability mass function. Discrete random variable means the probability are set to be certain number at some discrete event. For example coin toss, if it's not biased, then Pr(X=0)=0.5, meaning the probability of X=0, let's say it's head, equals 0.5. The unit of entropy is bits (base 2). Entropy should be thought as the uncertainty of a probability event. The entropy of an event is highest when the probability is evenly distributed. For example an unbiased coin toss, in this case the uncertainty is highest if the coin is completely unbiased, therefore H is highest. BTW the entropy for continuous RV is slightly different, where you change summation to integration. Entropy is used to calculate the capacity of a transmission channel by C=max{I(x;y)}, p(x) where I is the mutual information between the output y and input x: I(x;y)=H(y)-H(y|x) H(y|x) means the entropy of y given x, so the meaning of the mutual information is, the difference between information of output y and information of output y given input x. A communication channel's capacity therefore can be understood as the maximum of mutual information between the output and input over all input distributions. We can also describe the capacity as channel's ability to reduce uncertainty of output given input. Capacity of the channel is important to determine the maximum rate possible for that channel. Entropy is also big part of coding theory. Coding is used primarily for data compression and encryption, and is major part of every computer geek's daily life. It can be proved that the optimal code cannot be better than the entropy of the source. What that means is, for any code, the minimal codeword length has to be greater or equal to entropy of the coding table. Now haruhi, since Yuki represent alien races which is Integrated Information Data entity. It makes perfect sense to have this formula in the OP. Now I feel such a nerd to type out boring stuff like this in an internet forum:P |
2006-04-27, 18:20 | Link #53 | |
Lore Hunter
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That's all I can say off the top of my head though - I'd have to look stuff up and think harder to satsifactorily answer you about Entropy. |
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2006-04-27, 18:45 | Link #54 |
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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But that would mean that either additional entropy ~randomness pops out of nowhere. I think information is viewed in this case as just a subset of the gross entropy... although such a thing as a decrease in global randomness would be a potential trigger for the backstory on the data entities's part. Since thermodynamic entropy cannot go 'down', yet information increased all of a sudden...
I am imagining this as a discontinuity right now...
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-27 at 20:15. |
2006-04-27, 19:15 | Link #55 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2006-04-27, 19:25 | Link #56 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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To put it in the most simplest terms (and crudest)....fecal matter happens, will always roll downhill, and will always happen at the worst possible time. |
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2006-04-27, 19:38 | Link #57 |
Name means little...
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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EDIT: Anh_Minh's point... is interesting. Quantum mechanic tosses out the notion of closed system alongside absolute vaccum... but a system can be relatively closed base on the limits of factors that can be observed by the point of reference. If an instantaneous increase of information is detected, Psieye would still have validity since observational constraint 'closes' the system to the eyes of ... data entities. It does however open the window to the alternate possibility that unforseened factors contributed to this sudden increase of gross entropy of the observed 'system' somehow, as that way 'thermodynamic' entropy doesn't have to decrease within the system... like having leaks in a tank.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2006-04-27 at 20:00. |
2006-04-27, 20:20 | Link #58 | |
Lore Hunter
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2006-04-28, 12:10 | Link #59 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Entropy is related to energy. Any time energy is expended, some of it is wasted and can't be used to create order. That's entropy. As people have said, the order of the universe as a whole decreases (closed system), but in local areas order can still increase (open to the rest of the universe).
The Sun is dissipating energy all the time, part of the universe's general increase of entropy (disorder). But the Earth is open to the Sun and receives some of that wasted energy, so the organization of things here can increase even while the order of the universe as a whole is decreasing. Life itself is a good example: by pouring energy onto the Earth, the Sun makes possible the increased organization that is life. We increase organization by wasting energy, lol. Read anything by Ilya Prigogine, who won the Nobel prize for developing theories about this. Order Out of Chaos is good for laymen like me. He shows how entropy can be a source of order. So maybe Haruhi is an energy source, like the Sun, lol.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2006-04-28 at 13:15. |
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