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Old 2016-05-11, 09:51   Link #181
Tactics
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Gunning down Bucky just like that isn't right. But the authorities don't have a lot of reason to believe that they're ordering a hit on good ole Bucky, just a nice WW2 vet from Brooklyn. They believe that they're ordering a hit on Winter Soldier. A homicidal enhanced super terrorist who can shred through SWAT Teams like a blender. And I can't fault the authorities wanting to risk lives when fighting an individual as dangerous as him. Maybe Cap offered to go in himself, but last time Cap tried that it nearly got him killed.

Lets keep in mind that the Audience has a bit of an unfair advantage in evaluating this situation. We get to see scenes of Bucky when he was completely alone. We get to see that Bucky begins to remember Steve, him breaking his conditioning, and we get to see him be quite clearly shocked when the newspaper declare him the UN Bomber. WE know that Cap's gut call was correct one. But for the authorities working with incomplete information, I find it hard to judge.
Same goes with The Accord, I'd say.

People keep saying about how it would became hindrance when dealing with such threat like Thanos and other alien invaders while they forgot that Vision noted that its not surprising for him if majority reach conclusion which is The Accord since the number of 'superhuman' rises significantly after 2008 (a.k.a Iron Man 1) hence government want some control.

Considering that, its more like government tried to made Avengers, the first superhuman group, be an example to other superhuman out there that they still need to follow regulation, convincing other normal human that they could ensure their safety regarding issue with 'superhuman' in the future. Not really something bad I thought, because if I'm one of people in MCU, I don't want to get caught in midst of Hulkbuster vs. Hulk just because they decided to put an end to Ultron ASAP.

What make it worse is government chose Ross.
While he is the best military personnel you could get to initiate the plan, we know what kind of person Ross is from his history dealing with Banner before Avengers.
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Old 2016-05-11, 10:18   Link #182
james0246
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By and large, I liked the film quite a bit. It's easily in the top 3 or 4 of the MCU releases (which could be damning with faint praise), and besides some stupid character beats (Tony and Cap are almost equally as stupid through the film, and Zemo's plan, while fun, is riddled with so many 'what ifs' as to be almost statistically improbable), this was a near perfect action movie from start to finish with an insane amount of great character moments and overall positive plot progression for the series.
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Old 2016-05-11, 16:46   Link #183
Kafriel
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Just came back from watching this. While mildly entertaining, not a great movie. Let's get to the bad first, the plot calls:

Spoiler for bad stuff:


But there's also the bright side of things!
Spoiler for the good!:


I'd rate it at 6.2/10, might watch again in a year or two.
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Old 2016-05-11, 17:58   Link #184
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Just came back from watching this. While mildly entertaining, not a great movie. Let's get to the bad first, the plot calls:

Spoiler for bad stuff:

-Cap's shield did block the grenade. The shiled however does NOT somehow let Captain stick to the ground and thus cap can still be pushed by the blast. The reason Cap didn't move when he blocked thor's strike, is because Thord was striking downward and thus forceing Cap into the ground... if thor had stuck sideways, Cap would have gone flying from the force of the hit

-Don't recall what you're talking about, but it would depend on the thickness of the girder... If the girder is thicker than the length of the claws, then its gonna take more than one strike to cut through it

-Hawkeye wasn't planning to fight Vision, just run away from him. He seemed to be hoping that explosion was gonna distract Vision long enough for him to get away with Wanda, along with the arrows he set up as a backup... it apparently did not distract him as long as he thought it would

-One of the themes of this movie is that civilian lives DO matter. A couple dozen dead people is a very serious matter. The loss of human lives can NOT be ignored and can't just be written off as "collateral damage". And no those people would not have died anyway... the explosion from crossbones wasn't big enough to effect the people high up in that building. It was only by lifting him up there that Wanda ended up putting them in range of his bomb

-Vengeance and Justice are NOT the same things. Bucky was under complete mind control when he killed Tony's parents. By all reasoning he is not truly responsible for killing them; he literately had no choice in the matter. The only ones responsible were the hydra agents that gave the winter solider the orders to attack them. To allow Tony to KILL Bucky for something he had no power over would be wrong in every single way. THAT is the difference between "Justice" and "Vengeance". Justice if bringing about fair punishment on those who have done something wrong... Vengeance is just about lashing out emotionally against anyone who you are angry at regardless of details and facts and ignoring the innocent that might be in the way. In truth, Bucky isn't really responsible for killing anyone, since everyone he killed as the winter solider he killed under complete mind control. He's not a terrorist, he's a victim. He needs help, not a death sentence.

-Zemo is a former paramilitary commander and intelligence officer. He just a plain good tactician.
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Old 2016-05-11, 18:28   Link #185
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It also didn't erase memories. It just let you re-experience memories in a virtual setting to allow you to cope/override them. Deep seated brainwashing ala the Faustus Method is not a repressed memory that you can just cope with.

As for Wanda's thing, while THOSE people wouldn't have died, many more would have that were encircling Cap and Crossbones' fight and were watching mere feet away.

I also feel those who don't understand Bucky's plight haven't watched Jessica Jones.
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Old 2016-05-11, 23:06   Link #186
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It is able to absorb all kinetic energy and transfers very little energy from each impact, meaning Captain America does not feel recoil or transferred impact forces from blocking attacks.
Part of Cap's shield description. Not feeling recoil -> not bouncing back through glass windows from a single grenade.

Quote:
-One of the themes of this movie is that civilian lives DO matter. A couple dozen dead people is a very serious matter. The loss of human lives can NOT be ignored and can't just be written off as "collateral damage". And no those people would not have died anyway... the explosion from crossbones wasn't big enough to effect the people high up in that building. It was only by lifting him up there that Wanda ended up putting them in range of his bomb
Ross suffers from a severe case of tunnel vision, showing clips of the alien invasion was the worst thing he could do: if the avengers hadn't acted, the entire planet would have been overtaken. Instead of people saying "thank god these guys were here", he finds it more rational to go with the ones who were thinking "OMG 200 dead? These guys must be super dangerous". I'm not saying that nobody sees the bigger picture, but 127 countries signing up for Avenger control is too much (ESPECIALLY after the incident with SHIELD).

Quote:
-Vengeance and Justice are NOT the same things. Bucky was under complete mind control when he killed Tony's parents. By all reasoning he is not truly responsible for killing them; he literately had no choice in the matter. The only ones responsible were the hydra agents that gave the winter solider the orders to attack them. To allow Tony to KILL Bucky for something he had no power over would be wrong in every single way. THAT is the difference between "Justice" and "Vengeance". Justice if bringing about fair punishment on those who have done something wrong... Vengeance is just about lashing out emotionally against anyone who you are angry at regardless of details and facts and ignoring the innocent that might be in the way. In truth, Bucky isn't really responsible for killing anyone, since everyone he killed as the winter solider he killed under complete mind control. He's not a terrorist, he's a victim. He needs help, not a death sentence.
He is a living weapon. As long as someone knows how to control him, his very existence is dangerous. What has he done to redeem himself, because I can't really recall anything - even when Cap busted him out, he decided to go back to sleep...might as well have made it last forever.

Quote:
As for Wanda's thing, while THOSE people wouldn't have died, many more would have that were encircling Cap and Crossbones' fight and were watching mere feet away.
The explosion would have also knocked down the building, killing these people in the process.

Quote:
I also feel those who don't understand Bucky's plight haven't watched Jessica Jones.
Indeed I haven't. I really liked the way Deadpool ended though

Oh, adding to the list of plot calls:
Spoiler for missed one:
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Old 2016-05-11, 23:31   Link #187
Tactics
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Ross suffers from a severe case of tunnel vision, showing clips of the alien invasion was the worst thing he could do: if the avengers hadn't acted, the entire planet would have been overtaken. Instead of people saying "thank god these guys were here", he finds it more rational to go with the ones who were thinking "OMG 200 dead? These guys must be super dangerous". I'm not saying that nobody sees the bigger picture, but 127 countries signing up for Avenger control is too much (ESPECIALLY after the incident with SHIELD).
Sokovia and the whole Hulk vs. Hulkbuster is contributing factors.
No countries want to be used as a meteor by a someone's security system that goes haywire or having two monsters fight in the middle of the road, endangering civilian, whatever the reason is.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Oh, adding to the list of plot calls:
Spoiler for missed one:
Zemo already stated the room he used is good enough to deal with nuclear blast.
I'm pretty sure both Cap's shield and Tony's repulsor not even reach that level of damage. Not to mention by how Zemo easily going outside the base while Cap and Tony fight each other, not using the same path used by Cap, Bucky and Tony, we could say its a room intended for safety purpose from start.
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Old 2016-05-11, 23:43   Link #188
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I'd accept calling out Tony on Ultron's actions, since he is the one who caused it all, but they've saved the world from genuine disaster too. Not to mention, if Thor was there, who would dare impose such rules on an otherworldly god?

Quote:
Zemo already stated the room he used is good enough to deal with nuclear blast.
What kind of blast can withstand a nuclear blast?
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Old 2016-05-12, 00:21   Link #189
Tactics
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I'd accept calling out Tony on Ultron's actions, since he is the one who caused it all, but they've saved the world from genuine disaster too. Not to mention, if Thor was there, who would dare impose such rules on an otherworldly god?
Really? If you created disaster (especially if its a large-scale disaster) as well as saving the world from a disaster, they'll just acknowledged you as potential threat.
Hulk cause a lot of damage for each of his action (its hard to not see Hulk not damaging any building), Ultron became proof of what happened if Tony act without control (although Wanda's mind manipulation contribute as well), Steve risk civilian by putting action into priority once the fight goes on the street--ended up blowing several people thanks to Crossbone suicide bomb; he's lucky there's Wanda assisting him, but what if Wanda weren't there or late to assist him?

Sadly, the battle in airport is justifying what kind of damage they could do when things goes uncontrolled.
Good thing Tony and co. already ensure the airport is empty of people but the airplanes.

As for Thor, are you seriously thought there's no way to impose rules to him?
Remember you're dealing with Ross here, someone who willing enough to imprisoned his own daughter if that could keep Banner in check. Ross can just do the same to Thor's girlfriend if he need to.
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Old 2016-05-12, 00:30   Link #190
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Really? If you created disaster (especially if its a large-scale disaster) as well as saving the world from a disaster, they'll just acknowledged you as potential threat.
Hulk cause a lot of damage for each of his action (its hard to not see Hulk not damaging any building), Ultron became proof of what happened if Tony act without control (although Wanda's mind manipulation contribute as well), Steve risk civilian by putting action into priority once the fight goes on the street--ended up blowing several people thanks to Crossbone suicide bomb; he's lucky there's Wanda assisting him, but what if Wanda weren't there or late to assist him?

Sadly, the battle in airport is justifying what kind of damage they could do when things goes uncontrolled.
Good thing Tony and co. already ensure the airport is empty of people but the airplanes.

As for Thor, are you seriously thought there's no way to impose rules to him?
Remember you're dealing with Ross here, someone who willing enough to imprisoned his own daughter if that could keep Banner in check. Ross can just do the same to Thor's girlfriend if he need to.
Incurring the wrath of a thunder god who is also the inheritor of a combat nation is the most stupid thing Ross could ever do, but whatever, we'll talk about Thor when Ragnarok comes out :P

Let's take analyze the bombing for a second: crossbones is a suicide bomber, if the avengers weren't there, everyone in the area would have died. Since they mitigated the casualties, they should have been thanked for it - instead, they became the target of blame, as if they directly caused the bombing).

Hulk is indeed dangerous, he has repeatedly stated so himself. That's pretty much why he is in self-imposed exile even now...

As for the airport damage...I bet Tony's lunch money can cover that It was a pretty stupid place to start a fight though.
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Old 2016-05-12, 00:52   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Let's take analyze the bombing for a second: crossbones is a suicide bomber, if the avengers weren't there, everyone in the area would have died. Since they mitigated the casualties, they should have been thanked for it - instead, they became the target of blame, as if they directly caused the bombing).
As someone experienced dealing with Hydra agents (which tend to commit suicides when they failed), Steve should've anticipated it, at least by ensuring distance from civilian when they fought or asking others assistance to keep people far from him and Crossbones as he does understand there's a biological weapon involved there (high possibility for a suicide bomb), but in reality, its not happened.

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It was a pretty stupid place to start a fight though.
Far from town and there's wide space, I don't see any problem to fight there.
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Old 2016-05-12, 00:57   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Incurring the wrath of a thunder god who is also the inheritor of a combat nation is the most stupid thing Ross could ever do, but whatever, we'll talk about Thor when Ragnarok comes out :P

Let's take analyze the bombing for a second: crossbones is a suicide bomber, if the avengers weren't there, everyone in the area would have died. Since they mitigated the casualties, they should have been thanked for it - instead, they became the target of blame, as if they directly caused the bombing).

Hulk is indeed dangerous, he has repeatedly stated so himself. That's pretty much why he is in self-imposed exile even now...

As for the airport damage...I bet Tony's lunch money can cover that It was a pretty stupid place to start a fight though.
Sadly, you could see Ross being that stupid and starting that war.....only to then expect the Avengers minus Thor to save them. And then after that blaming the Avengers for the war damages....

The UN can go ahead and ask Thor to comply with their regulations. But if he doesn't decide to....well they can either force the issue or decide it isn't worth bringing the military might of a more advanced race upon them. Only really stupid leaders would think the losses incurred by the Avengers actions is worth starting an inter-dimensional war over.

And yeah no matter what Crossbones was blowing something up. Maybe not himself, maybe he only set that up in case Cap and company showed up. But they were clearly planning on doing some damage regardless of whether the Avengers showed up and had in fact already done a lot of harm in previous attacks. Unfortunately Crossbones played the situation out as best as he could have. He had his men split out which spread out the Avengers, thus no one was in a great position to really help thin out the crowd, much less evacuate local buildings. And yeah, the Bucky card worked pretty well also. May also have not expected the suicide move anyways. He had worked with this guy for quite some time in Shield and may not have considered him the type to take his own life. Plus, not sure how many suicide troops Cap really has had to deal with. Most Hydra he fought....he took down. At least I don't remember much suiciding in either of the first two Captain America films.
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Old 2016-05-12, 01:26   Link #193
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And yeah no matter what Crossbones was blowing something up. Maybe not himself, maybe he only set that up in case Cap and company showed up. But they were clearly planning on doing some damage regardless of whether the Avengers showed up and had in fact already done a lot of harm in previous attacks. Unfortunately Crossbones played the situation out as best as he could have. He had his men split out which spread out the Avengers, thus no one was in a great position to really help thin out the crowd, much less evacuate local buildings. And yeah, the Bucky card worked pretty well also. May also have not expected the suicide move anyways. He had worked with this guy for quite some time in Shield and may not have considered him the type to take his own life. Plus, not sure how many suicide troops Cap really has had to deal with. Most Hydra he fought....he took down. At least I don't remember much suiciding in either of the first two Captain America films.
Crossbones is Hydra agents, of course suicide is just an another plan on his head.
Steve himself admit that he expected that move (suicide bomb) from Crossbones, but that Bucky card is too effective.

Actually, Avengers could thin out the crowd if they're working with local police or brought some team with them in case they're too busy dealing with them, similar to how Cap instruct police at Avengers 1 or asking Quicksilver assistance to secure people at Avengers 2.
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Old 2016-05-12, 08:01   Link #194
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Part of Cap's shield description. Not feeling recoil -> not bouncing back through glass windows from a single grenade.
Not in the movies... In winter solider Cap blocked a rocket and it sent him flying


Quote:
He is a living weapon. As long as someone knows how to control him, his very existence is dangerous. What has he done to redeem himself, because I can't really recall anything - even when Cap busted him out, he decided to go back to sleep...might as well have made it last forever.
He's an INNOCENT human being. Since when do we give death sentences to innocent people? Kinda hard to seek redemption when people are trying to kill you. Funny thing about a death sentence is that is that it kinda makes it hard to redeem yourself after your are dead. If Bucky were actually CURED he could be just as valuable to the world as Captain America and could go on to save thousands or even millions of lives... but no, let's just kill him because Tony is pissed about something that bucky had no power over

Quote:
The explosion would have also knocked down the building, killing these people in the process.
There is zero evidence that the explosion was big enough to knock down the building... if it was, it would have probably destroyed the building from higher up

Quote:
Let's take analyze the bombing for a second: crossbones is a suicide bomber, if the avengers weren't there, everyone in the area would have died. Since they mitigated the casualties, they should have been thanked for it - instead, they became the target of blame, as if they directly caused the bombing).
They didn't really mitigate the casualties, they actually just changed who the causalities were. Instead of the people on the ground dying, they ended up killing those who were in the building who were originally safely out of the range of the blast. And this is why Wanda can Cap feel responsible because they know their actions ended up getting those people killed.


Quote:
Oh, adding to the list of plot calls:
Spoiler for missed one:
Zemo stated that room he was in was built to withstand such use of force...



Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight
And yeah no matter what Crossbones was blowing something up. Maybe not himself, maybe he only set that up in case Cap and company showed up. But they were clearly planning on doing some damage regardless of whether the Avengers showed up and had in fact already done a lot of harm in previous attacks. Unfortunately Crossbones played the situation out as best as he could have. He had his men split out which spread out the Avengers, thus no one was in a great position to really help thin out the crowd, much less evacuate local buildings.
If the Avengers were cooperating with the UN then there would have been many more options for them... First the UN could have warned the Wakandan delegation so they could either postpone or relocate their mission to a safer time and place. Second, the avengers could have brought some extra UN troops with them. They could have had that entire building surrounded and thus better prevent a chase into crowded areas and limit the fighting to a smaller area. The UN could have also worked crowd control and thus furthar limit casualties.
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Old 2016-05-12, 11:20   Link #195
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Lol
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Old 2016-05-12, 13:14   Link #196
Kafriel
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He's an INNOCENT human being. Since when do we give death sentences to innocent people? Kinda hard to seek redemption when people are trying to kill you. Funny thing about a death sentence is that is that it kinda makes it hard to redeem yourself after your are dead. If Bucky were actually CURED he could be just as valuable to the world as Captain America and could go on to save thousands or even millions of lives... but no, let's just kill him because Tony is pissed about something that bucky had no power over
No, let's not kill him coz Tony got beef, let's kill him because he has assisted in the murder of a lot of people. Even death by neglect has repercussions, why would you think Bucky should get a free pass? Also note, Bucky still has the potential to kill millions of lives. What about that?
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Old 2016-05-12, 13:32   Link #197
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All the chasing of Bucky by the UN ignored one important thing; that the UN entirely ignored the man who actually bombed the UN building.

But that's basically what's the reality with politics. What isn't important is getting the culprit, but to actually have someone to take the blame. Bucky LOOKS the part, so the fact that he didn't actually bomb the UN didn't matter.

In the end Zemo could actually have killed himself with no one higher up actually caring he was the one who did it. If he DID die instead of being stopped by Black Panther, then it is very possible the UN will just keep blaming Bucky for the bombing.

In the end Black Panther didn't just save Bucky by sheltering him. He also saved Bucky by bringing Zemo in alive so the UN is FORCED to clear Bucky's name. Because the UN really, really didn't want to catch the UN bomber at all. Zemo is just far less sexy a target as the Winter Soldier.
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Old 2016-05-12, 14:14   Link #198
Slayerx
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No, let's not kill him coz Tony got beef, let's kill him because he has assisted in the murder of a lot of people. Even death by neglect has repercussions, why would you think Bucky should get a free pass? Also note, Bucky still has the potential to kill millions of lives. What about that?
Its not death by neglect. Neglect is still a type of action that requires free will; "Death by neglect" actually involves choices made by a person... like for instance accidentally giving someone food poisoning because you neglected to check the expiration date on the food you gave them. Neglect implies that a person could have changed the outcome if they were not neglectful. Bucky didn't have ANY control at all. He did not choose to be kidnapped by Hydra. He didn't choose to become a super soldier, or to become brainwashed. And he certainly didn't choose to go on any missions. He was completely stripped of his free will. he did not kill people out of neglect but because he litterally could not choose to do otherwise. He was used like nothing more than a human puppet. He literally had no power to stop anything he was forced to do.

And no he doesn't have the potential to kill millions. Why? Because using his free will he chose to put himself on ice, under heavy guard until they could erase his brainwashing. He is no threat to anyone now, and when the wakanan's are done with him, he will become one of the world's greatest heroic assets.


Not to mention that this all besides the point... The originally point was about Stark wanting to kill Bucky, and stark wasn't using any such rationale. He didn't care about all of the crimes the winter soldier committed; the one and ONLY rationale Stark was using to kill bucky was "he killed my mom"... a purely vengeful reasoning that IGNORES the fact that Bucky had no choice in the matter and could not have stopped himself. Stark wanted to kill a mere puppet, when the puppeteer is the one solely responsible for the puppet's actions

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
All the chasing of Bucky by the UN ignored one important thing; that the UN entirely ignored the man who actually bombed the UN building.

But that's basically what's the reality with politics. What isn't important is getting the culprit, but to actually have someone to take the blame. Bucky LOOKS the part, so the fact that he didn't actually bomb the UN didn't matter.

In the end Zemo could actually have killed himself with no one higher up actually caring he was the one who did it. If he DID die instead of being stopped by Black Panther, then it is very possible the UN will just keep blaming Bucky for the bombing.

In the end Black Panther didn't just save Bucky by sheltering him. He also saved Bucky by bringing Zemo in alive so the UN is FORCED to clear Bucky's name. Because the UN really, really didn't want to catch the UN bomber at all. Zemo is just far less sexy a target as the Winter Soldier.
I have to disagree. The UN ignored Zemo because they didn't know he was even a suspect. The entire time that the UN was going after Bucky, they did because he was the only suspect. It wasn't until the psychaitrists body turned up that the UN would get their lead on another suspect behind the attacks. Not to mention that the UN would have an outstanding warrant for the winter solider for prior crimes
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Old 2016-05-12, 14:32   Link #199
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Not to mention that the UN would have an outstanding warrant for the winter solider for prior crimes
Not important. A man does not need to be completely innocent elsewhere to be innocent of a crime. You just justified the argument that it is fine to blame Bucky for the bombing, not realising that it automatically means Zemo is absolved of his crime in the process.

A miscarriage of justice is not just one wrong, but two; You frame an innocent man, AND let the real criminal get away. You can't kill Bucky without ending up closing the case, thus letting Zemo go free, It is simply not possible to indict Zemo if Bucky dies.
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Old 2016-05-12, 14:52   Link #200
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The originally point was about Stark wanting to kill Bucky, and stark wasn't using any such rationale. He didn't care about all of the crimes the winter soldier committed; the one and ONLY rationale Stark was using to kill bucky was "he killed my mom"... a purely vengeful reasoning that IGNORES the fact that Bucky had no choice in the matter and could not have stopped himself. Stark wanted to kill a mere puppet, when the puppeteer is the one solely responsible for the puppet's actions
This stands, yes, but there is the counterpoint that nobody wants to acknowledge, that Steve wanted to save Bucky just because they're friends, which is just as egoistic as Tony's desire to kill him. At least Tony had the law on his side.
Quote:
Its not death by neglect. Neglect is still a type of action that requires free will; "Death by neglect" actually involves choices made by a person... like for instance accidentally giving someone food poisoning because you neglected to check the expiration date on the food you gave them. Neglect implies that a person could have changed the outcome if they were not neglectful. Bucky didn't have ANY control at all. He did not choose to be kidnapped by Hydra. He didn't choose to become a super soldier, or to become brainwashed. And he certainly didn't choose to go on any missions. He was completely stripped of his free will. he did not kill people out of neglect but because he litterally could not choose to do otherwise. He was used like nothing more than a human puppet. He literally had no power to stop anything he was forced to do.
I used death by neglect as an example, didn't mean to imply that Bucky's crimes were such. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Quote:
And no he doesn't have the potential to kill millions. Why? Because using his free will he chose to put himself on ice, under heavy guard until they could erase his brainwashing. He is no threat to anyone now, and when the wakanan's are done with him, he will become one of the world's greatest heroic assets.
Heavy guards rarely stop villains from doing whatever they want (god knows how many prison breaks have been written in Marvel stories) and Zemo is a prime example of someone who found an abandoned weapon and decided to go out with a bang. Do note, I'm the first guy to scream how the fuck did Zemo even get a hold of all that information, so, as unlikely as it is, there is precedent in Bucky's case.
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