2018-10-11, 16:25 | Link #381 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Why are you so obsessed about the fact the rape has any impact on the character of Goblin Slayer? The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth. It is a much more straightforward portrayal of the goblins, compared to other fictions that show them like butt monkey mooks of a fantasy story. Ironically, the "outrage" about the episode validates the intention of the author: those scenes were there to give a sense of dread, disgust, etc regarding the goblins. Even if they are lvl1 critters that barely give any EXP or gold in a game, they are inherently vicious creature, hellbent to torment other races if they have the opportunity.
Goblin Slayer isn't even painted as a "DARK AVENGER" in this episode. He plainly does his job as his moniker/title implies. He was extremely methodic and barely show any emotion. GS didn't particularly react to any of the rookie demise whatsoever. He was basically Doomguy/Master Chief/Batman: extremely efficient, borderline mechanical in his actions. Does he have a grudge against Goblins, like Bruce Wayne for criminals? Who knows, but his backstory has nothing to do with the scenes presented in episode 1. I'm not even sure why you think the rape scene had any impact on his character, while it was mostly for the goblins, and the Priestess to a certain extent.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2018-10-11 at 16:40. |
2018-10-11, 16:39 | Link #382 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2. I'm fairly certain that the author has no such pretentions. It isn't about underlining anybody's importance, whether it's the victims' suffering, the Goblins' cruelty or Goblin Slayer's heroism. It's all just... things that happen. Terrible as they are, goblins aren't the worst threat to humanity. Goblin Slayer isn't some Chosen One. |
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2018-10-11, 16:56 | Link #383 | |||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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And obviously the rape is used to characterise the goblins are particularly evil but my point was that the underlying reasoning (their biology) just comes off as a cheap excuse used to justify it's edgy existence when it otherwise wouldn't make sense. Like I said, there's no thematic reasoning behind it. It's just used to make the story dark and edgy. Quote:
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2. Like I said, specifically creating characters just to be raped and them tossed away once you've delivered such a message isn't going to convince people. I'm not thinking "terrible things happen because it's a cruel world": I'm thinking "terrible things happen because the author wants it to".
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2018-10-11, 16:59 | Link #384 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Personally I didn't really care much about the rape. But I'm guessing what he's saying is, rape is a tricky thing to use in fiction because it is a cheap emotional manipulator plot device. Not to belittle actual rape, I'm talking rape as a device to tell stories in fiction, kinda like how amnesia is viewed as an overused device. I have read in writing advice forum somewhere that as general rule, you can think of writers that depicted rape as a plot device as a third rate writer as a default. You can further examine that author based on how they actually used it, but the fact they actually used it is prone to higher standards of scrutiny. Which is why the general advice was "if you can portray something without rape, then don't". I'm guessing Haak is saying there is currently nothing about the rape in Goblin Slayer that justifies it's usage as a plot device that can't be portrayed by something else. CMIIW.
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2018-10-11, 17:11 | Link #385 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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-It is used as a plot device to stir emotions to the reader, just like any other abject action or death of an important character. -in GS case, violence and other elements portraying the goblins have an obvious purpose: that while people always think about Demon Lord, Dragons and other mythical monsters as threat for humanity, a more simpler but widespread enemy is often disregarded because "they are at the bottom of the evil ranks" -The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth. You brought the "logical thematic" here, and that there wasn't any in such case. And that's where I disagreed: that plot device does work and falls within the thematic that "goblins are nasty critters", nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing special aside of portraying the archenemy under a very specific light for the purpose of the story at large, not just to make GS completely crazy about them. Even if we were to ignore the extra justification of the author for this act, I don't see why it is so alien to have goblins doing that, hence why I mentioned D&D. Frankly, the subject of crossbreeding is hardly anything new in this kind of fiction, moreso when the relevant race doesn't care about others by a long shot. Quote:
I'm pretty certain I've mentioned elements exclusively brought by episode 1, except the breeding issue which was initially pointed out by people like Obelisk. In general, such scene and everything else that pertains goblins (cruelty and whatnot) pretty much define them on a world building aspect. That goes beyond to whatever happened to GS. That's why I disagree with your claim that such scene was done to portray GS as a dark avenger or whatever you believe he is. Rather, that plot part was driving a very simple point about the antagonists of the series. I really doubt most would have read the interview and other notes of the author regarding the LN before watching the anime. Goblins are nasty and do not so nice stuff, noobs get stomped for their stupidity, and then we have a specialist. That's all there is to it. And frankly, I don't see why rape victims MUST remain part of the cast to make the "rape worthwhile". The act itself has been done, it doesn't matter if that character survives and joins the main team in such case. Here, it pretty much tells you that no one is safe and that adventurers are also at the receiving end of such atrocities if they screw up. There wouldn't be really any additional value to have the Female Fighter to join the Priestess and GS on the journey at all. In fact, it adds another point to that situation: victims may not have the will to continue the adventure after such traumatic experience. The Female fighter had a very precise role here, and while I can't say if it was the author intent all along, my initial impression of the anime before even reading the manga is that 1) shit happens and escalet quickly 2) villagers aren't the only potential victims. That procelain party was pretty much sacrificed narratively to explain that even adventurers fall prey to goblins. It wouldn't really resonate well with the audience if we were told by the priestess that "well, shit happens" without seeing first hand what kind of problem could happen with newbies against goblins.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2018-10-11 at 17:30. |
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2018-10-11, 18:01 | Link #386 | ||||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Not that it matters because the episode was clearly portraying him as a dark avenger. If you want to look at these images and tell me with a straight face that they aren't trying to portray Goblin Slayer as a Dark Avenger then we might as well be done here because it's obvious to me that you aren't being honest with me. Quote:
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2018-10-11, 18:31 | Link #387 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Honestly, I don't see the difference of Titans munching nameless humans in Shingeki to be less contrived than girls being raped by goblins, with your criteria. Both pretty much convey the situation at hand by using cannon fodder in term of narration. The former portray the precarious state of humanity at large, the latter expose the cruelty of the goblins past simply "looting and murder". Both are pretty much legit plot device that serve for their respective series at large. Of course, I don't expect anyone to enjoy or accept rape as a narrative plot device, but my point is that it isn't gratuitious considering it fits the theme of the goblins as antagonists of the series. Could the author do without it? Certainly. But since he did, he pretty much hammered the evil part further, just like any sadistic display of the antagonists for other series. Quote:
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My honest reaction to that terminator scene was pretty much the fact that he loathed their existence and that children must not be spared. That discussion with the Priestess pretty much exposed his intent to slaughter them, regardless the circumstances, be it good or bad goblin. But the first episode didn't really portray GS as being outraged by the fate of the porcelain adventurers. I would agree if the scene had any visible impact on GS (so to trigger some empathy with the audience who probably hate the goblin guts for this scene). But it really didn't brought anything to his already methodical extermination. That's the very reason why I disagree with the assumption the rape scene was there to push a characterization on him, considering GS himself barely reacted to that.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2018-10-11 at 18:57. |
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2018-10-11, 18:54 | Link #388 | ||
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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The girls were kidnapped, reason = the gobs are evil. The girls were raped, reason = the gobs need to breed and of course they are evil. The noob adventurers were slaughtered, reason = they were overconfident, inexperienced, and unprepared. I think those reasons are good enough, and not just because the "author wants terrible things to happen".
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2018-10-11, 19:09 | Link #389 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
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It's probably gotten to the stage in this discussion chain where (short of finding actual examples and posting them from other medium, which, for obvious reasons would not be a good idea) there's little meaningful dialogue to be had. If someone hasn't be exposed to something themselves it's probably not practical to convince them otherwise.
As ironic as this sounds, as far as I can tell (from Haak's reasoning) as long as goblin rape continues to be a consistent theme in the later episodes then rape would be perfectly fine and valid in episode 1 (and all subsequent instances). A single instance is bad but if it is a recurring thematic part of the story then it adds meaningful value to the narrative of the world by demonstrating a constant and real danger.
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2018-10-11, 19:41 | Link #390 | |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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I would argue that there is additional value if that is to happen. Writing-wise, it’s so much easier to just portray girl-characters being raped and then toss them aside from the main narrative with various excuses (pretty much anybody can do that). It’s harder to keep sticking to the rape victims and see how the horrible experience impacts their personalities afterwards and still make a compelling fantasy story out of it or with it or both. If a writer is successful in executing the second method then his/her writing is clearly above the level of the writer who just toss the rape victims aside.
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2018-10-11, 20:04 | Link #391 |
Udon-YAAAAAAAA
Join Date: Jan 2008
Age: 35
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there is already one character that has a traumatic past because of the actions of goblins. a second one wouldn't add too much to the story. for better or worse, the threat to the female members of the party adds more tension to the story than having it happen again to a survivor, which would leave an even worse taste in people's mouths.
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2018-10-11, 20:30 | Link #392 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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I wonder if the adventurer encounter was throwing shade towards the "casualification" of fantasy RPGs. Aside from the Martial Artist, the composition is reminiscent of the usual starting party in an RPG. (The Archer isn't around for obvious reasons. I mean, they are in a cramped cave. No room for drawing bows in that space, and crossbows that relied on a mechanized system are probably expensive for adventurers.) In a typical RPG, the party would have no problems dealing with goblins. But suddenly they found out that this is D&D, not your typical RPG, and so their fate is in the hands of the Dungeon Master and his fickle character.
And another thing: with the power of knowledge in a fantasy world like this, do you think Goblin Slayer is partially responsible for the deaths of many starting adventurers? I mean, he could have shared the information about goblins to the Adventurer's Guild and help spread awareness about the threat, but he kept everything to himself (and to his developing party, starting from the Priestess). If this was Maoyuu, where knowledge and technology quickly advances, goblins would have gone extinct. Maybe he was so deep into this goblin-slaying crusade that he wants ALL the goblins to die by his hand?
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2018-10-11, 20:43 | Link #394 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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I swear, if they got eaten by the giant rats would people still have the same issue?
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2018-10-11, 20:47 | Link #395 | ||
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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2018-10-11, 21:08 | Link #397 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
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Giant Rats have much the same issues...honestly there are two problems to me.
1) The Lack of Response, I expect Humans to come down far harder on a species that needs to reproduce by raping our women. In the Real World, that is typical reason to kill groups people and go full genocide on actual groups of humans. So I imagine that the response would be far worse on Goblins who don't even look human and absolutely need to rape to reproduce. Rats are bad sure but I guarantee if they reproduced like goblins in this series...we come down far harder on those plague spreaders in the real world. And unlike say Demons and Dragons where presumably you need a crack squad of Gold and Plat Heroes decked out in the latest magic gear and with the best potions...goblins seem far easier to put down with some proper training. 2) The other issue is of course party incompetence, common knowledge and total lack of Guild Training. As I said if this was an Isekai, I buy this party displaying such a flippant attitude to goblins. But the fact these characters grow up in this World well that is a lot harder to forgive. |
2018-10-11, 22:57 | Link #399 | ||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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Goblins wiping parties might be common knowledge, but young people have a bad habit of not applying common knowledge to themselves.
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disturbing content, fantasy, tragedy |
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