2011-11-21, 21:56 | Link #61 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Echoing Raiga's post on Page 1: NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN.
Unless you're watching every single anime series for the past six to seven years or so, you have no right to judge the "moe craze" the industry is currently airing. And I even doubt that such a craze exists. First of all, you and I have different ways of viewing "moe". While your opinion of moe may extend to an entire series and can be based on a single scene or on character design. As for me, I don't have any qualms about moe; I only watch what I think is interesting, and the rest might get a chance at a later time. Second, moe does not necessarily ruin an entire series. See Puella Magi Madoka Magica, whose character designer Ume Aoki-sensei is known for her nutbladder-bursting cute characters in Hidamari Sketch. However, the story itself dictates everything, and you get to witness these "moe" characters in a much darker plot that what you'd imagine in Ume-sensei's works. Likewise, a single moe scene does not taint the series where it belongs to and an entire series filled with "moe" cannot be put at fault for a "drop of quality" in Noitamina. It's their choice, and you can just opt to not watch noitaminA shows since it's just a timeslot anyway. Third, there's more to anime right now than "moe" shows. There's Tiger and Bunny, which puts an interesting twist on superheroes. There's Madoka Magica, which places the Magical Girl genre into its darkest incarnation since the original Sailormoon manga series. There's Steins;Gate, that is applauded for being one of the best visual novel adaptations. Also, there's Mawaru Penguindrum, if you're interested in "something different". If you think anime is only in it for moe, then it is time for you to break that mentality.
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Last edited by Marcus H.; 2011-11-22 at 01:26. Reason: Welp, it's Raiga, not Taiga. |
2011-11-21, 22:13 | Link #62 | ||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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A lot of advertising and entertainment forms claw into our primal desires. No matter how advanced we like to think we are, sex is a big part of that. Women seem to be more sensitive about objectification of their gender than do men, but it's absolutely not true to say that men are not objectified just as much. Look in games, advertisements, movies, etc. and count the number of well-muscled men that you see, particularly going shirtless. I haven't heard people making a big deal about that... Part of the discrepancy may be that the male sex drive is much easier to tap into than that of females. Almost every male has a perfect "weakness" when it comes to women - it's just a matter of finding the right physical attributes. Women have similar preferences, but for most women it's not enough to only have that physical attraction. Emotions need to be stoked on the part of the viewer, as well. Hmm, maybe that explains why the portrayal of women in media seems dumbed down? If you assume that these characters are meant to draw people to the show, the amount of work needed to draw in males is much less (and the characters represent that). Since females arguably need "deeper" characters, the portrayals of males are developed to meet it. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it. If you boil it down, I think that this is a rant about the objectification of women in the media, only it centers around anime as the media form in question.
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2011-11-22, 00:17 | Link #63 | |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Let's just kill this topic now, please?
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2011-11-22, 00:22 | Link #65 | ||||||
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But yes, it's hardly limited to anime which is why a lot of rants on the matter lack perspective. And the thought that not including a female character is sexist, is actually somewhat sexist in itself. If you're demanding the forced inclusion of a group for the sake of quality, well... you're trapped in the same mindset of predjudice. Quote:
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Males in society are not as demonized by being portrayed as sexualized beings. Remember, a man that is able to acquire many sexual partners is frequently praised and envied. How many stories have been written through history about men who are successful that are defined through wealth, power, and "bitches and hoes"? So, the sexism presented towards men is different and subject to its own double standard. Also, it doesn't matter if men complain less either. It doesn't justify anything. Both kinds of sexism can still be wrong. Unwarranted abuse of male characters by female ones in anime is my greatest pet peeve, since it seems to be okay to beat on people because they are guys. Quote:
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In any case, I really don't want to portray sexism as a one sided affair where guys are terrible beings that only know how to rape and pillage. Men are victim of sexism in their own ways, as they have their own expectations forced upon them. For example, a male that doesn't desire sex is probably looked down upon as a female that does heavily desire sex But since the people in charge of the media and the world in general are still men, you will see this crap more likely to cater to males and be more condescending to females. So.... crap happens. There are no hard and fast rules to determine what is "good" and what is "bad". How the message as delivered matters a lot. And I have plenty of fanservice/moe titles under my belt.
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2011-11-22, 00:30 | Link #66 | ||
Princess or Plunderer?
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2011-11-22, 00:34 | Link #67 | ||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
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Well, it's not a matter of guys being dumber. The psychology behind their sex drive is just easier to tap into.
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2011-11-22, 00:37 | Link #68 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Anyway the stated topic at hand is: Quote:
Regarding the specific point of this thread... is there more to be said at this point?
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2011-11-22, 00:37 | Link #69 | |
Love Yourself
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Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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2011-11-22, 00:51 | Link #70 | |
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If that is the case, perhaps one could even argue that moe character types can at times show more respect to women than female characters that are created purely to appeal as "sex objects". If you consider most of the female characters in the Key/KyoAni works, for example, they never strike me as being there simply to appeal to male viewers at a purely primal sexual level. There is a definite emotional dimension at play, where attempts are clearly made to make the viewer feel real sympathy and caring for these characters. Granted, some of these characters suffer from a sort of infantilization, and I can definitely see how that would offend some viewers, especially female viewers (speaking of which, I wonder if such infantalization is Shai-Lang's primary beef with "Moe" as a whole - If so, I can respect a more nuanced and precise criticism of that alone). Still, many of the female characters in the Key/KyoAni works are pretty mature, and well-written, imo. I agree with 0utfoxZer0 on Kyou and Tomoyo, but I would also add Shiori and Nayuki (particularly Shiori who I think is a very well-written and well-rounded female character). Mai and Kotomi are not particularly mature, but I also think they have definitive strengths that help to improve their characters and make them interesting (if not compelling) in and of themselves. So while you do have certain extreme cases of moe characters being infantalized, those extreme cases are exactly that: extreme. I would say that your average "middle of the road" moe character is more like the ones 0utf0xZer0 and myself have mentioned. And on the "high end" of such moe characters, you have ones like Sola's Matsuri, imo. Here's an idea I'd like to throw out there: Moe characters are often meant to appeal to male viewers the same way that "dreamy guys" are meant to appeal to female viewers. The K-On girls are akin to a popular boy band, you could say. It's perhaps no coincidence that there's considerable overlap between moe girls and "music idol" girls (just think of the Vocaloids). Now are popular boy bands insults to the male gender? I know some guys who think so, lol, but for female fans of such boy bands, I don't think that they view the guys in them as somehow representing guys being inferior/submissive to women. Likewise, I think that many moe characters are kind of looked up to, if not idolized a bit, by male anime fans. Going back to Sola's Masturi for a second, I think you could say she's the female equivalent of your standard Johnny Depp character. She's definitely intended to come across as "cool" and charming; inherently impressive and not merely a sexual object.
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2011-11-22, 00:55 | Link #71 | |||||||
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I am merely trying to express my world view, and impose it on anime. You can replace every instance of what I said "media" with "anime". I was just lazy in the wording. My point is that I agree with the basis of his post. It was said slightly in jest: Quote:
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2011-11-22, 01:01 | Link #72 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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I guess we'd have to wait for Shai-Lang to come back and remark on it, though. (And Archon_Wing, I didn't think that any aspect of your posts came off as offensive. No worries. I've enjoyed the conversation we had.)
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2011-11-22, 01:06 | Link #73 | ||||
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 33
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A female character can be well-developed and even be considered progressive even if she is sexualized. Take Akamatsu Ken's Negima, for instance. Yes, there is tons and tons of fanservice, but the characters are very well-developed with their own unique goals and personalities. This works in the same way with Neon Genesis Evangelion: lot of 'pervy' camera shots and fanservice, but well-developed characters. Much more preferable to the typical dull, perfect "action girl" of several Hollywood action movies. I like and enjoy most fanservice; why should I or anyone else have to feel guilty for becoming sexually attracted to a character we like? Moe works the same way. It's true that a lot of characters I consider moe I'd love to have sex with, but the terms are quite separate in meaning. Nevertheless, why should I feel bad for feeling moe? Moe is a good thing. It makes you feel warm, happy, relaxed, and confident. It's when an anime has nothing good but moe that it becomes less than standard. There is another thing I'd like to address about sexism: The Bechdel Test. From the Hollywood films I've watched; there are typically only two or so female characters and they rarely get chemistry between each other. It's proven that Western film makers are actually encouraged to avoid conversation between female characters. Even when female characters meet, quite often they are either talking about a man or they are fighting each other. In contrast, from the (admittedly small) number of anime I've seen, the great majority have passed this test with flying colors. I'm not saying that passing the test is a necessity to depict females fairly, neither am I saying that passing the test automatically prevents sexist depictions, but anime females tend to have a lot more presence than those from Hollywood movies, which is an important step towards a fair portrayal. Quote:
I wish there was more loli fanservice in anime. Whenever I've seen it lately, it seemed very much subdued next to the "monster breast" fanservice. More normal-sized busts would be great, too. Quote:
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2011-11-22, 01:16 | Link #74 | ||
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2011-11-22, 01:22 | Link #75 | |
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But yea, it may have been hard to tell the intention of my posts (damn tone on the internet). I just wanted to remind myself and everyone that it must be about anime in a general anime sub-forum.
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2011-11-22, 01:31 | Link #76 |
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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Moe is simply effectively marketed to what the target audience that will fork over money to buy the show and the merchandise. It's not superior writing, story or characters. It's marketed properly. Marketing is more important than the title itself if you want sales. And if that's what more people in Japan buy than other titles/styles, then that's what more studios will make. Sales and quality don't correlate. You don't necessarily have to have a good title to sell. You just need to make people want it.
And moe wasn't the first to do it, nor is it the most effective. The Evangelion and Gundam franchises are better at it. They can exist for years without a new title purely off of merchandise and Bandai marketing strategies. Merchandise is just as important as the title itself in maintaining the numbers of a fanbase.
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2011-11-22, 01:38 | Link #77 | ||||
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Something like Strike Witches, or yes, the Negima manga, I find extremely hard to get into because it's throwing loud* sexual fanservice at me at the very same time as it's throwing serious action scenes at me, and it just causes a nasty clash for me. For me, it's kind of like if Shakespeare tried to insert a lot of comedic relief into his play's finest moments of high drama. That being said... Quote:
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* "Loud" in the sense that a Hawaiian T-Shirt is loud.
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2011-11-22, 01:46 | Link #78 |
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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Madoka is a show that polarises the new school and old school. New school generally likes it, old school generally despises it. I know because I've spoken to plenty of old school fans over the last year and they tell me shows like Madoka are why they've given up on anime. Madoka pushes all the right buttons for the current crop. For the crop that came off of the 1998 wave, Madoka is the exact opposite of what they want. Not saying whcih way people should go on it - but I am saying Madoka is a show that typifies the changes in what anime fans want now and wanted 10 years ago.
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2011-11-22, 02:02 | Link #79 | ||||
Japanese Culture Fan
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2011-11-22, 02:15 | Link #80 | |
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Madoka has around 4 named male characters. If it passes it'd be an incredibly flimsy pass. Anyway Madoka is definitely a show created for a male audience and the topic creator obviously wants shoujo shows (3 of the shows they mentioned are shoujo shows). Really I think the bigger deal among westerners is that the obligatory magical girl show slots are already filled up with Pretty Cure and Jewel Pet which aren't popular outside Japan and so they don't get brought up in topics like this. Sailor Moon should be compared with Pretty Cure, Candy Candy with things like Beast Player Erin etc and Utena with things like Penguin Drum. Madoka on the other hand is equivalent with shows like Puni Puni Poemy.
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