Romance in Macross

[MaiHikari]

Very insightful comment Swampstorm! You lit the lightbulb. Unfortunately, I must pass my reps around before I can rep you.

I also think Alto's story is the key to his character. I am a Sheryl shipper, but I have always been looking for the missing element. I can see why Sheryl loves Alto, but I haven't been able to pinpoint why Alto also feels the same way (besides her general awesomeness, of course). I needed the series to show me how/why Sheryl changed and challenged Alto. Then Sheryl became sick and Alto returned home and as Alto's story is revealed little by little, I saw how her willpower had rubbed off on him. He managed to return home and talk about his past, viewing his father in a different light, all of which he wasn't able to do before. That has changed thanks to Sheryl, thanks to him meeting her. Up until then, he's been running away from his past, joining SMS to protect Ranka, killing Vajras were all the things he did to make up for the loss of his mother.

[daimonth]

Originally Posted by Seifall

She didn't developped the stockholm syndrom since this term is used to designate a propensity of the hostage who share ..... snip

So what you are saying is that the story have no correlation to what is happening in Frontier, other than that little point about Sakura killing the rapist who also killed her father. Which you don't agree and is not even in the similar situation in that the characters are way different.

[Marina Ismail]

Originally Posted by Urei

I'm kind of suprised. Didn't expect Ranka will get more votes for Ai-kun pairing then the Alto one. If I'm not mistaken it's fourth most popular currently

I knew it would grow popular. Ranka lost her virginity to Ai-Kun in ep 21, remember? lol

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000...Large%2023.jpg <-- proof!

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Marina Ismail

I knew it would grow popular. Ranka lost her virginity to Ai-Kun in ep 21, remember? lol

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000...Large%2023.jpg <-- proof!

If there's something in her womb, she lost her virginity a long time ago...

[Marina Ismail]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

If there's something in her womb, she lost her virginity a long time ago...

Nah, that's just the jiz.... nvm. Lol

[aneeshadc]

I've been thinking abt ep 23 & I've revised my earlier impressions of alto. Alto being aware of everything just makes him so much more interesting than before, gives him a lot of depth that I didnt realize he possessed. Somehow, he's catapulted into my second favourite MF character after Sheryl(Sry Michael, klan, he usurped ur place, but dont worry, ur both rite after him). I'm going to try & sort out my jumbled thoughts & attempt to figure him out a bit.

First of all , in Ep 23, I found it quite telling that he begins to think abt ranka soon after his talk with yasaburo, wherin yasaburo tells alto that he's an actor & he's been performing the actions desired from him all this time. I couldnt help but connect all of the early ranka/alto interactions & apply the performing-actions-desired-from-him logic to them.

It just fits, sounds to me like he's been playing the role of her protector because she needed him to & also because he needed a reason other than running away from home to justify his actions of joining SMS. He needed an outlet for his frustrations & Ranka unknowingly provided it for him. Not to say that he didnt genuinely like her or anything, I'm sure he did, but there were still a lot of underlying reasons for Why he seemed to gravitate more towards ranka.

Even events at Galia IV drives this fact home to me- What with the acting is in your blood flashback during his fight with the big bad Zentraedi & Michael telling him to consider Ranka's feelings, him contemplating Michael's words when in the plane with ranka soon after which, we see him being overly nice to Ranka. There was no reason to play the scenes out this way if we werent meant to pick on this. It also explains why most of us felt that the alto/ranka interaction was superficial & purposely ochestrated to accelerate the LT. Then the whole rescue arc puts him in the role of her protector again but this role gets stolen by Brera, consequently leaving him without a camouflaged reason to fight anymore.

Thats probably Why Brera always seemed to rub him the wrong way. This is probably when he seriously begins to second guess himself & his reasons for joining SMS. Ep 18 shows his hesitancy & reluctance to cast himself solely as ranka's protector. Its probably also when he realizes that he doesnt hate Frontier as much as he thought he did. Ep 20, he asks ranka to sing for the people of frontier, then Ep 21, where he is willing to use Ranka as bait to save fronteir, albeit reluctantly, Ep 22, he stays behind to defend frontier, granted Sheryl was probably his primary reason for staying behind & then finally in Ep 23 we see him willing to consider killing Ranka to save Frontier. He starts out hating Frontier because of lack of a real sky to being willing to go to any lengths to defend & protect his homeland.

Alto is really turning out to be a delightfully complex character. Another thing, one line which ranka sings in the lion song seems to confirm that alto is playing the role of her protector. She says something like- "The key to the door you protect is a lie" or something to that effect. It also kind of makes sense when you think abt it, because almost all of the Ranka/Alto interactions have been I believe, purposefully presented to us as ranka calling/asking for help/advice & Alto delivering to the best of his abilities.

I find it hard to apply the same performing-actions-desired-from-him logic to past Alto/sheryl interactions ( except for Ep 23 dinner scene- I'll touch on that later) because alto's almost always in tsun-tsun mode when he's with her, isnt overly nice to her & tends to disagree/argue/ banter with her a lot. She tends to throw him off balance & out of character most of the time which is why I dont think he's playing any role at all when he's with her. I think we get rare glimpses of his real self when he's around her- like in the shelter scene in ep 3 he admits in anger that as he is he doesnt think he's capable of offering protection, in ep 5 his insight into why he's drawn to fly like sheryl & ranka are drawn to sing, in ep 6 when he admits to hating Frontier because there's no real sky, ep 9 sheryl asks him on the phone why he joined SMS & soon after he thinks abt his father & reiterates that he's not running away, Ep 19, he gets mad at sheryl because she's lying to herself, seems to have taken this a little too personally, maybe its cos he's been lying to himself as well, I dont know,.........etc, etc.

I think he's been showing us more of his real self from Ep 18 onwards in bits & pieces. Beginning of Ep 20 is the only time he isnt tsun-tsun with Sheryl & I have to wonder if he was just playing a role that was desired from him? Then again, I dont think he was, because he wasnt exactly playing along with her, was he? She wanted him to stop trying to convince her to sing but he was intent on trying to convince her otherwise. Then, he did show some real emotion in ep 21 when he seemed angry at himself for being willing to let Ranka be used as bait.

Ep 22, I felt, was when he finally dropped his actor's mask completely & displayed real raw emotion/ grief at the prospect of losing Sheryl for a few genuine moments. In contrast though, I felt like the dinner scene in Ep 23, while absolutely cute to watch, did have a kind of forced feel to it. It did have its real & naturally genuine moments but overall there was a general atmosphere of forced cheerfulness at times. And, No, I dont think Ranka had anything to do with it at all.

The vibe I got from the two of them was that they were forcing themselves to act normally for the sake of the other & trying not to think abt the fact that she didnt have long to live, not to mention sheryl probably thought that he was with her because he pitied her. They were both playing roles & werent completely being themselves & its interesting to note that both seemed to sense the change in the other but still couldnt grasp the real reason why they were behaving differently from usual.

I dont know hw much of what I've written is actually true, or whether I'm viewing everything through my shipper goggles but it fills in a lot of the missing pieces for me & definitely makes me appreciate alto more, when I couldnt figure out hw he could be so dense & clueless before when he was really anything but. I'm really hoping I got him pegged rite, I'm loving this new/real Alto,

Oh & I predict he'll go back to acting at the end of the series, though I do oh so prefer him as a pilot.

[Marina Ismail]

Make her cry one more time Alto... I dare you. I'll raise your death flag up so high, you'll be flying around in your "endless sky" in space with your pals the vajra. <_<

[Urei]

I find it hard to apply the same performing-actions-desired-from-him logic to past Alto/sheryl interactions ( except for Ep 23 dinner scene- I'll touch on that later) because alto's almost always in tsun-tsun mode when he's with her, isnt overly nice to her & tends to disagree/argue/ banter with her a lot. She tends to throw him off balance & out of character most of the time which is why I dont think he's playing any role at all when he's with her.

Yes, that's completely true. We get to see two polarities with our heroines. A helpless girl desperately in need of a protector and a strong willed woman who doesn't let others decide her own actions. I agree with you that Ranka was the first person who made an 'impression' on Alto. Right from the very beginning both of them fell into their respective roles. Even though Alto didn't know her the first time they met he still offered her the same kind of help he did later on. Ranka's character complements with someone who could be the exact opposite of her. Thus, she draws people who are willing to offer her help. The feelings might develop from sympathy or even pity but nothing permanent will ever be created. That is true unless the other party has a strong submissive tendencies and Alto is not such person.

At first Alto was, as even he stated, drawn to her with the need of protection. Ranka demanded that and he was willing to offer it. As we later learn it was a direct result of his lack of proper resolve. Justification of his own actions was only this simple at first. World is a very harsh place though. Alto realized his own mistake as the time passed. I like to think that his 'sky' that he believed was true as only as strong as the fragile Frontier.

Sheryl on the other hand never demanded things Ranka did. She was fine on her own. As you pointed it out aneeshadc, there was no actor - heroine interaction between them. Even if it was rocky at first it always had a fresh feel of lack of masks. On the contrary, as much as Sheryl never required protection, she sough companionship. Alto being a honest person offered her a fair share of quality interaction. As we know she never got to experience such things earlier. I believe that with time Sheryl's needs developed from a need of a friend to a need of a person to love. Alto on the other hand could not satisfy those needs because he lacked the real grasp on his motivation. I believe that he is still not ready to offer her what she needs. Still, all obstacles in doing so were removed during past few episodes.

I dont know hw much of what I've written is actually true, or whether I'm viewing everything through my shipper goggles but it fills in a lot of the missing pieces for me & definitely makes me appreciate alto more, when I couldnt figure out hw he could be so dense & clueless before when he was really anything but. I'm really hoping I got him pegged rite, I'm loving this new/real Alto,

Oh, don't you dare to question your own words especially when you pour your own heart out like this. I agree with you completely. You did one hell of a good job here. Congrats

[Teletha]

Originally Posted by aneeshadc

It just fits, sounds to me like he's been playing the role of her protector because she needed him to & also because he needed a reason other than running away from home to justify his actions of joining SMS. He needed an outlet for his frustrations & Ranka unknowingly provided it for him. Not to say that he didnt genuinely like her or anything, I'm sure he did, but there were still a lot of underlying reasons for Why he seemed to gravitate more towards ranka.

I agree completely with that. Like you said, not to say he didn't like her but he was also using her as a reason to fly. When Brera showed up is when he started to have doubts about himself. He did like her, a lot I'd even say but that like wasn't based on them growing or changing.

Thats probably Why Brera always seemed to rub him the wrong way. This is probably when he seriously begins to second guess himself & his reasons for joining SMS. Ep 18 shows his hesitancy & reluctance to cast himself solely as ranka's protector. Its probably also when he realizes that he doesnt hate Frontier as much as he thought he did. Ep 20, he asks ranka to sing for the people of frontier, then Ep 21, where he is willing to use Ranka as bait to save fronteir, albeit reluctantly, Ep 22, he stays behind to defend frontier, granted Sheryl was probably his primary reason for staying behind & then finally in Ep 23 we see him willing to consider killing Ranka to save Frontier. He starts out hating Frontier because of lack of a real sky to being willing to go to any lengths to defend & protect his homeland.

Yep. I always thought the Brera jealously was less about being jealous about Ranka spending time with someone else and more about Alto being pissed off at himself for his inability to protect her. I never bought for a second Brera/Alto/Ranka was any type of love triangle because Alto's issues with Brera had little to do with Ranka. When she no longer needed him to protect her, he got frustrated and doubted himself.

I find it hard to apply the same performing-actions-desired-from-him logic to past Alto/sheryl interactions ( except for Ep 23 dinner scene- I'll touch on that later) because alto's almost always in tsun-tsun mode when he's with her, isnt overly nice to her & tends to disagree/argue/ banter with her a lot. She tends to throw him off balance & out of character most of the time which is why I dont think he's playing any role at all when he's with her. I think we get rare glimpses of his real self when he's around her- like in the shelter scene in ep 3 he admits in anger that as he is he doesnt think he's capable of offering protection, in ep 5 his insight into why he's drawn to fly like sheryl & ranka are drawn to sing, in ep 6 when he admits to hating Frontier because there's no real sky, ep 9 sheryl asks him on the phone why he joined SMS & soon after he thinks abt his father & reiterates that he's not running away, Ep 19, he gets mad at sheryl because she's lying to herself, seems to have taken this a little too personally, maybe its cos he's been lying to himself as well, I dont know,.........etc, etc.

I think they both throw each other off balance. She does impulsive things and has to try to turn it around to mean nothing (like when she kissed him) and he drops whatever role he is playing. I'd say Alto x Sheryl is more real because there is no pretense there. She's not asking for anything and he's not being forced to act out anything when he's with her. He can be selfish, or tsun tsun or stupid Alto without worrying. Ranka was always in take mode, but he was always willing to do it so you can't fault her. But to be fair, there are a few places Alto is genuinely talking to Ranka. When she first sung Aimo for him and when she left with Brera are the two that stick out to me. The beginning and ending of their relationship pretty much.

The vibe I got from the two of them was that they were forcing themselves to act normally for the sake of the other & trying not to think abt the fact that she didnt have long to live, not to mention sheryl probably thought that he was with her because he pitied her. They were both playing roles & werent completely being themselves & its interesting to note that both seemed to sense the change in the other but still couldnt grasp the real reason why they were behaving differently from usual.

That's pretty obvious. Alto is putting up a brave face for her and she is acting like everything is okay. He'd like to do more for her you can tell, but she's still keeping him at a distance. She won't give in totally because she doubts the reason he is even with her.

I think you are fair. Great tl;dr. I actually don't see him acting full time. I think he likes to fly regardless. He will continue to fly always. Once he knows his true reason for flying then he'll be happier. I kind of hope Alto and Sheryl are the flying and performing duo somewhere after the show is over.

[aneeshadc]

@ urei, teletha
Thanks guys, I really wanted 2nd opinions cos I wasnt sure if I was on the right track.
Oh & btw what does tl;dr mean?

[Paul Hausser]

Originally Posted by aneeshadc

@ urei, teletha
Thanks guys, I really wanted 2nd opinions cos I wasnt sure if I was on the right track.
Oh & btw what does tl;dr mean?

Too long, didn't read. Originates, as fas as I know, from 4chan.

[aneeshadc]

Ouch! kay, thnx.^_^

[indr0008]

cheers to all who favor VF-171 more than VF-25!

[KiNA]

@ Teletha - What tl;dr?.. You did read the whole thing in the end

[Teletha]

Yes, I did read the whole thing! But every Sheryl fan does a tl;dr post for the forum. We talk a lot....

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Teletha

Yes, I did read the whole thing! But every Sheryl fan does a tl;dr post for the forum. We talk a lot....

You can't help but to read the whole post, especially if it has someones personal opinion stated so clearly

I've been thinking abt ep 23 & I've revised my earlier impressions of alto. Alto being aware of everything just makes him so much more interesting than before, gives him a lot of depth that I didnt realize he possessed.

Have mercy, I'll read anything that starts with Alto analysis

[KiNA]

I read it 3 times.. because I read those quote in your posts as well :x

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Teletha

Yes, I did read the whole thing! But every Sheryl fan does a tl;dr post for the forum. We talk a lot....

That´s what I love about you all. Sheryl fans generally can articulate their opinion in a clear manner, and get the details right.

[Swampstorm]

@aneeshadc: That's exactly the sort of reasoning that you need to use with Alto. You picked up on the phrase "running away" and traced it back through the series. There are other parts of the conversation in episode twenty-three that you can do the same for.

That being said, I think that you should be careful in how you relate this idea to Sheryl. It's not quite as simple as 'Alto puts on an act around Ranka but is himself around Sheryl (/shipping goggles)'.

Consider episode six, for example. While the backstage conversation between Alto and Sheryl does draw out some of the inner fears and concerns of both characters, Alto puts on a bit of a show towards the end. The manner in which he accepts Sheryl's "lady's favour" and dashes at full tilt to defend Galaxy is very much in line with his role as a "hero".

Aside 1: (Before we go any further, I should point out that not every 'heroic' action on Alto's part is necessarily an act; what matters is how he goes about it. If you want to see the two different approaches contrasted with each other, refer to episode fourteen.)

Aside 2: (Were you to view that last scene in terms of the triangle alone, you might reach the conclusion that Alto has a preference for Sheryl in these episodes, only to switch over to Ranka later on, and so on. This is why he's sometimes mistakenly described as "indecisive".)

It's not that Alto simply decided to view Ranka in one way and Sheryl in another; he initially used the same approach with both girls. So why did his relationships with the two girls develop differently? (This, by the way, is where Sheryl's statement "I guess I knew it all along" fits in; again, episode fourteen might give you some insight into the difference that she sees.)

This isn't a question that you can just jump into answering, even though it might seem like it has a simple answer. While Alto does manage to play the hero in episode seven, his actions also come along with unintended consequences. This happens in more than one occasion where Sheryl is concerned (when?); if you watch this pattern, then you might get a better feel for the role that Sheryl plays with respect to Alto's character development.

The best part is - we're yet to delve into the shipping side of things!

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear from the earlier comments, tl;dr is always a complement, as far as skullfairy members are concerned. Keep tl;dr-ing!

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

@aneeshadc:It's not that Alto simply decided to view Ranka in one way and Sheryl in another; he initially used the same approach with both girls. So why did his relationships with the two girls develop differently? (This, by the way, is where Sheryl's statement "I guess I knew it all along" fits in; again, episode fourteen might give you some insight into the difference that she sees.)

This isn't a question that you can just jump into answering, even though it might seem like it has a simple answer. While Alto does manage to play the hero in episode seven, his actions also come along with unintended consequences. This happens in more than one occasion where Sheryl is concerned (when?); if you watch this pattern, then you might get a better feel for the role that Sheryl plays with respect to Alto's character development.

The best part is - we're yet to delve into the shipping side of things!

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear from the earlier comments, tl;dr is always a complement, as far as skullfairy members are concerned. Keep tl;dr-ing!

He treated Sheryl as a buddy, always arguing with her, more like the way he treated Micheal and Luca. He treated Ranka in a protective way, and we saw in episode 23 why he was so protective of her. You are right that earlier he treated Sheryl the same way too(when he saved her the first time). After he realized that Sheryl didn't need any protection by the way she acted when they got trapped in the hatch during the Vajra attack in the earlier episodes. Now that Sheryl is sick, he is attacted to sheryl again because she needs protection. The problem is that Sheryl even when she is sick, doesn't like to play that role. Can Sheryl live with a guy that always want to protect her even after she gets cured?