[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[TkMacintosh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, in ep3 Hideyoshi test-fires at least one of the guns to clear it. Blanks are a little different from the real thing, so whether he'd notice or not is an open question.I agree, which is why I think there's still a gun unaccounted for, possibly a handgun.

Like say the one that could've been used to kill Natsuhi in EP 1? All we heard was a gun shot, but who's is to say that there wasn't -2- Gun shots going off at the same time, the rifle covering the sound of the handgun's shot.

Natsuhi's rifle missing the culprit, while the Handgun hits its target. Dead straight in the middle of the forehead....

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by TkMacintosh

Like say the one that could've been used to kill Natsuhi in EP 1? All we heard was a gun shot, but who's is to say that there wasn't -2- Gun shots going off at the same time, the rifle covering the sound of the handgun's shot.

Natsuhi's rifle missing the culprit, while the Handgun hits its target. Dead straight in the middle of the forehead....

I'm not sure I like this Convenient Handgun theory. Last time I checked, the only proof of a handgun existing is that some of the gunshot wounds on the bodies are impossible for the rifles. Couldn't this just be a situation where Ryuukishi didn't reasearch the effect specific guns have on bodies?
Still, you can have the same double-blending-into-single shot effect if it's two rifles... but the chance of it happening is slim.

[Renall]

The presence of certain wounds implies the presence of certain weapons. It's a hint without necessarily a revelation. Some weapons have been hinted at through actual presence (the cleaver), but others are more implied. I just think a handgun or something makes more sense than the killer toting an unconcealable rifle around, and the bullet wounds and noise. There's no direct evidence for it.

[Misuzu]

It also seems unlikely that the culprit would want to have to rely on Kinzo's rifles, especially since they're so old. If you're plotting a mass murder, I'd imagine you'd want to make sure you have access to a reliable weapon.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

It also seems unlikely that the culprit would want to have to rely on Kinzo's rifles, especially since they're so old. If you're plotting a mass murder, I'd imagine you'd want to make sure you have access to a reliable weapon.

Old; yes. Reliable? It doesn't take much for a gun to be loaded, pointed at someone, and shot. It doensn't matter how old the gun is, as long as it's in good quality, it'll work. As I mentioned before, Kinzo shot the guns with Kanon, which means they were in operation at the latest, two years ago, if my memory serves me correct. More so, if he used them regularly, then he'd would've kept maintenance on them at least a year ago. And another more so, if the culprit does plan to use them in the murder, and they've had six years to plan this, then why not keep them in working condition?
I just don't like the idea of something existing on flimsy proof like a specific gunshot wound. Sure, it's a logical reason, but Ryuukishi's known to not do all the research he should. It's just loose to me.
But as Renall said, there's no direct evidence, but there is logical evidence. So it's still up in the air. I'll just do as I like to do.

[Misuzu]

From what I've read, old rifles like the ones Kinzo had can jam pretty often. I'm sure this wouldn't be a problem at all when they shot for fun, like Kinzo did with Kanon, but if you were trying to use a gun to murder someone, the gun jamming could cost you your life.

There's something about the rifles being mostly ornamental in the Episode 1 tips, I think. That's a big enough hint towards an additional gun for me.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

There's something about the rifles being mostly ornamental in the Episode 1 tips, I think. That's a big enough hint towards an additional gun for me.

The episode 1 TIP says that 'if you can handle the unique lever action it can also be used for rapid fire like an average pistol'. So it's really saying the opposite of what your saying.

[Pikatira]

Here is a thought:

What if Asumu didn't die because of an illness? I was thinking about it, how could her death keep Battler away from his family for 6 year?

Here is what I think happen. I think that Asumu was mentally ill and told Battler that he was Kryie's child, maybe even calling him a bastard child. After that there are two possibilities. One that Battler killed her in anger. Or two that he went to someone crying about what had happen and that someone confronted Asumu and accidently killed her. Then because of this Battler was sent to live with his grandparents. While he was there, he probably blocked out the painful memories of his mother and forgotten what had happen, while the family covered up the murder to make it seem as if she had died from an illness.

I don't know if this theory helps any but I wanted to mention it so that we can keep the possiblity of it in mind.

[UsagiTenpura]

In arc 6 Battler made all the tape on the island not sticky enough. Isn't it possible that many things can be altered in such way by a gamemaster? Including things such as guns being defective/working and ammo being real/blank?

After all it's not like Battler had any practical way of really removing all the tape on the island and replacing it by bad tape.

[Judoh]

Possible, but are there any clear hints about it? This is a completely new idea in the 6th game so it may or may not have happened.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

In arc 6 Battler made all the tape on the island not sticky enough. Isn't it possible that many things can be altered in such way by a gamemaster? Including things such as guns being defective/working and ammo being real/blank?

After all it's not like Battler had any practical way of really removing all the tape on the island and replacing it by bad tape.

Theoretically, but it would defeat the purpose of a fair game. The witch's side and the human's side must have equal chance to defeat the other. Killing one's main tool, murder weapons, would require balancing out on the human's side as well.

And, idea! We never saw any of those guns carried around in Episode 6 shooting bullets. So here's a random bit of speculation: When Battler modified the tape so that Erika couldn't use it to seal rooms, he also made it so that none of the guns on the island could be used as murder weapons. Which coincidently, matches up with none of the Siestas appearing on the gameboard. When he gave her the three strips of duct tape, a limited number of shots were retroactively added in to give the witch's side a fair fight.
Though this is nothing more than a crack theory not designed for humour.

[UsagiTenpura]

Completely new? As far as I'm concerned arc 6 simply confirmed something.
Arc 6 doesn't show "completely new things", it explains the workings of things that have been going on all along.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Completely new? As far as I'm concerned arc 6 simply confirmed something.
Arc 6 doesn't show "completely new things", it explains the workings of things that have been going on all along.

The idea that you can revise a game during the game was completely new. I certainly don't know of anyone who thought a game was altered from reading the previous games so it didn't confirm anything like that, but it does confirm the idea that the games are fictions for most of us.

[UsagiTenpura]

There's plenty of hints IMO but I guess that's a matter of perspective.
I think there were many in Bernkastel's letter among things. Just the name endless magic in itself is a hint of that. Anyway.

[Pikatira]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The idea that you can revise a game during the game was completely new. I certainly don't know of anyone who thought a game was altered from reading the previous games so it didn't confirm anything like that, but it does confirm the idea that the games are fictions for most of us.

Spoiler for Hmm:

Didn't Featherinne say something about how the first two arcs are based on the evidence that was found after the murders and the others are speculations of what could have happen. So if the other stories are just speculations of what could have happen, then from the 3 arc on, they could be just that, fiction.

Edit: Warning this is just a thought. I don't remember exactly what Featerinne had said but I remeber it had to do with the first two arcs.

Edit Again: I meant to say Toya. >_>

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The idea that you can revise a game during the game was completely new. I certainly don't know of anyone who thought a game was altered from reading the previous games so it didn't confirm anything like that, but it does confirm the idea that the games are fictions for most of us.

Actually, I made a theory about that right before EP5 was released. Here. Logic errors and all
Second half was totally wrong though ^^;

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Actually, I made a theory about that right before EP5 was released. Here. Logic errors and all
Second half was totally wrong though ^^;

Well I think your talking about selecting Kakera and creating possible scenarios from past ones and it seem to be mostly a theory on red text. I don't see how it's related to what I'm talking about because I'm talking about how the game master is revising something that happened in a game while we're reading it and while the game is being played without red. Like the duct tape.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

There's plenty of hints IMO but I guess that's a matter of perspective.
I think there were many in Bernkastel's letter among things. Just the name endless magic in itself is a hint of that. Anyway.

I'm mostly asking for hints for that winchester scenario you were talking about not the idea of the fiction thing. For example blanks have never been mentioned in any game before.

[UsagiTenpura]

The thing is that a "fair typical mystery" doesn't have a gamemaster or a player. I think it's a lot more important to think about that then about it being a mystery.

When you play a videogame, you're aware all the actions except those you do are part of a single system, the "game". If you take it as something like a AD&D mystery game, then beside players all the rest of people are "NPCs" controlled by a single person. Then people are called pieces.

That wasn't the "main way" I thought of arcs, however arc 5 and 6 leads me to believe this is closer to the right way of perceiving the gameboard rather then fair/typical tales of mystery. It feels like the stretch from actually being a fair mystery gradually get deeper as the tales advances. Now arc 6 told us pretty clearly that "what appears as a miracle" (extreme luck) is the design of someone. Bernkastel makes it sorta clear in the endgame. However I guessed the general idea behind that by Bernkastel's letter, when she said she understood rule X after LD declared that she certainly never would win the game, combined with the idea that Beato always holds the dice and never let them go. It doesn't matter if you have 5/6 chances of winning on the dice, Beatrice will never let you roll it. If you appear to roll the dice and get the roll you wanted, it's because someone made it so you got that roll.

It turns back to my point about the duel between Shannon and Kanon. No matter how "fair" the duel is declared to be, the writer, Ryukishi, is the one who decided who won. He likely made it so in order to follow his story, and didn't decide so on a cointoss (tho I guess I can't prove that). No matter how we are told that within the story Shannon won only cause of luck, from our real world perspective it was Ryukishi's design.

As for calling this unfair, really, to have the detective be allowed to "try again" multiple times in multiple tales isn't very fair for the culprit. We were warned from arc 1 that the way to beat Beatrice is to figure out the rules she impersonates.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well I think your talking about selecting Kakera and creating possible scenarios from past ones and it seem to be mostly a theory on red text. I don't see how it's related to what I'm talking about because I'm talking about how the game master is revising something that happened in a game while we're reading it and while the game is being played without red. Like the duct tape.

The whole point of that theory was that the Game Master could use any plan that wasn't forbidden by the red text, which implies that they could change their plan at will as long as it didn't violate the red (and possibly Battler's perspective, since we didn't have a "detective" then).

[UsagiTenpura]

I'm going to add that in the anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy letter Ryukishi explained very clearly how even the writer could write up a new truth afterward, with his example of a sequel to Higurashi arc 2-5 that would explain a new truth about it. Basically he made a point that even in a tale where we usually believe the truth we discover is absolute and unchanging, it can be changed by the writer afterward.