(L) Madoka Magica ~The different story~ manga discussion

[silvercover]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Also why did Mami kill herself?

a few months old but I guess I should give this a better answer.

mami killed herself due to the large amounts of pressure that she took up after sayaka and kyouko died, she basically felt these were her faults. I believe this is more than just dying to avoid being turned into a witch, she likely went after kyouko since she's holding her ribbon when she killed herself.

[Triple_R]

I recently read some of this.

I loved the first volume. That did a great job of fleshing out Mami and Kyouko's backstories, and more deeply exploring the relationship between the two of them.

But once the narrative switches to "present day" with Sayaka active as a magical girl, it quickly goes downhill to me. The dialogue and character thoughts descend into Whedon-esque psycho-babble and endless self-analysis and ridiculous self-loathing. Sayaka in particular becomes a painful caricature of herself, and she ultimately drags almost everybody else down with her; deep down into the black hole of breath-taking stupidity and silliness.

The middle portions of the manga have so many facepalm moments, so many moments where I honestly felt like slapping one or more of these characters (and given how much I usually like them, that is saying something). This manga makes most of the main cast characters out to be neurotic in the extreme, like they're freaking Batman rogues. I dropped it around Chapter 7, as I just couldn't take the character stupidity any more.


Volume 1 I consider excellent supplemental material to the anime, and invaluable reading for any Mami and/or Kyouko fan. But as for the rest... Blech. No thank you.

[maximilianjenus]

now you know how homura feels.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

now you know how homura feels.

I have to admit, you may well have a point.

I also have to admit that if I was a Sayaka-hater, I would feel almost totally vindicated by this manga. But as a big Sayaka-fan, my response is naturally quite different.

My mind has been greatly caught up in the mind-blowing character stupidity in the middle portions of this manga. I just can't get over it. I feel compelled to express myself more thoroughly here. In the spoiler space below, I will go into detail over my issues with the middle portions of this manga, and the character actions contained within. This will also involve comparisons to the anime, so for those who may have read the manga but haven't watched the anime, consider this a spoiler warning.

Spoiler for Triple_R's anime/manga critique and comparison:

First and foremost, Sayaka's decision to end her Puella Magi partnership with Mami is one of the stupidest decisions I have ever seen a fictional character, in any medium, make. It is stupid on so many levels that it's downright mind-boggling. I haven't been more mind-boggled by character stupidity since Lex Luthor threw away the US Presidency in a totally ridiculous attempt to eliminate Superman. But at least that was morbidly entertaining, and fits Luthor's insanely arrogant mind, while Sayaka's stupidity here is simply sad.

There are numerous basic, common sense reasons for Sayaka to want to maintain Puella Magi partnership with Mami:

1. In the event of facing a powerful witch, it's good to know you have a Puella Magi fighting alongside you. This is so basic and common sense in nature that I'd expect a 8 year old to understand it. So I'm not letting a character off the hook here just because she's 14 years old.

2. As Mami herself pointed out, Sayaka has saved her life multiple times already. Mami pointing this out isn't Mami "being kind", it's Mami pointing out pertinent, objective facts. If Sayaka cares at all about Mami's well-being then Sayaka should want to continue to provide Mami with support.

3. Mami and Sayaka do not have a major ideological division. They both want to fight witches and familiars. They both want to protect innocent people from witches and familiars. It made sense for Mami and Kyouko to split as the two had a deep and profound ideological division, including on the practical matter of whether or not to eliminate familiars. Meanwhile, Mami and Sayaka are of one accord when it comes to what a Puella Magi should be. Sayaka's moment of weakness pertaining to Hitomi does not change that.

4. Sayaka's healing ability, particularly how its portrayed in this manga, means that her abilities/powers are much more optimally utilized if Sayaka fights alongside other Puella Magi than if Sayaka fights alone. In other words, if Sayaka wants to feel useful, then she should want to continue fighting alongside Mami.


The Sayaka in the anime was isolated due to Mami's death, and perfectly understandable mistrust and/or dislike of Kyouko and Homura. But the Sayaka in this manga is not isolated like that, as Mami is still around and has been a very prudent and reliable Puella Magi senpai.


Sayaka effectively betraying Mami for no good reason is bad enough, but what makes Sayaka's manga characterization even worse is her breath-taking response to Kyousuke. Much to my surprise, we see in this manga Kyousuke give a thank you gift to Sayaka for all the times she visited him in the hospital. Here Kyousuke was friendly and kind towards Sayaka. Now, keep in mind that this Sayaka is not aware of the darker aspects of the Soul Gem. She has no reason to think that she's physically different than any other human, in other words. Sayaka clearly still loves Kyousuke and desires to be with him.

In a truly startling moment, Madoka takes decisive action in telling Kyousuke that his hand was healed by Sayaka! Equally startling is how Kyousuke shows no real skepticism over this, and asks Sayaka to explain further. It is readily apparent that Sayaka is on the very verge of romantic victory. There is little doubt that if Sayaka merely tells Kyousuke the truth that he will believe her, and may well feel such gratitude towards her that he would want to become her boyfriend.

So does Sayaka do what any remotely sensible person would do if in her situation, and simply tell the guy the truth? No, she instead manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory because of a ridiculous self-loathing hang-up over how she let down Hitomi once. It is truly groan-worthy...

I accept that a slight tendency towards self-loathing is a valid character trait/flaw for Sayaka, but this manga takes it to the point of Flanderization. Sayaka actively sabotages herself, and those around her, and for no good reason.

In the anime, Sayaka is faced with circumstances cruelly conspiring against her, hence her descent and fall is understandable and deeply pitiable. But here, plenty of things actually go Sayaka's way, and her fall was easily avoidable and preventable if she simply acted with just a modicum of intelligence and/or common sense. I don't mind characters making mistakes, or having flaws, but this manga goes to ridiculous extremes in this regard when it comes to Sayaka.


Now, while character stupidity is particularly problematic with Sayaka, it also afflicts Kyouko a lot.

Kyouko inexplicably goes back and forth between the following extremes:

1. Going out of her way to be a complete and utter jerk to Mami and Sayaka, saying some of the harshest comments imaginable given the circumstances, and clearly worsening the mental states for both Mami and Sayaka.

2. Showing deep concern for Mami and Sayaka's well-being if Kyouko feels that either is near-death.

This is similar, of course, to how Kyouko's approach to Sayaka changed in the anime narrative. But in the anime narrative, at least this was a straight-line character development that never reversed itself, and it was spurred at least in part by important plot reveals. Kyouko's sudden 180 towards Sayaka was one of Madoka Magica's weakest aspects, imo, but rushed as it was, at least it made some sense.

Here Kyouko's behavior is simply erratic and makes no real sense on the whole. Does she want to take Mami's territory, or doesn't she? Does she want to help Mami and Sayaka, or doesn't she? I have my doubts that even Kyouko herself knows the answers to these questions. Kyouko might as well be Two-Face, flipping coins to decide how she's going to approach Mami and/or Sayaka in any given scene. Just no consistency whatsoever. I'd be fine with either or, or with a straight-line development, but Kyouko flip-flopping back and forth makes her look inexplicable at best, and very mentally weak at worst.


Mami is largely fine, except she becomes an enabler for incredible amounts of BS coming from Kyouko and/or Sayaka. Instead of snapping Kyouko and Sayaka out of their ridiculous mental funks, Mami eventually gets dragged down into it herself.


Homura is largely fine, but has little presence in the work up to where I stopped reading. Her actions largely made sense, and I liked much of her dialogue. My only criticism here is that Homura seems to pay little direct attention to Madoka, which I find a bit odd.


Madoka is a ray of common sense sunshine in a morass of psycho-babble BS. What little dialogue she has is tremendously refreshing as it shows that somebody in this manga is capable of thinking straight and acting with at least a little bit of logic and rationality.


Anyway, I'll end my lengthy commentary here. It feels good to get this off my chest. Sorry to people who enjoyed this work thoroughly, but I honestly felt letdown by the middle portions of it. It just seems hellbent on achieving the same key plot points of the anime (Mami dead, Kyouko dead, Sayaka a witch, Madoka a magical girl, etc...) no matter how ridiculous the characters have to act to achieve that end. For something called "Madoka Magica ~The Different Story~", it ironically could benefit from being a lot more different than what it chose to be.

As a standalone prequel to the anime, Volume 1 is fantastic. I don't want to lose sight of that. But the rest of it is quite disappointing, imo.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Snip

Well, it's well known that word of god (Gen Urobuchi) asserts that Sayaka is screwed in any and every time-line, in Madoka Magica. Unfortunately, the manga had to keep to that standard, and even when it offered a set-up that should have saved Sayaka, I imagine it had no choice but to keep to the standard of "Sayaka is always doomed once she contracts", even if it requires astonishing and breathtaking levels of plot induced stupidity, and gigantic star-sized idiot balls.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Well, it's well known that word of god (Gen Urobuchi) asserts that Sayaka is screwed in any and every time-line, in Madoka Magica. Unfortunately, the manga had to keep to that standard, and even when it offered a set-up that should have saved Sayaka, I imagine it had no choice but to keep to the standard of "Sayaka is always doomed once she contracts", even if it requires astonishing and breathtaking levels of plot induced stupidity, and gigantic star-sized idiot balls.

Unless Homura becomes a drill seargant, Sayaka can't be saved (refer to PSP route)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Well, it's well known that word of god (Gen Urobuchi) asserts that Sayaka is screwed in any and every time-line, in Madoka Magica.

Then I guess Gen deserves some blame for the weaknesses in this manga. I can see the thematic value in Sayaka's fall in the main timeline of Madoka Magica, but insisting that she experiences that fall in every timeline is just silly, and really hurts the overall effectiveness of AU's like this one if its followed even when it doesn't make sense.

Thankfully, Oriko Magica was willing to buck Gen's assertion here, and hence its character actions made a helluva lot more sense.

[Kazu-kun]

Different Story was written by Hanokage, so it's to be expected that the characterization would feel different than when written by Gen. Besides, Hanokage himself admits he was kinda experimenting with "what if" scenarios, and that's probably why it feels a bit like a fanfic.

[NTFTH]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Well, it's well known that word of god (Gen Urobuchi) asserts that Sayaka is screwed in any and every time-line, in Madoka Magica.

I'm pretty sure the Word Of God only says she's doomed if she becomes a magical girl. If she doesn't she can avoid her fate like in Oriko Magica.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by NTFTH

I'm pretty sure the Word Of God only says she's doomed if she becomes a magical girl. If she doesn't she can avoid her fate like in Oriko Magica.

Ah, so that's it. I guess my memories weren't that accurate after all.

But still, if you think of it closely, all Puella Magis are doomed once they become a magical girl, before Ultimate Madoka.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

My second volume of Oriko is on it's way to me :3. Can't wait.

From what I've read of The Different Story it sounds like could be rather good, I'm a little disappointed with Kazumi Magica, not sure why other than maybe it just doesn't capture me like with how the original anime/manga and Oriko does.

[Kanon]

I loved what they did with Mami and Kyouko in this manga. I assume their backstory isn't canon though, is it?

[AuraTwilight]

Why wouldn't it be? They're clearly implied to have known each other in some form in the anime.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I loved what they did with Mami and Kyouko in this manga. I assume their backstory isn't canon though, is it?

I intend to take it as canon unless Gen or a higher-up at SHAFT says otherwise.

The backstory given to Mami/Kyouko in this was indeed excellent.

[BloodyKitty]

The backstory of Mami/Kyouko in the first volume is based on the Drama CD 3, which is considered canon material, since it was released along with the TV series' BDs. There are some little differences between the Drama CD version and this manga version of their backstory, but the gist is pretty much the same.

You guys can watch the drama CD 3 here, with sub:

I also recommend the first Drama CD, which told about Madoka's wish to become Puella Magi in the original timeline.

Drama CD 2 & 4 are some stories about the 5 girls in some alternate timelines, where fans can get a taste of how the 5 girls live in a more conventional mahou shoujo daily lives.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why wouldn't it be? They're clearly implied to have known each other in some form in the anime.

Because spin-off manga are usually not considered canon, unless the original creator himself states they are. We knew Mami and Kyouko were acquainted and that's about it, it was never implied they were almost as close as sisters.

Good to know this is actually canon. Makes me wish for Mami and Kyouko to get some moments together in future Madoka works. I like Mami x Kyouko better than Kyouko x Sayaka now, but I'm not against a threesome.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

-snip-

Spoiler for anime and manga spoilers:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1. In the event of facing a powerful witch, it's good to know you have a Puella Magi fighting alongside you. This is so basic and common sense in nature that I'd expect a 8 year old to understand it. So I'm not letting a character off the hook here just because she's 14 years old.

You mean like how Mami pushed away Homura in the anime, or how Kyouko and Sayaka picked a fight with one another despite having no person to protect or Grief Seeds to gain from it?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. As Mami herself pointed out, Sayaka has saved her life multiple times already. Mami pointing this out isn't Mami "being kind", it's Mami pointing out pertinent, objective facts. If Sayaka cares at all about Mami's well-being then Sayaka should want to continue to provide Mami with support.

The point is that in the heat of the moment, Sayaka no longer cared about Mami, just like how Sayaka pushed away Madoka in the anime. It is logically unsound, but when angry teenagers make up their mind, they tend not to accept other people's "help".

Originally Posted by Triple_R

3. Mami and Sayaka do not have a major ideological division. They both want to fight witches and familiars. They both want to protect innocent people from witches and familiars. It made sense for Mami and Kyouko to split as the two had a deep and profound ideological division, including on the practical matter of whether or not to eliminate familiars. Meanwhile, Mami and Sayaka are of one accord when it comes to what a Puella Magi should be. Sayaka's moment of weakness pertaining to Hitomi does not change that.

You keep going through this utilitarian approach when when a relationship is not necessarily built on (or breaks apart because of) that.
How about something much more simple: "You tick me off and I don't like or trust you at the moment, so get out of my sight".

I agree that it would be an issue if Sayaka was much more rational in the source material, but she wasn't. She pushed away Madoka in the anime, and it wasn't to protect her.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

4. Sayaka's healing ability, particularly how its portrayed in this manga, means that her abilities/powers are much more optimally utilized if Sayaka fights alongside other Puella Magi than if Sayaka fights alone. In other words, if Sayaka wants to feel useful, then she should want to continue fighting alongside Mami.

If your self-esteem is down the drain, fighting with others also means they're doing most of the work for you.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The Sayaka in the anime was isolated due to Mami's death, and perfectly understandable mistrust and/or dislike of Kyouko and Homura. But the Sayaka in this manga is not isolated like that, as Mami is still around and has been a very prudent and reliable Puella Magi senpai.

Again, there was also no reason for anime Sayaka to push away Madoka with her "you don't know how I feel!" outburst, but she did anyway.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka effectively betraying Mami for no good reason is bad enough, but what makes Sayaka's manga characterization even worse is her breath-taking response to Kyousuke. Much to my surprise, we see in this manga Kyousuke give a thank you gift to Sayaka for all the times she visited him in the hospital. Here Kyousuke was friendly and kind towards Sayaka. Now, keep in mind that this Sayaka is not aware of the darker aspects of the Soul Gem. She has no reason to think that she's physically different than any other human, in other words. Sayaka clearly still loves Kyousuke and desires to be with him.

In a truly startling moment, Madoka takes decisive action in telling Kyousuke that his hand was healed by Sayaka! Equally startling is how Kyousuke shows no real skepticism over this, and asks Sayaka to explain further. It is readily apparent that Sayaka is on the very verge of romantic victory. There is little doubt that if Sayaka merely tells Kyousuke the truth that he will believe her, and may well feel such gratitude towards her that he would want to become her boyfriend.

So does Sayaka do what any remotely sensible person would do if in her situation, and simply tell the guy the truth? No, she instead manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory because of a ridiculous self-loathing hang-up over how she let down Hitomi once. It is truly groan-worthy...

I think the idea was that Sayaka believes she cheated in winning Kyousuke's affection. Instead of Kyousuke liking her for who she is, she believes he is only doing it because he owes her for healing his arm.

I do completely agree that it's poor reasoning though. The only fair excuse would be that she doesn't want Kyousuke to get too involved with her life-threatening line of work, but she didn't take that route.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In the anime, Sayaka is faced with circumstances cruelly conspiring against her, hence her descent and fall is understandable and deeply pitiable. But here, plenty of things actually go Sayaka's way, and her fall was easily avoidable and preventable if she simply acted with just a modicum of intelligence and/or common sense. I don't mind characters making mistakes, or having flaws, but this manga goes to ridiculous extremes in this regard when it comes to Sayaka.

I disagree on this part, mainly because the central issue that led to Sayaka's fall in either story is still similar, and still easily avoidable in my opinion. She could have confessed to Kyousuke, and even if she didn't, she could have taken pride in the fact that she did indeed save him. Her entire issue with self-loathing and believing Kyousuke is also hard for me to sympathize with when you have both Mami and Kyouko losing their entire families and Homura going through everything she went through.

In fact, that's probably the primary complaint against her: her problems pale in comparison to the others even in the anime, yet she was also the worst in handling them.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyouko inexplicably goes back and forth between the following extremes:

1. Going out of her way to be a complete and utter jerk to Mami and Sayaka, saying some of the harshest comments imaginable given the circumstances, and clearly worsening the mental states for both Mami and Sayaka.

2. Showing deep concern for Mami and Sayaka's well-being if Kyouko feels that either is near-death.

Having high disdain for a person does not necessarily mean you hate the person enough to wish for their death. This applies to even the worst of bullies up to high school.

Being cruel is one thing, but being responsible for another person's death is an entirely different line that very few others would normally cross.

In fact, it would be even more unusual if Kyouko acted harshly to Mami and Sayaka even as they were dying.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is similar, of course, to how Kyouko's approach to Sayaka changed in the anime narrative. But in the anime narrative, at least this was a straight-line character development that never reversed itself, and it was spurred at least in part by important plot reveals. Kyouko's sudden 180 towards Sayaka was one of Madoka Magica's weakest aspects, imo, but rushed as it was, at least it made some sense.

Here Kyouko's behavior is simply erratic and makes no real sense on the whole. Does she want to take Mami's territory, or doesn't she? Does she want to help Mami and Sayaka, or doesn't she? I have my doubts that even Kyouko herself knows the answers to these questions. Kyouko might as well be Two-Face, flipping coins to decide how she's going to approach Mami and/or Sayaka in any given scene. Just no consistency whatsoever. I'd be fine with either or, or with a straight-line development, but Kyouko flip-flopping back and forth makes her look inexplicable at best, and very mentally weak at worst.

This is something that can be easily resolved if you read all the way through to the ending. Of course Kyouko isn't going to be developed well if you stop in the middle of a conflict.

I do agree however that Kyouko hasn't made up her mind yet, but I think that's the point. She's conflicted between her jaded past that shows her nothing good comes from being a goody-two-shoes and her true nature before her family tragedy that wants to help others.

[AuraTwilight]

Because spin-off manga are usually not considered canon, unless the original creator himself states they are.

That's a boring approach to things. I usually take the exact opposite: Stuff is canon unless stated otherwise.

[Triple_R]

My response to Shadow5YA is in Spoiler Space below. Don't read it if you don't want to be spoiled on the manga and/or the anime.

Spoiler for Anime and Manga spoilers:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

You mean like how Mami pushed away Homura in the anime,

When did Mami push away Homura in the anime? If anything, Mami tried to make amends with Homura in spite of how Homura had attempted to kill Kyubey. Mami obviously made an olive branch offer to Homura in Episode 2. Homura rejected it, so Mami stopped trying to make up with her.

or how Kyouko and Sayaka picked a fight with one another despite having no person to protect or Grief Seeds to gain from it?

From Kyouko's perspective, there was a Grief Seed to gain from it. The Grief Seed that would come from the escaped familiar that would later become a witch if the familiar was left alone. That familiar being the one that Sayaka had just been trying to eliminate, and still wanted to eliminate.

From Sayaka's perspective, there was people to protect here. The people that the familiar could conceivably victimize if the familiar wasn't eliminated.

Kyouko and Sayaka both had easily understandable and acceptable reasons for their conflict. It made perfect sense for them to come to a severe disagreement and blows.

There was no such good reasons for Sayaka to want to end her partnership with Mami.

The point is that in the heat of the moment, Sayaka no longer cared about Mami,

That's definitely not the impression I had. But even if you're right, there's no sensible buildup to this. We don't see Sayaka and Mami arguing a lot. We don't see them in some sort of dispute over what it means to be a good Puella Magi. In fact, the two seemed to be getting along great together.

just like how Sayaka pushed away Madoka in the anime.

Sayaka pushed Madoka away in the anime because Madoka was basically telling Sayaka how to do her job. And most people don't like being told how to do their job by people who aren't their boss or co-worker. This is especially true when you're being told how to do your job by someone who was offered the same job as you have, but refused to take it. It should not be hard to see how this can be very infuriating.

It is logically unsound, but when angry teenagers make up their mind, they tend not to accept other people's "help".

Where did Sayaka get angry with Mami?

You keep going through this utilitarian approach when when a relationship is not necessarily built on (or breaks apart because of) that.

This isn't just a basic friendship relationship. This is two people who have a shared responsibility together. And these two people both care about that shared responsibility. So it's just common sense to make choices that will help you both fulfill that responsibility.

How about something much more simple: "You tick me off and I don't like or trust you at the moment, so get out of my sight".

Again, I totally didn't get that vibe in Sayaka/Mami's relationship in this manga. Not at all. Not from either side.

I agree that it would be an issue if Sayaka was much more rational in the source material, but she wasn't.

I strongly disagree. I think you underestimate how rational Sayaka was in the source material. I can easily understand and explain everything she did in the source material. I definitely can't say the same of her actions in this manga.

She pushed away Madoka in the anime, and it wasn't to protect her.

She pushed Madoka away because she was pissed off with Madoka, and for understandable reason. I didn't see any reason for Sayaka to be pissed off with Mami in this manga. None at all.

If your self-esteem is down the drain, fighting with others also means they're doing most of the work for you.

Part of my argument is that there was no good reason for Sayaka's self-esteem to be that low to begin with. As I argued before, this manga flanderized her in this regard.

I disagree on this part, mainly because the central issue that led to Sayaka's fall in either story is still similar, and still easily avoidable in my opinion. She could have confessed to Kyousuke, and even if she didn't, she could have taken pride in the fact that she did indeed save him.

I disagree. It's reasonable for Sayaka to want to wait until Kyousuke is at least out of the hospital before confessing to him. But the very same night he leaves the hospital, she finds out about one of the hidden truths of Soul Gems, which made her feel like a zombie. "I'm no longer a human, so I can't confess to a human" makes some sense to me, though I admit it's overplayed in anime.

Here in this manga, Sayaka didn't have these factors to deal with. And the manga even gave her the perfect opportunity to confess to Kyousuke.

Her entire issue with self-loathing and believing Kyousuke is also hard for me to sympathize with when you have both Mami and Kyouko losing their entire families and Homura going through everything she went through.

Unrequited love often makes people do self-destructive things. It's a big deal to an old-fashioned romantic like Sayaka.

Mami and Kyouko certainly endured greater personal tragedy, but it doesn't seem like they had the same unrequited love issues.

Having high disdain for a person does not necessarily mean you hate the person enough to wish for their death.

It does make it odd to come rushing to their aid though.


In conclusion, I think my criticisms of this manga are legitimate.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's a boring approach to things. I usually take the exact opposite: Stuff is canon unless stated otherwise.

If stuff is useful in filling in blanks that you know are there (i.e. just from the anime alone, we know that Kyouko knew Mami, so the two most have spent at least some time together), then I tend to default to treating it as canon.

Otherwise, I'll take it or leave it on the basis of whether or not I like it.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My response to Shadow5YA is in Spoiler Space below. Don't read it if you don't want to be spoiled on the manga and/or the anime.

Spoiler for manga and anime spoilers:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When did Mami push away Homura in the anime? If anything, Mami tried to make amends with Homura in spite of how Homura had attempted to kill Kyubey. Mami obviously made an olive branch offer to Homura in Episode 2. Homura rejected it, so Mami stopped trying to make up with her.

No. Mami offered her a Grief Seed and attached the loaded statement, "Or are you the type that hates sharing with others?"

Homura refused, stating that she doesn't need it. Mami killed it, therefore she should reap the rewards. Considering Homura's primary objective, she meant what she said - nothing more, nothing less.

Mami is the one took Homura's response to mean she follows the same "every man for himself" ideology that Kyouko followed.


The following episode, Homura tried warning Mami about Charlotte. Mami responded by binding Homura with her ribbon magic. As we all know, going solo against Charlotte is what cost Mami her life.
The foolish part in this case isn't that Mami distrusted Homura (since Homura did little to help her image by keeping to herself all the time) but the fact that Mami felt the need to disable Homura entirely. Why go so far?
The only thing Mami had to lose by letting Homura go was the potential threat of her taking the Grief Seed. Unlike Kyouko, that shouldn't be a major issue to Mami since she is willing to share. Otherwise, Mami had everything to gain by letting Homura help out. Charlotte appeared on school grounds, meaning the sooner they take out the Witch, the less likely Madoka, Sayaka, and any other students would get harmed in the process. Mami was being reckless for the sake of her reliable senpai image and paid dearly for it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

From Kyouko's perspective, there was a Grief Seed to gain from it. The Grief Seed that would come from the escaped familiar that would later become a witch if the familiar was left alone. That familiar being the one that Sayaka had just been trying to eliminate, and still wanted to eliminate.

From Sayaka's perspective, there was people to protect here. The people that the familiar could conceivably victimize if the familiar wasn't eliminated.

That's a fair point... only for their first confrontation. In the following episode, Kyouko provokes Sayaka into another fight on a bridge before Madoka stops it by tossing out Sayaka's Soul Gem. There was no Grief Seed to gain or people to protect in this case. They weren't chasing or monitoring a Witch or familiar.

It was a pure grudge match based on ideals because Sayaka couldn't stand to see Kyouko spit on her ideals, and Kyouko couldn't stand to see another person who was as naïve as she used to be.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyouko and Sayaka both had easily understandable and acceptable reasons for their conflict. It made perfect sense for them to come to a severe disagreement and blows.

There was no such good reasons for Sayaka to want to end her partnership with Mami.

That's definitely not the impression I had. But even if you're right, there's no sensible buildup to this. We don't see Sayaka and Mami arguing a lot. We don't see them in some sort of dispute over what it means to be a good Puella Magi. In fact, the two seemed to be getting along great together.

That's definitely not the impression I had. But even if you're right, there's no sensible buildup to this. We don't see Sayaka and Mami arguing a lot. We don't see them in some sort of dispute over what it means to be a good Puella Magi. In fact, the two seemed to be getting along great together.

A witch possessed Hitomi. Sayaka hesitated to the point of not participating in the fight at all. As the Witch attacked, Mami covered for Sayaka, sustaining severe injuries. Combined with Kyouko's taunting, it should be easy to see why Sayaka felt she was a liability to Mami.

Later, Sayaka also confesses that she knew full well that the Witch possessed Hitomi and did nothing because a part of her wanted to see Hitomi die since in this manga, Hitomi told Sayaka about her plans to confess to Kyousuke already.

Like before her transformation to a Witch in the anime, Sayaka knew she was a hypocrite. From her perspective, she was as bad as she believed Kyouko to be.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka pushed Madoka away in the anime because Madoka was basically telling Sayaka how to do her job. And most people don't like being told how to do their job by people who aren't their boss or co-worker. This is especially true when you're being told how to do your job by someone who was offered the same job as you have, but refused to take it. It should not be hard to see how this can be very infuriating.

Sayaka was actively refusing to use Grief Seeds to cleanse her Soul Gem, even if those Grief Seeds are ones she fought and earned herself.

Madoka wasn't even lecturing Sayaka about her ideals or how to fight. She was telling Sayaka to stay healthy. It shouldn't be hard to see why Madoka was worried to death after Sayaka comes back from the Elsa Maria fight without any regard to the damage done to her body.
It's like a supermodel falling out of stardom because she developed anorexia, and her normal friends and family tell her to eat. Taking "it's your fault!" or "you don't know what I've been through!" is not an acceptable answer.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Where did Sayaka get angry with Mami?

This isn't just a basic friendship relationship. This is two people who have a shared responsibility together. And these two people both care about that shared responsibility. So it's just common sense to make choices that will help you both fulfill that responsibility.

It's not a shared responsibility and it never was a shared responsibility. They are all characters with their own goals and motives. While Mami and Sayaka's ideal's are similar, they are not the same. Mami wants companionship while Sayaka wants "justice".

However, Sayaka's notion of justice is so idealized and fragile that she can't even live up to her own standards. That's why she calls herself a fool in the anime, and why leaving Hitomi to die in this manga eats at her from the inside out.
In an unfair world, she is too fragile.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Again, I totally didn't get that vibe in Sayaka/Mami's relationship in this manga. Not at all. Not from either side.

You misunderstand. It was an example of a reason that is entirely human, but not necessarily rational. See below.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I strongly disagree. I think you underestimate how rational Sayaka was in the source material. I can easily understand and explain everything she did in the source material. I definitely can't say the same of her actions in this manga.

Explaining and understanding human actions does not necessarily make those reasons "rational". We humans may have the capacity for rational thought, but that does not mean the reason behind every action was in fact formulated rationally. For example, an smoker with lung cancer can have another cigarette, and we can explain the reason behind the person's actions as an addiction. That however does not mean the person was thinking properly with the goal of benefit in mind.
Because of human nature, to understand humans (or characters with an equivalent human nature) means acknowledging that sometimes they are not of sound mind.

I can understand and explain most things in either medium. This does not necessarily mean I agree or even accept the reasons.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She pushed Madoka away because she was pissed off with Madoka, and for understandable reason. I didn't see any reason for Sayaka to be pissed off with Mami in this manga. None at all.

She can be pissed at herself, and then that self-loathing and frustration can spread to everyone else. That does tend to happen.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Part of my argument is that there was no good reason for Sayaka's self-esteem to be that low to begin with. As I argued before, this manga flanderized her in this regard.

I think feeling guilty and nearly responsible for an innocent person's death is a fair reason. I don't think it justifies exacerbating it with even more negativity, but it's natural for some people to feel that way.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. It's reasonable for Sayaka to want to wait until Kyousuke is at least out of the hospital before confessing to him. But the very same night he leaves the hospital, she finds out about one of the hidden truths of Soul Gems, which made her feel like a zombie. "I'm no longer a human, so I can't confess to a human" makes some sense to me, though I admit it's overplayed in anime.

Here in this manga, Sayaka didn't have these factors to deal with. And the manga even gave her the perfect opportunity to confess to Kyousuke.

In this manga, Sayaka had to deal with the guilt of nearly leaving a friend to die over love.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Unrequited love often makes people do self-destructive things. It's a big deal to an old-fashioned romantic like Sayaka.

Mami and Kyouko certainly endured greater personal tragedy, but it doesn't seem like they had the same unrequited love issues.

Kyouko had unrequited love. She made her wish for the father she loved so dearly, and in response, not only did he hate her, he tried killing everyone in the family over it. Are you really disregarding this just because it's familial love and not adolescent love?
Homura also had to deal with the "no longer human" issue. You should understand why it's harder to sympathize with Sayaka when other characters dealt with similar issues more constructively.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It does make it odd to come rushing to their aid though.

Kyouko does not hate Mami or Sayaka. She hates the ideals they hold that already betrayed her once. She hates her old self for being foolishly naïve, and she sees that old self in Sayaka. This is why she picks on them, and why when push comes to shove, she wants to save them in the end.

Even if Kyouko wants to abandon her old ideals, she never could entirely. As I stated before, she is at odds with herself, and it takes Madoka's encouragement before she returns to her true self.