[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Problem is that letting somebody who shares your body temporarily deactivate you (but not to the point that you couldn't potentially reawaken later) just doesn't obey the same linguistic constructs as would apply to independent biological entities engaging in murder or suicide or whatever you want to call it.

I'm starting to think that Shannon, Kanon and Beato are nothing more than Yasu's fantasies for which she used her body as vessel so that they could interact with others and be believed as real.

In short they're similar to Sakutarou.
For Maria he's real, alive and can die.
Featherine explains the way Sakutarou can die are:
- destroying his vessel
- Maria dying
- Maria stopping to play with him/denying his existence (well, that's what Ange does with the 7 sisters)

Note that Sakutarou was resurrected when Maria acceted another body as his vessel and Ange sort of resurrected the 7 sisters again when she decided to re-summon them.

The illusion of Shannon and Kanon being real is made perfect by the fact they didn't use a puppet body as vessel but a real human body so the illusion of them being real is way more marked than with Sakutarou, who's obviously moved and voiced by Maria (or the 7 sisters whose vessel is... well unmoving and not human shaped).

Note that in Ep 7 we can clearly guess that Shannon is Yasu's imaginary friend and when Yasu decided to become Beato it can be viewed as if she handed her body as vessel for Shannon who automatically becomes the... let's call it the official personality of Yasu.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Renall

And that's kind of the problem I see with Shkanontrice as it's apparently supposed to be viewed according to Ryukishi. Really, Beatrice is not "burning out" Shannon and Kanon's bulbs. She's just switching them off. They didn't go anywhere, they're just not active. This requires a whole new vocabulary to explain, as it isn't the normal context in which words like "dead" and "murdered" would be used. If you're going to co-opt those terms, you have to explain them. Ryukishi didn't do this because explaining new terms would draw attention to the fact that Shannon and Kanon are not being spoken of in the same context as biological entities. That's rather the point: It's cheating because to be honest would not allow the reader to be deceived properly.

Well, but that 'vocabulary' required to explain this concept is somehow presented. I think the concept of 'alive' and 'dead' was stressed in EPs 2 and 6 in various ways, like jjblue says.

[UsagiTenpura]

Is it possible that the narrative, mystery/fantasy, is entirely independent of the "logic" of the gameboard? Like there's no "mystery" or "fantasy" story, there's just one story (the narrative) which gradually becomes more and more fantasy while the who/how dunnit remains logic puzzles that are far closer to mystery.

To me it sounds like it could solve most problems concerning the why dunnits and the Shkanontrice reds.


Also, I wanted to say that Shannon and Kanon cannot "come back to life and die at will".
Even tho it's fantasy scenes, one has to happen, and has to play a role in the overall story that's going on.
We've never been presented with someone just popping back alive with no narration process leading there.


Edit: It'd be also interesting to compare something like perfect blue to Umineko. The main character has a messed up life leading them to have hallucinations but also is playing a role in a story who's lines and story happens to be very similar to her own real life. I'm bringing that up because there's a few times the movies showed a scene as if it was true to learn at the end that it's a cut for the movie they are making. Anyway, it feels like an influence on Umineko to me, but also might help to see Umineko in a different light. The story within a story aspect is much more clear.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by Renall

Then what possible reason does Shannon have for allowing Kanon to come back, and where does

Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.

Ryukishi is linguistically cheating. Something that can come back at any time isn't "dead" and it doesn't cease existing just because it's "inactive." And it certainly cannot be "murdered."Because people do not do incredibly specific and completely meaningless things for no apparent reason just to satisfy some character they don't even know's logic puzzles.

I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened
[/QUOTE]

[Renall]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.
I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened

What precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?

Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes.

As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)

I think the ultimate proof of this is at when Beatrice finishes giving the guns to the siblings in EP7, she is shown to sit down and not move at all. Her body is not dead, but at that point all three personalities are effectively dead. Once that happens, she won't make any moves, physical or verbal from then on.

I think perhaps if someone is an artist, we would need a picture of the body Yasu, dressed as Shannon with wig and all, holding a smoking pistol but with an evil smile like Beatrice. This would perhaps sum up what has been going on the best.

Anyways... let me finish writing up the quotes I've gathered... I think if you read through those again, the picture would become much clearer, if it hasn't already become clear from my Final Culprit Theory.

[GuestSpeaker]

I don't consider "prime" and "Ange's world" to be the same thing at all, but yeah I think in Ange's world that's right, it was an accident. I made a long post at one point as of why it was the only conclusion for Ange's world that was supported by anything at all. To resume the most major points : It's what the official investigation said, and the only ones who think/claim it's murder are the Witchhunters which I compared to the conspiracy theorists of our own world.

Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?

Also to whoever said real things can't die and come back, they sort of can. It is a semantics game, but with the classic cardiac definition of death (though it is disputed), people have been medically dead for periods of time. Sorry for the nitpick.

No opinions on my Erika trapping herself with her "where the body is" idea?


Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by Renall

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

There's is some kind of confirmation though. Jessica immediately recognized the voice as Kanon. There's no need for any kind of rules.

Anyway, Isn't it enough that he declare himself as dead person and only living a spirit? Just like how a real dead person have a spirit after death based on beliefs, a dead personality can also have a remnant left behind after it died. Similar to Toyah's case with Battler and Kotobuki/Hisashi Yukari with Ange. The red truth doesn't really obliterate the existence of the personality itself , It just didn't allow them to show that personality again to other people . But Jessica's case was different, at that time, she was blind and in state of panic . This allows whoeverplayingasKanonShannonBeatrice to deceive Jessica into believing that Kanon was a spirit and still dead.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

It is impossible for the actor to permanently kill those personalities inside his/her head but making other people believe that those personalities died can make a similar effect. For example, In Ep3, Battler and others saw Kanon's corpse inside the chapel. Dr. Nanjo did a fake autopsy and concluded that Kanon was dead. There's no way that they would know the autopsy was fake so they willingly believed what Dr. Nanjo said because he's a physician. Adding the fact that the actor will never shows up as Kanon again, enforced the truth that Kanon was really dead and be seen again walking again, at least base on everyone's subjectivity. It becomes a truth that everyone believes in making the Red truth Kanon was dead possible.

I hope you understand what i wrote here since i don't get it myself. English isn't my first language so it's hard to reply.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened

When I first went through Ep 3 with the belief it was solvable but that I should trust the reds I also thought that the resurrection of Shannon and Kanon might be fake... but when I slammed against the obvious fact that someone that was supposed to be dead was walking around and killing Nanjo.

So the problem is that Shannon&Kanon's body has to be alive and if vessel is alive Kanon and Shannon can be resurrected at will and this makes their 'dead status' completely different from... let's say Nanjo.

Originally Posted by Renall

What precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

That's why I'm starting to think that Kanon and Shannon are nothing more than Yasu's versions of Sakutaro, only they use Yasu's body as vessel and this makes other mistake them for real.

Though yes, this gives Ryukishi a lot of freedom as the rules for Kanon and Shannon's presence are pretty unclear.

For example it's likely that Maria acknowledge Sakutaro's presence each time she's with Sakutaro's vessel and says he's not there when she's without him and the only way to have Sakutaro's vessel around but not Sakutaro is to break Sakutaro's vessel so for Maria Sakutaro will be dead.

However if we take Ange and the seven sisters... when can be say that they're not with Ange or that they are with her? We've only Ange's word on that department.

And now back to Shannon and Kanon. They have a vessel and, if the vessel is witnessed and acts in a certain way it could be possible to say that 1 of them is present (it's impossible to say if the other is present as well though because the narrative might describe him/her as 'in the room but hidden from the view of the observer'). However technically it's possible to 'kill' Shannon and Kanon and have their vessel still move around and even fake their presence so just the vessel acting like one of them wouldn't assure us that they're there.
This trick makes Shannon and Kanon as elusive as the 7 sisters while at the same time using a vessel that's way better than Sakutaro and that allow them to be acknowledged as real.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?

Well you saw what happened on that day.
Everyone backstabbing each other for money and showing their ugliest side... and then they all died in an explosion. So... Eva has no more idea about the specifics of the explosion then anyone else, and anything she'd say about others would only make them look bad. No points in insulting the dead and Eva would probably be insulting her own self in the process.

It's thanks to her sacrifice that Battler was able to create arc 8 the way it was.

Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'

The statement about being the 18th human is sorta a title. It's not really any different from saying something like "I am the golden witch, Beatrice" in red (followed by something like "Im sorry there are no witches on this island").

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?

Perhaps. Do you have one?

Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes.

"Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that we're never given context for any declaration of death, making it entirely possible to believe that no one ever physically died even when the red claims they did. After all, the only explanation of death we've actually seen alluded to by the author is a death of personality which is inherently temporary. Why shouldn't we just believe every use of "dead" in red refers to temporary personality death? To muddle the story in this fashion is a serious error.

As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)

Yes, but that's philosophically worthless. If someone looks like Shannon but clearly by action isn't Shannon, that's one thing. However, if a character looks and acts like Shannon or Kanon, but can't reliably be said to actually be Shannon or Kanon (because they may just be Beatrice posing as them), then we've entered the territory of allowing the author to do whatever he wants whenever he wants by merely refusing to acknowledge or display any sort of internal logic which will permit us to know the difference.

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

[GuestSpeaker]

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.

My point is there is no appreciable difference between one and the other, so no matter what Ryukishi writes it as, he can claim it's something else.

Someone can go "So how did Kanon show up and talk to Jessica if he was dead?" and he can be like:

• He came back to life, because personalities can do that; or
• Oh it was just Beatrice, who is in the same body as him, using his voice and behaving exactly like him. But it wasn't him, I swear.

It's just stupid. It can be whatever he wants it to be to make his red work, and if he has to resort to undetectable existential cheating just to make red function, he's not very good at what he does.

Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.

Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?

He never clearly put foward any set of rules and specifically told us it was our job to figure them out, so how can you claim he broke them or changed them? Don't you have any doubt at all that it might be you who got it wrong? This reminds me of physics, when a formula stops working past a certain range it's not because physics are arbitrary beyond such a point, but that the formula you had, tho workable in a certain range, needs to be replaced by a better and more complete one.
From my opinion you never got past the formula of "typical mystery".

The one thing I'm personally angry at Ryuukishi at is actually that I feel the readers who enjoyed it the most aren't those who tried to solve it, and rather got into the fandom of the whole, with battle games, fanart, and cosplay, etc.


It'd be easier to accept a critic of an orange, if it was criticizing it as an orange, then as an apple.

[AuraTwilight]

Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?

Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.

[goldendust]

The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.

Also regarding the Shannon/Kanon personality trick is unfair. Keep in mind that Beatrice was capable of reveling and killing both Shannon/Kanon at will during the games, I think that was suppsoe to be the hint. As well that the two had a certain meta awareness as Beatrice. You cannot argue that Ryukishi did not display any indication that those pieces were different then the rest.

If you compare this to chess. Shannon/Kanon are the witches' pieces that have basically the ability to turn off and on. We seen that certain pieces can be given ability that can be considered cheating. Erika as Bernkastel's piece has full meta awareness and the detective authority. For the human side that is pretty much cheating if you consider how little Battler had.


You know when I first watched the anime first, I had the impression that the culprit(s) was impersonating a few of the characters since Rosa brought up the point of "are you really Rudolf's son?". My first theory was that Genji=Kinzo and Kanon=Shannon. Granted it seems silly now but that is how I thought the solution to the first game and second game could be explained. That they "killed" one of the characters to allow one free rein to commit more murders.

Originally Posted by Renall

Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.[/b].

Although that Jessica was blind was suppose to be a pretty large indication that was not Kanon as well that it was a fantasy scene. I would agree if that it was BS if we seen Kanon.

Also being Jessica scared, lonely, and grieving from her parents' death could not be that hard to fool. If you think about it. If you think that culprit was talking to Jessica, there is only short list of people that are able to impersonate Kanon.

The culprit having a significant voice range was a given since Beatrice's voice did not ring any bells when people heard her in game 2 and in game 4.

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules [b]that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define

Well I do wonder if that was the point of the logic error. If you think that Battler wrote himself into a corner with red and using Shannon/Kannon trick to get himself out of it despite commenting that it does not seem very mystery seems to be what some people have a problem with Umineko.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.

That does being up a thought.

Lets say you play chess with one person. You shows him most moves but neglects to mention other moves that pieces can do leading to win every match. Is that really cheating or just within certain information to keep an advantage? You did not really break any rules.

I do think that is basically what Ryukishi/Beatrice's game was. A chess-like game completely made by her allowing her to create/reveal the rules or even bend them on a technicality.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Perhaps. Do you have one?

Yeah, three personalities existing in one body, but personalities can commit suicide or be told by another personality to cease to exist. (Abandoned, dead, future cut off, perhaps would be more accurate.)

Originally Posted by Renall

"Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.

The problem is you're thinking of normal people and how normal people define death. You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death, especially death for 'furniture.'

Ahh... nvm.. I'm going to cut short this reply and get back to working on the mega post I have lined up. You should really consider what the quotes I will have in EP1 and 2 are saying first, and see if you can come up with a different perspective. (Something apparently EP4 had been saying alllll over the text, but I'll get to those EPs in another post.)

Originally Posted by Renall

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

By the way, is it entirely possible to solve the detective mysteries (the closed room murders and so on) in the story without Shkannon?

What if the Shkannon hints are only for the greater mystery of the culprit and not for the detective mystery hijinks? I'm re-reading EP4 and it struck me at one point with Ange(Gretel), Battler and Beatrice's discussion at how useless the red, blue and gold texts are for solving anything other than the greater mystery of Shannon's situation.

Because if you think about it, using red text to solve a detective mystery would technically be a violation of typical detective fiction, not to mention Knox rules. I think more than a few people have posted that on here. I'm starting to think it's not just a violation, but useless.

To the detective mysteries, perhaps all text ends up being 'black.'

EDIT:

Originally Posted by goldendust

The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.

I didn't read to the end before I posted. 8)

Anyways, I'll try to post that mega post tonight since I'm nearly done. I hope there's no message length limit on here. 8)

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death

Who is Beato?

Originally Posted by Beatrice

I am Beatrice, the Endless witch!

Virgilia talks about Endless magic, and how it affects Beato's mind. How Beato sees it as "nothing more than two sides of a coin that she can just flip over"

[Kylon99]

Umineko Comprehensive EP1-2

I've gone through EP1 and 2 looking for specific clues now that we know The Answer as I outlined in a few posts awhile back. I was looking for places where Yasu, who wrote EP1-2, wrote her thoughts on topics like, "Humans are XXXX" or "When we were children we were ABC, but as we grew into Adults we were XYZ" as opposed to narrative, action or mystery. Of course there's even more hints about the specifics of the murders and so on, but I put those elsewhere as we already kind of know the answers for those. (I suppose I'll post those elsewhere one day.)

First, you should actually read the answer I posted or else nothing will make sense.

Spoiler for Umineko Final Culprit Theory:

These were the original posts explaining the secret that Yasu holds, which explains why she behaves the way she does.

First, an explanation of brain injuries, especially how they pertain to Tooya. The summary is that people who have suffered brain injuries notice a distinct difference between themselves before and after and results in them thinking that they are a new, different person. Or personality.

Second, the theory on what Yasu is. The summary is that Yasu is not simply crazy or pretending. She has a problem with self-identity most likely caused by a brain injury and then growing up without any reference points to what is normal. She creates several personalities which live by their own rules that trap her, such as how Beatrice can only exist on the island. Ultimately, 'Yasu' is not the name of any personality at all and at best it's a convenient name to represent the body itself. The only real parts of herself are Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon. In addition, she changes greatly when she realizes this, where she goes from an innocent child-like existence to a bitter and tortured one. She is forced to confront reality.

Third, some consequences and evidence on the theory. Too much to list here, but includes ideas like, this is why Shannon couldn't leave the island, why they all feel like furniture and why Beatrice turned from the innocent one we saw in EP7 to the bitter and cruel one in EP1-4.

The Answer

We've known since the Author Theory that Yasu wrote her thoughts and situation she wanted someone (especially Battler) to figure out right into the text, so this is really just picking through and identifying what's there. I was able to slot everything into two main themes for EP1 and 2, Adults vs. Children and some narrative or hints about Beatrice and Shannon's situation. I want to point out that I'm not really making a 'theory' here; rather, I am simply organizing the two largest themes presented in EP1 and EP2 and letting them speak for themselves. When I looked at the notes, it looked like Shannon and Beatrice's entire story and the solution lay bare, right there, on the page for us.

Spoiler for The quick summary...:

The quick summary is that Shannon is the culprit. Her reason for killing everyone is to release herself from her fate of being trapped on the island, in near slavery to the Ushiromiya family since she cannot quit the job or leave the island and the high pay is of no benefit to her in any way. This is written very plainly in Episode 2. She frees herself by getting Beatrice to go through with the Epitaph Ceremony, which to all of them, including Kanon, is a real magic spell. Both Beatrice and Shannon are playing the Epitaph Ceremony *straight*. Because Beatrice is Yasu's personality of a real witch, in Beatrice's mind she actually IS a witch and her performance of magic is effective. Shannon is acquainted with Beatrice and both believe the ceremony will be effective in freeing Shannon, albeit, freeing her to her death or "the day of rest" as Kanon calls it, although her growing love for George causes her to regret the coming end like a regular human.

From what I've seen of the text, Umineko is basically solvable with just EP1 and 2 with respect to who the culprit is based on these gathered quotes, so long as you don't completely discard the white text or think the white text is some kind of lie. Basically, read what Beatrice/Shannon have told us in the text not as some kind of delusion or fantasy but read it straight, as in this is how she thinks, despite how unrealistic it may seem.
I've tried my best to summarize each quote without injecting opinion or any theories and stick to confirmed answers. I'll wrap this in several layers of spoilers as there is a huge amount of text. The quotes are taken from the text of EP1 and 2, so it's not like you need to re-read it if you remember the scene in question. They will serve as a refresher and reminder for those of us who haven't gone through EP1-2 again. (I was surprised at how much I've forgotten, or just plain ignored! 8) )

Spoiler for Theme 1: Adult vs. Child:

This section is interesting and somewhat relevant to Beatrice's development, but since this message is already too long, I will post this in a separate message.

Spoiler for Theme 2: Beatrice and Shannon:

This theme represents Shannon's entire story, if you read all of these quotes in order. EP1 ends up showing how Shannon is stuck on the island, but the most revealing bits come straight from EP2, where Shannon's entire plan and justification (if you could call it that) is outlined. I've compiled both statements about Beatrice and Shannon together.

Spoiler for EP1 Mysteries regarding romance are deeper than detective mysteries.:

Kyrie to Battler: "Fufufu, can great detectives deduce the emotions and feelings between men and women? They can't, right? Figuring out the feelings of the opposite sex is an even more advanced art than exposing the tricks in difficult crime cases. If you ask me, romance novels have much deeper mysteries than masterpiece mystery novels."

Spoiler for EP1 Shannon worked for 10 years because she cannot quit.:

Working as a servant for the Ushiromiya family was a heavy burden to bear, but the pay wasn't bad at all.Working for a full three years would earn more than what was needed to enter mainstream society.That was why, even though the graduates from the orphanage realized what a harsh task working for the Ushiromiya family was, they still hoped to be accepted.
Maybe the fact that Shannon had managed to continue for more than ten years shouldn't be viewed as her having more willpower than any of the other servants.Maybe she was made to continue working for ten years because she didn't have the courage to say that she wanted to quit.
To Kinzo, who could not even trust his own blood relatives, those 'excellent' servants sent from the Fukuin House were the only ones he could trust.

Spoiler for EP1 George doesn't understand why Shannon doesn't leave and continues to work. He thinks she's trying to save money.:

"Have you continued working to try and meet some target sum?"
".........Y, ...yes, that's right. ......I have nowhere to go outside of this mansion. ......I have been getting along well with Milady and the other servants' children, too.........I am sometimes scolded by Madam, but, ......caring for the rose garden and cleaning the mansion is fun..."
"But, that isn't Shannon-chan's, ......no, Sayo(紗代)-chan's life."
".........Umm..."
Shannon cast her eyes downwards when she heard her real name...

Spoiler for EP1 George guesses correctly that Shannon had been living an unchanging, monotonous, unsatisfying life on the island.:

"Even after becoming an adult and a full-fledged member of society, I've been studying and I've learned something. ......A human's life is not as monotonous or short as we thought when we were kids."
When they are students, everyone has certain fears that they can't shake.......Wondering whether they will live the rest of their lives like they were in sleepy classes after a monotonous and boring school day, spending their time in a carefree laziness without anything interesting happening until it was all over...
However, these thoughts will only arise while a person is still an underage student.
Compared to a human's life, the time they spend as a student is nothing more than a blink of the eye, a period where they break through the shells of their immaturity.The inside of the shell might be a hot, suffocating and boring world, but the world beyond that shell is vast and filled with limitless possibilities.
"So far, you have been living inside your shell. Aren't you making the mistake of thinking that your life will always continue like this?"
"That is......, .................."
Shannon couldn't deny those words....
She hadn't been able to doubt her way of life, and since she never had any hope or goal to change herself, she had continued her life of idleness.
...And if she were asked whether this life was satisfying, ...she wouldn't have been able to nod......This might have caused her to avert her eyes from the truth....As long as she wasn't admonished by George, she would have continued pretending not to notice as her real life slipped away, neglected, bit by bit...
"......George-sama.............Should I not, ......continue living, ...this way?"
"You must not. Ah, and by the way, didn't you break one of the rules just now?"
George immediately gave a strict answer, and then broke out into a mischievous smile. Shannon already knew what she was being chided for, ...and it seemed that it embarrassed her, as she hung her head.

Spoiler for EP1 The point where George proposes is the ‘culmination’ of their relationship. Culmination means this is the high point and everything will be worse from now on.:

"I probably can't order you to wear it on your left hand. You might be timid and dependent enough to actually obey that kind of an order. ......But I want this last part to be given by Sayo's own will. ...Understand?"
"............Y, .........yes."
"So, ...that's my order. .........I want you to think about it well tonight and show me your answer tomorrow."
"..............."
Shannon nodded back.
...Today was the culmination of their long relationship....This moment had not come as any surprise to Shannon...

Spoiler for EP1 Again, the proposal is the high point in her life.:

"......So I handed her the engagement ring, and then, ......it was all over."
"......A sense of value varies with the person. ......But being proposed to by a man, .........can, in a way, be the high point of a girl's life. ...So I'm sure. Last night, I think Shannon was, from the bottom of her heart, ......no, more than she ever had been since she was born, truly happy..."

Spoiler for EP1 The magic circle provides freedom from Shannon's bonds. It is not used for the murders; instead, the murders served to power magic circle.:

"It's a magic circle to borrow the power of the sun. ......He who wears it as a talisman drawn in gold shall be able to break free from the bonds of any prison, and receive the power to gain freedom."
"...Break free from the bonds, ......gain freedom...? It sounds deep..."
"The word 'bonds' is not limited in its interpretation to some kind of physical object. ...Therefore it does not only hold meaning for people locked up in an actual jail. It can also refer to the release from mental bonds such as ties of obligation and inescapable fate."
"......Ties of obligation and, inescapable fate, ......you say? ...That's also pretty deep."
"But I really don't understand... What does this have to do with those six bodies? ...Far from bein' released, they were killed and stuffed in a storehouse, weren't they?!"
"It's not like the magic circle was drawn for their sakes. The six of them were there for the sake of the magic circle. It is truly pitiable. ...Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi."

Spoiler for EP1 Beatrice is only a fraction of a person.:

......However, it's impossible for there to be anything after the decimal point. You shouldn't be able to show the number of people with anything but an integer....And yet, 19>X>18.How do you explain the fraction less than 1...!
It's no wonder....That 19th person was something...... that couldn't be seen...... That's why, since you can only write the number of people as an integer,you couldn't see that person......
That witch cannot be seen.Because Beatrice has no body.Therefore, she is invisible.
Is there a 19th person, or not?Does the witch exist, or not?19>X>18....The witch exists somewhere in that X...!

Spoiler for EP1 The second magic circle is for the second effect, giving you a solution you hadn't thought of, not for opening a locked door. The magic circle gives Beatrice and Shannon the power to think of a way to escape her situation.:

“The words are from the Old Testament, Psalms 107 verse 16. …...’For he has broken gates of brass and cuts through bars of iron’. …...This magic circle has two effects. First, it can open a door regardless of which method has been used to lock it.”
“That sure is convenient magic. ...So you’re saying that they’re trying to make it look like they’re a witch because this closed room has a door that can’t be opened without relying on magic...?! And the other effect?!”
"When you are blocked in every direction, it finds an unopened door and opens it. ......By using it in a difficult situation, it gives you a solution you hadn't even thought of until then. To put it simply, you receive the power of observation and the power of discernment, inspiration and intuition. ............Kihihihihihihihihihi.

Spoiler for EP1 The two days are the only times every year where there are enough people for the sacrifice. This year is the only chance left the ceremony can be performed. If Kinzo’s death is revealed, the family won’t gather on the island again and not enough people will be there, ever. Shannon will be trapped forever.:

"...How many people are normally on this island?!"
"It, ...it changes depending on the shifts for the servants, but there's Father, my husband, me and Jessica. And two or three servants. ...Today and yesterday, there were five of them, but there aren't normally that many."
"Which means that normally, ......there wouldn't be enough sacrifices to carry out this 'ceremony'. ......No, wait. ......There's that rumor that Grandfather was collecting servants from an orphanage to be used as sacrifices in some creepy ceremony..."
"So what does this mean?! He increased the number of servants to increase the number of sacrifices, ......and waited for the annual family conference when even more people would gather......Isn't now the only time of the year that this ceremony could be held?!"

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon’s life was spent in Rokkenjima, which was like a glass bowl she was unaware of. Although the more common metaphor is a bird in a cage.:

"Certainly, this might not be the real sea. ...But, if those little guys swimming in there believe that it's the sea, then to them it certainly is the sea."
"Even though they're inside a finite tank?"
"The sea is finite too. But, even if the sea were infinite, how much could we cover in our whole lives? I'm sure that it would only be a miniscule fraction of the sea."
"...Certainly. It's ironic, isn't it? Even though the world is so vast, most of us live our lives without ever leaving our own country."
"If they believe that this place is a complete world, then it would be a wonderful world, a sea...even if it were in the bottom of a narrow well. ...A sea in the eyes of the frogs that live there."
Shannon, who spent her days as a servant on a small island 10 kilometers in circumference called Rokkenjima, said that with a smile.

Spoiler for EP2 To Shannon, the fact that the date came true became the proof that the magic payed off.:

"Then, our relationship happened thanks to your believing heart. Magic dwells in the power of feeling. So, I'm sure that magic has brought us together."
".........You're right. ...I really think, ......that this is truly magic."
"But, you know, that's not quite right. Every time we met, the Shannon within my heart kept becoming more and more beautiful. If the same thing happened to you, then the fact that we are here today is simply an inevitable consequence, rather than something caused by magic or a miracle."
"...............No. A miracle did happen, George-sama." She stopped walking on the beach, gazing beyond the sea.
" ......A miracle?"
"No, magic. ...It happened."
I was bewildered by that slightly mysterious expression, which I sometimes heard her use.
"......Magic, you say?"
"Yes, magic..........Even if I say it, you probably won't believe me, so I won't say it. But, that magic definitely had the power to grant the miracle which caused you and I to meet each other."
"You mean, like a good-luck charm?"
"Yes. Maybe it was something like that. ...Except that it wasn't a charm, ...it really was magic."
"...Hmm?"
Shannon wasn't the only one who'd want to credit an encounter on a miracle or serendipity, it might be a universal thing all girls share.

Spoiler for EP2 Since this follows from above: Because one magic succeeded, she dreamed that there would be other magic that would let her become a full person. And that became her suffering.:

The sound of waves soaked into my ears....No, this was the sound of enraged waves.My body, bathed in painfully cold splashes, did not allow me to forget.
It wouldn't let me forget the memories of the day when my old fate was broken and smashed.
In the past, tomorrows were literally like a mirror to me.
The person I am now, was always projected there.......It was a tomorrow absolutely no different from today.That was my old fate.
...But at that moment, for the first time, I saw a different fate beyond the mirror.
The witch whispers.She tempts me to take a bite out of the fruit of knowledge.She torments me, saying that as long as I stay in the paradise of god, I'll remain furniture.
So I try to choose to know love, and become a person.......Those days were like sweetly melting honey, .......but then, I hadn't realized that they were the beginning of the days filled with a new kind of suffering.......

Spoiler for EP2 She knew that to go ahead with the spell was wrong and some part fought against it.:

By now, ......I must break this mirror.
Until today, I had fought for many days.Inside my heart, the virtuous part of me and the part that sided with the witch repeatedly fought each other.
And now, here I am.

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon is aware that she shouldn’t, but George’s love and a future life is too tempting.:

I had forgotten. I am furniture. Furniture isn't human. So I am a being who must feel gratitude for even being treated like a human, and I am not permitted to wish for anything more.
Even if people develop affection for furniture that they're used to using, that is an emotion on the human's side, and the furniture's side has no right to hope for that.......They should just serve with simple honesty every day.
But that feeling I felt when talking with George-sama and Jessica-sama, ...is a forbidden drug for me.

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon's life wasn't actually pleasant considering she could not leave and the extra pay was useless. She can only be rescued.:

"Y, .........yes, Madam."
"That is good. Servants should endeavor to only use those words. The next time you talk back, I will give you an even more severe punishment, so with that in mind, engrave these words in your heart."
"Yes..., Madam. ...Thank you for your guidance."
"You are welcome."
As Natsuhi acted like her headache was troubling her, she headed off down the corridor...
When she couldn't see her anymore, Shannon hung her head and sighed.......She had been careless, so something like this had happened.
Even though I'm bad at everything I do, I should be able to at least carry out the cleaning as well as an average person can, right? It's because I can't even perform that well, ...that I'm so shameful and crying.
What could be more shameful than this?
Not only have I been unable to perform a single bit of cleaning well, but just now, when Natsuhi was scolding me.........I was envisioning that person appearing and rescuing me.
If only George-sama were here. Would he casually step in and save me?
I'm sure he would show up cheerfully, intentionally acting like he doesn't know what's going on, nimbly change the subject, and make me forget I was ever rebuked by Natsuhi...

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon is incapable of hatred or anger. It is not part of her personality and likely given to the other two.:

The expression on Kanon's face was, ...hatred. He made that expression for Shannon, who didn't know how to do it herself...

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice is Shannon’s master, and she tells her her secrets.:

So she thought of the portrait of her other master as that person herself, and always treated it carefully, treasuring it....And telling the witch that only existed inside the portrait the secrets of her heart had become part of her daily routine.

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon knows of love, but is not person enough to have it.:

As Shannon wiped the dust from the witch's portrait, she spoke that inside her heart.
.........I certainly am incompetent and uncultured, just as Eva-sama said.......I am not a person....So maybe I have no right to love.........But in that case, why was I given a heart which can know love?
...At that point, Shannon held back her tears for a time.

Spoiler for EP2 Because Shannon knows love, she also knows of suffering. In that way she ‘becomes’ human. (Even if she is not a full person.):

"Your worries are due to love. ......Which is the single element of the world. In other words, everything of this world. ......When that is not fulfilled, it means the world is not fulfilled. It is like continually scooping water into a flask with a hole in it. ......Even if you scoop and scoop, it is never filled, an eternal desert of the heart. The original sin that humans are founded upon and everything is made of."
"Understand? What Adam and Eve learned when they put the fruit of knowledge to their lips was love. ...Because of that, humans were chased out of the garden and became 'human'. Which means that what makes one human is knowing love and suffering. ......You are a girl with a kind heart. You should be praised. Now that you have known that, you are no longer furniture. You are now 'human'. I recognize that upon my name."

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice owns the gold but would give it to Shannon to fulfill her wish.:

"It comes down to this. If you take action and break that annoying mirror for me, as a reward, I will grant you your wish."
"......I am in a very good mood today. If you want to, you may change your wish, and I can give you all of the gold I bestowed upon Kinzo, alright? *cackle*cackle*!"

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice knows Shannon is trapped and gives her a chance to break that trap.:

"What I will do is nothing more than give you a chance to fulfill your feelings as a reward. ......It's up to you whether you try to break it or not. If you break it, I will grant your wish."
"If you don't break it, the tomorrows up until today will continue for all eternity. Your wish will not be granted for all eternity. ......Do you understand? What I am saying? *cackle*cackle*."

Spoiler for EP2 From the point when she decided on George’s love and conceived of the way to escape, she was tormented on whether she should act or not.:

She had left a mark to make it impossible for them to think that this was a daydream.As Shannon and Kanon thought back on the butterfly bruises on their hands, and the pain they had felt when those had been left there, they kept standing still, in shock............
And from that day on.........Shannon was tormented by days of suffering and conflict.........

Spoiler for EP2 As per Ryukishi interview, Shannon was expecting more on that night, ergo also being found out, ergo also having let fate decide her decision for her. If she was found out, she may not have needed to enact the Epitaph Ceremony.:

"Like I said, this overnight trip was so you could overcome that stage, right?! You're already at the level of things like kissing and hugging, right?!"
"M, Milady, I don't know what you mean by that.... G, George-sama was a real gentleman with me until the end. That is, I mean, ...... I also, ...wondered if those things would happen, you know, ...but we, even though we are going out, I mean, it, it's not that we are married or anything..."

Spoiler for EP2 Knowing love can make you human.:

Shannon understood it clearly.Knowing love was the same as gaining a soul. ...And therefore she was born again from furniture to a human.There was absolutely nothing wrong with Beatrice's words. ......By knowing love, Shannon had learned what it was to be human.

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon had already started trying to become human and was showing Kanon how to become one too.:

"...You can too, Kanon-kun. ......You can become a normal human.""..................Stop it, that's the witch talking."
"Yes. Beatrice-sama taught me. ......By gaining the single element of the world, we can become human. No, nobody's human if that isn't satisfied. ......So people spend their entire lives trying to gain that single element."
"I don't understand what you're saying, Nee-san. I don't want to listen to ranting."

Spoiler for EP2 Kanon, and thus Yasu realizing that other normal humans also have alternate personalities, like Jessica. She has an alternate personality for the world outside of Rokkenjima.:

Don't I know best that during her life on Rokkenjima, she'd had no choice but to kill her sense of self?
Then the time she spent, ...not as Milady, the successor to the Ushiromiya family, but as a single girl called Jessica, living life to the fullest, must have been very important to her....I worked close to Milady, saw her in all seasons, and I thought I knew everything about her....But that was only limited to one side of her, Milady of Rokkenjima.
......We are furniture.We serve on Rokkenjima, and end our lives on Rokkenjima....So I had come to think that Rokkenjima itself was our whole world, as though, like in Ptolemaic theory, the ocean spilled off the end of the world into an abyss.But when I look at Milady like this, I realize that this is a horribly narrow outlook.
...I still can't go along with the excitement of the crowd....But I feel like I can see something that 'cannot be seen' on Rokkenjima..........I don't know if this is the unseeable thing Shannon was talking about...But I still can't see the ocean as blue...

Spoiler for EP2 Jessica encourages to Kanon to choose a future for himself as a human. This further encourages the tragedy.:

"Kanon-kun, you think that your own fate is everything and you gave up. I can't accept this kind of fate, so I do the best I can. ......So in addition to the constrained part of me that must act as the daughter of the Ushiromiya family, I've created another part of me that can do everything I like."
".........Another part, of yourself."
"Yeah. ......Kanon-kun, you've been instructed to say 'because I am furniture'. ......I'm sure there's been many things that have been tough just because you've been instructed that way. ...I think that's, ......really unfortunate. .........But the thought that your entire life will be decided by that, I think that's just sad."
"........................"

Spoiler for EP2 Kanon remarks how he (and thus Yasu) is essentially a bird in a cage. This is a major metaphor and came up with the aquarium and will again with Beatrice-2.:

"...You are a human Milady. So you are free to live any way you like, and any kind of future is possible for you. It's almost like you have wings and can dance through the sky like a bird. But I am not like that. Even if I looked like a bird, I'd be nothing more than a domestic duck. ......Even though they have wings, they cannot fly."
"But despite that, to speak of that dream in the sky, ......that's just, ...too cruel...!"
"...Furniture and ducks!! What the hell is all this!! ............No, ..."Jessica had unconsciously gone along with Kanon's forceful manner of speaking, but she realized that she shouldn't fire back, and swallowed her words.
"............I don't know anything about you. I don't even know your upbringing, and I don't know the hardships you've been through. ...So I can't even imagine why you started calling yourself furniture."
"......But know this. You aren't furniture or a duck. You're a real human."
"........................"
"If you want to say that the Kanon-kun working as a servant is furniture, that's alright. ......But, ...in that case, ......don't you think that you can make a part of yourself for when you aren't furniture, when you're human?"
"......Only a human like Milady can embrace that possibility. ...I am not like that. My future and possibilities, aren't even a dream I am supposed to see. ............So, Milady. Please don't, ...say any more, ......cruel things......"

Spoiler for EP2 George has expectations of constructing a life and family around her, which Shannon knows is impossible. As opposed to Battler who would just rescue Shannon from the island (so she thought).:

"...Umm, ...wh, ...what.........do you mean by that, George-san...?"
"I mean what I said. ......I still haven't built up my castle. Once I can do that, for the first time, I will be able to think of myself as an adult. ......When that happens, I want to marry you."
"......Th, ......that's, umm, ......err..."
"But, my heart won't let me do that anymore. ......So I want to give you an engagement ring."
"E, ...engagement, ......you say... But, umm, ......I, ......am, ...............furniture........."
"Maybe that's true. And furniture has to listen to what people say. ...Now, I will have a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. I think I'll probably bring it to the family conference coming up soon. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."
"......If you accept my engagement proposal, I will proclaim right there, to all of the relatives, including Grandfather, my engagement to you."
"G, ......George-san............"
"I'm sure some people won't approve of our relationship. ...But, there's no need to look at their faces. ...Because you only have to fill your eyes with me."
"I will definitely make you happy. That, I promise you, definitely."

Spoiler for EP2 Women, (like Beatrice and Shannon) can become totally different people just with a change of heart.:

"Is that Maria...? You sure have gotten big... She's at that growing age...""You last met her six years ago, right? A lot has changed. Women are animals that are born again in only one day when they have a change of heart."

Spoiler for EP2 Kanon could want to do something, but only Beatrice can perform the actual magic.:

Kanon realized this, but he didn't know what he should do...
"That's right.........I'll exchange it for something I received earlier."Kanon remembered that a similar candy which he had received from Maria was in his pocket.
Maria stuck out her hand.......Kanon thought she was trying to take it, so he held out the candy, but Maria didn't try to grasp it.
......Then Kanon realized....She was saying 'Give it back'.
......No matter how tragic and trampled it was, the candy was Maria's....Her mother had bought it for her.No matter how tragic, it had to be this candy...If it could be made clean by dusting it off......Kanon hung his head.
".........I can't do anything except dust it off. .........Sorry."Kanon held out the miserable candy she wanted. Maria took it, and spoke.
"...Thank you. A human can't do anything except dust it off, but a witch can repair it to how it was. It would be easy for Beatrice. Kihihihihihi."
".........Maria-sama, ...you know about Beatrice..., ...sama?"
There couldn't be anyone related to the Ushiromiya family who didn't know Beatrice's name, with Battler as an exception....

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice and thus Shannon could remain a bird in a cage forever, which is what happens should Beatrice fail in her Epitaph Ceremony.:

The hallway in front of Kinzo's study was filled with the scent of sweet poison particular to that green liquor...Genji, who was completely used to it, did not grimace....And the Golden Witch didn't grimace either.
"......How long has he been inside here without leaving?"
"I believe it has already been several years."
"............Did he want to make me a bird in a cage that much? How pitiful. ......Now you, the person who wished that, are the bird in a cage. ...Aren't you the ghost of the study? ......What a pitiful man to not recognize that."
"......He would probably continue his research until the day he could meet you again, even until he literally became a ghost."
"Is it love or madness or a delusion? ...If those are well enough developed, will they become magic? ......You sad magician."
The witch grasped the doorknob to the study.
......When she did, there was a sound like that of flesh burning and splitting open....It was the sound of the doorknob literally burning the witch's hand.
"......Beatrice-sama..."
"What is this. .........A magic repellent! ...Is that person unable to get by without relying on something like this...?"
"...I have heard that this door is painful for you, Beatrice-sama. Shall I open it...?"
"No, ...it is fine. If he wins, I will be a bird in a cage for all eternity. ...If he loses, only the life of a laughing stock will be left, the life of a pitiful magician who went mad with love and lost everything."

The message was too long and so I had to split it.
The quotes continue here.

[Kylon99]

This is the continuation of the quotes regarding Beatrice and Shannon.
The original post can be found here.

Spoiler for Theme 2: Beatrice and Shannon:

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice’s Epitaph Ceremony will release the two from their suffering as furniture. But the ceremony will be extremely difficult on Shannon.:

"......This day, ......that Shannon should have been waiting impatiently for, will probably force upon her very harsh thoughts, ......and give her emotions that she must not know. .........I thank you for bringing me, ...us furniture the day of our release as a present."
"......And, I hate you for making this day difficult for Shannon to accept...!"
"I wanted to make you feel pain from your regrets as well, just like Shannon. ......However, you continued to be like furniture with foolish honesty, and didn't get ensnared by me."
".........However, it looks like you loved Shannon too dearly, right? *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! Shannon's regrets became your regrets. ......Will that become hatred for me...?"
"........................"
"If you want to kill me, try to do it. ......*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! As Kinzo's furniture, you should have at least that much power, right? However, if you kill me, the day of rest for the furniture will not come for all eternity. ......Could you withstand that......? Can you really reject your release by me......? *cackle*cackle*cackle*!! .........Kneel!"
"Wh, ......what...!"
"Kneel and kiss my shoes. .........Otherwise, I will leave this place. ...I'll go back and never show myself again for all eternity. ............So, Kanon? Could you withstand that...?"
"...............Ku......"
"If the door to the Golden Land is opened, your life as furniture that has been full of hardship will end. ......If you desire, I will even give you life as a human. After that, you will be on the same level as Jessica! Surely you want to know of it, the taste of love...!"

Spoiler for EP2 Indeed, Beatrice is not human and Kyrie realizes that her assumptions that she is may be wrong. On the island, Beatrice is a witch.:

No matter what she did, Kyrie couldn't help think of that smile that had appeared on that woman's face as anything other than a thing of misfortune......
It feels like my chessboard thinking mistook a vital premise, ...now that I try to understand that smile of misfortune.
...That's right, that smile seemed like that of something not human looking down on me.I have reasoned based on the assumption that my opponent was a 'human' like us.......However, just like this island now, she may be a being that is not human, and human values may not matter for her.
In that case.........all reasoning is useless.For what reason has the witch been invited here today?

Spoiler for EP2 George dreams to build a family with Shannon. :

"I have a dream. It isn't only an ambition to become the leader of my own domain in business. I also have a dream to build a family together with a partner I can spend my life with."
"...I want two kids at the very least. And I'd like to do some sports that the whole family could do together. And many more things besides that. I often talk with Shannon about that kind of thing. .........Although every time I talk about that sort of thing, Shannon always laughs and says I'm getting ahead of myself."
"...For some reason, even at the age I am now, I've started having some calmer thoughts like I'm in my old age. ......Healthy grown kids, and grandchildren running around. If only I could spend the rest of my life at a slow pace, surrounded by that, and together with Shannon forever."
"You're definitely getting ahead of yourself. ......But, how should I say it, it sounds like you, George nii-san."
"Being surrounded by that family would probably be so wonderful. ......The ideal family that I've painted in my mind is something like that."
...To Shannon, who had been raised in an orphanage, that harmonious image of a family was probably something she yearned after.......And George, who promised that he would definitely grant that wish for her, was surely a fitting person for her to spend her life with...

Spoiler for EP2 The plan all along was for Shannon and Kanon to be released through the ceremony, but there was a chance Shannon would not go through with it because of her love for George.:

So I thought. ...I thought that day of rest wouldn't come for all eternity."
".........That's what I thought! But I believed that it would definitely come someday! So I never forgot that I am furniture! But Nee-san, you forgot that!"
"..................It's, ......my fault, isn't it...............I'm......"
"Yeah, it's your fault, Nee-san. ......If only you hadn't known love.........we would both be happy that this day has finally come! You built up shameless regrets! Even though it was a world that you must not leave!!"
"...............Will the ceremony, ...begin tonight...?"
"...Yes. ...............Then, she said this to me. ...Tonight, George-sama will probably give you an engagement ring, Nee-san."
"........................"
That was a fact.......George should have snuck in an engagement ring in his pocket today.......And surely, he would hand it over tonight.
"......She joined you together, planning to use you and George-sama as the sacrifices of the second twilight. ...Understand? By tempting you, Nee-san, she took advantage of you!"
"............That's right. ......I never thought of that."
"But she told me. ...She promised that if you don't accept the engagement ring tonight, you won't be chosen as a sacrifice, Nee-san. ............I think that our chances of being able to go to the Golden Land together are very slim.
There will be 13 people as sacrifices. Only five people will be left alive. ...The chances of us being a part of that group are really slim. ......However, if only you, Nee-san, can take advantage of that promise, those chances rise higher! I want to take that bet!
Our salvation is in the Golden Land. If we can make it that far, we can become human. And I want to walk through life as a human, together with you, Nee-san...! If we do that, we might be able to achieve, ......true love!"
"...........................In the past, we used to dream about being able to go to the Golden Land. .........If we go there, any wish will be granted. .........We will be saved from this pain. ............We believed that."
However, in this ceremony, only a few people, decided by fate and chance, would be invited to the Golden Land.......

Spoiler for EP2 Ultimately Beatrice is in control of the house over and above Krauss and Natsuhi. All the servants obey her orders.:

For an instant, Gohda was startled to find everyone's gazes gathered on him, but because of his naturally vain personality, this actually gave him a feeling of superiority.Therefore, he answered in an extremely calm and graceful manner.
"......Yes. Because that person wanted to eat alone in the honored guest room, their food was carried over there."Therefore, Gohda's extremely graceful and reasonable response made it obvious to everyone that a 19th person, a visitor, existed...
"Honored guest room? Guest? ......What, who are you talking about?"Natsuhi's words echoed the question that everyone who didn't know about the visitor, the Golden Witch, was thinking.
Gohda was slightly disoriented, as though he hadn't thought Natsuhi would actually question him.......It had been an honored guest spoken of so severely.He hadn't imagined that Krauss and his wife might not have know.
"Umm, ......it is Beatrice-sama."

Spoiler for EP2 Since the ceremony had begun, Shannon knew that the marriage would never take place. Even if they could’ve gotten married, it would’ve been fated to fail (and now we know why.):

Shannon was bitter and sad.......The door to the Golden Land, had been opened.......The witch had definitely told her that.
That meant, the demise of everything..........Even if she accepted the ring from George, ............now, they could never be married.
No, in the first place......Did furniture like her, ......have the right to be married?Even if the witch hadn't come to tell of their demise, ......wasn't it fated to fail sometime or another?Had she turned her gaze towards the fun days with George, ...and purposefully closed her eyes to the sad reality?

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon reasons that the engagement is as good as a marriage and is their highest point in their relationship.:

Then, George-san.
......If it was decided by fate that this engagement ring, ......that this promise would not be fulfilled, ......would you still give it to me...?
...Shannon tried to ask that, ...but she swallowed her words.
Because George had already spoken the answer.
......George had said it.
He had said that to him, an engagement ring was infinitely similar to a wedding ring.
Therefore, accepting George's ring had a far more sacred significance than a promise to marry.

Spoiler for EP2 George always talks about a future with children and grandchildren. This corners Shannon and makes her think it will never work out.:

"I'm not saying this because of a momentary emotion. I'm not just looking at how you are now. .........I'm looking at the you of tomorrow, of the next day. ...I'm even gazing at you as you'll be in old age, in the future, as I say this."
"......You are always talking George-san. ...About how you want to spend your old age slowly, surrounded by healthy children and grandchildren."

Spoiler for EP2 At the end they realize that their condition doesn’t disqualify them from loving and being loved.:

Kanon to Jessica: "......I, liked Milady...!! And after seeing Milady on that day, I started liking her even more...! And when I heard that Milady also liked me, I was really happy...!! But I'm furniture, ......and I can't accept Milady's feelings!!"
"...You're wrong. .........We may be furniture. We may be less than human. ...But that doesn't mean that we aren't qualified to love."
"I believed that if those thoughts would never be fulfilled, it was better without them!! I just decided that someday, a day would come when I would disappear, and that would definitely hurt her, .........no, that's wrong!! I was just frightened!! I, ......was just afraid, that if the love could not be eternal, it was better without it!!"
"......Cicadas, even though their lives last only a few weeks, fall in love and disappear. .........There are no cicadas that don't fall in love because it will be over in a few weeks."

Spoiler for EP2 To end Beatrice’s Ceremony, you just need to solve the Epitaph. Those are the rules.:

That is because the rules for my loss have also been established.There's nothing as boring as a game you can't lose, right?
A way to defeat me.That is, the epitaph offered to my portrait.
That is both the way to open the door to the Golden Land and the key to destroying my ceremony. I follow the epitaph and complete the ceremony. You solve the riddle of the epitaph, destroy the ceremony and overthrow me...! Solve the riddle hidden in the epitaph, and expose the location of the vast gold I gave to Kinzo!!

Spoiler for EP2 Furniture cannot understand human emotions.:

"Kanon bowed once again, and closed the door...
.........He should have said something to give her some courage.............But for some reason, it felt like that would actually hurt her.
...Why? .........He didn't know.......Surely, that was because, ..................he was furniture.So even now, ...he couldn't grasp human sadness.
As Kanon repeatedly questioned himself, he walked down the corridor..........He felt like the window at the end was cooly calling to him.
"..............................In the end, .........am I nothing more than furniture after all......?"

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice tells Kanon how he can unintentionally betray Jessica's expectations, which is about her own experience with Battler.:

Beatrice to Kanon and Jessica: "There are three ways to hurt a woman. ...Let me teach them, just for you. One is to hurt them with a knife. Another is to hurt them in their heart. ...And the last one is the most difficult, and the most effective way of hurting them. And yet it can hurt them without you even realizing it. Do you know what it is...?"
"H, ......how could I know, I don't even want to know!!"
"It's to betray their hopes. ......No living being is more of a dreamer than a woman! They see their own dreams, and hurt themselves. ......A distant man like you hurts women the most! You couldn't understand. You don't have a clue how much you have injured Jessica."

Spoiler for EP2 Kinzo’s examples of magic and miracles, like on this church door, predates Yasu, and possibly became lessons and examples for Beatrice.:

"...Umm, I think it went 'm', 'b', 't', 'q', so, ...umm, umm...how many did that mean, I think...umm...umm, ..................Anyways, this is incredible. You can't even count close to that with all the fingers on both hands. It really would be impossible unless a miracle occurred.""......Certainly. He wanted to give a spectacular gambling-style example, very much like how Kinzo-san used to talk."
"What is it, what is it, can everyone read it? Someone tell me what it means too.""Kihihihihihihi. ...At least learn English. How did you get into high school without even being able to read this much? Kihihihihihihihihihi, ouch. Ouchouchouch."
"Mind your own business. So, what's written there?"
"...It means something like this. 'This door is opened only when a miracle occurs. You will be blessed only when a miracle occurs'."
"......Grandfather's magic is based on astronomically low probabilities. ...In other words, the miracle that would open this door, ......would probably require an incredibly vast magical power. ......Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi. Ouch."

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice took advice on magic from Kumasawa as well, intentional or not. For example, the spider web being harmful.:

"......Hmm."Genji took the handkerchief with the spiderweb stuck to it from Shannon.And he approached Kanon, who was pinned to the wall by Gohda's massive body and the knife.
"St...op it...!! Don't bri, bring that close...!! Stop it, st, op!! Gyaooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!"
When Genji pushed the handkerchief up to Kanon's face, ...there was a sound just like the one you hear when you set meat on a red-hot iron plate.

Spoiler for EP2 Shannon had also believed in Beatrice’s powers as she hinted to George.:

Since long ago, Shannon had hinted at a certain occult aspect regarding how she had met George. After listening to her, George had come to think that this was typical of a girl, associating love with fate, chance, and miracles.
......George thought that she had gone a little too far when she broke the spirit mirror that was offered at the torii shrine, but he had smiled and forgiven her, thinking that it was only a little prank she had done because she had seriously desired a relationship with him.
......Just breaking a mirror in some musty shrine wouldn't change the fate of our meeting.

Spoiler for EP2 Beato introduced risk into her ceremony since it is a component of her magic. She explained this risk to everyone with her letter. This is one of the clearest explanations to her method.:

Maria explaining Beatrice to Battler: "......Then, ...then why is Beatrice giving us all these big hints? ......Not just that, why did she even set up this game-like thing?"
"Risk is essential for magic."
"......Risk. ...I don't really know what you mean."
"For example, in a marathon, ......do you think that a medal that anyone can get by running the whole thing is worth the same as the medal given only to the person who gets first...?"
"No, I don't.........So what does this mean? In the end, she's just playing around? Purposefully giving us a chance-"
"W-ro-ng. That's what a witch is. No matter how great the magic, there are definitely risks and weak points. No, there has to be."
"...I don't get this stuff you call magic, ...but if I think about it as a gamble, I can understand a little. If you aren't prepared to lose big, then you can't win big. And the slimmer the chances of winning, the bigger the payoff."
"That is correct. So Beato properly explained the risk of the ceremony to everyone. Therefore, if this riddle is solved, the ceremony will be suspended. After all, if she breaks her promises, then there wouldn't be any risk."
"If we solve this, ...will she really keep her promise?"
"Why is it beautiful when a flower withers? Why is it that an artificial flower isn't beautiful no matter how elaborate it is, even if you can't tell the difference by looking? Humans can bring about miracles by gambling their death. If there were an undying human, that person would have no way of bringing about a miracle. .........Us too, life too, the witch and the ceremony too. If we don't bear a risk, we can't succeed in anything."
"......What do we do if we solve the riddle? Should we raise our hand and cry 'That's it!', tell the witch our answer and see what she says?"
"Uu-. I don't know about that. But, if we solve it, the ceremony will surely end automatically."

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice does not choose the best method to kill and is difficult for a detective, like Battler to understand. Understanding her requires understanding her as a witch, that is the way magic is used.:

So, ...if you don't bear a risk, nothing can be gained. That is doubtlessly the way of the world, ......but it was in conflict with the chessboard theory style of thinking that I liked. At least when making moves in chess, players grope for the best move, always trying to avoid risk and hoping for an advantageous turn of events.
They don't trust to chance, like in gambling.......That's right, there's no room for gambling in an intellectual game. And yet, this person called Beatrice had committed such an outrageous crime, ...or maybe a ceremony, ...while purposefully imposing conditions for her own loss and announcing them to us.
In chess, you always play the best move. So by standing in your opponent's position, you can predict their next move....However, you couldn't say for sure that Beatrice's moves were always the best moves.
I thought she was probably making us focus on the epitaph to trick us in some way, speaking in riddles.......But Maria said only that was impossible. She said that this was a genuine risk that the witch had taken, and therefore proof that this was a formal ceremony for magic.
.........I can't understand this witch called Beatrice.
Even though she is supposedly committing this chain of murders with some goal in mind, ......why did she go to all the trouble of exposing the conditions by which she would lose?......No matter how I turn the chessboard over and think from my opponent's perspective, ......I can't understand why she would give up if this riddle is solved.
Isn't it almost as though Beatrice doesn't care whether she wins or loses? It's natural that chessboard reasoning wouldn't work if you played chess against an opponent like this......I don't understand, I don't understand.......What is Beatrice after that's making her cause this crime?
If she just wants to massacre us all, she could just do it secretly, without this whole crazy setup. There was no need for that scrupulous advance notice, this closed room acting or anything.
...It's all over-acting.I don't understand at all what it means.
As long as I continue to think of Beatrice as a greedy human culprit, will I be able to understand anything?...If I don't accept her as a witch, will I be unable to even set the pieces on the chessboard after all......?

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice, through Rosa and Maria finally concludes that the good and bad of people are really of one person.:

"...I made it look like I was putting you first, ...but I was always putting you off. I went to your athletic meet, I went to parent's day, ...but I was always thinking about how I appeared to the world, and you were never in my eyes. ......Are you saying, ...that you even want to be together with that kind of Mama......? Even though, ......I've been such a bad Mama............!!"
"Hey, Mama. ...Did you know? There is only one Mama in this world. There's no good Mama or bad Mama. ...There's just one Mama. So for Maria, it's alright if there's only one Mama in the world. And Maria wants to become the only Maria for Mama."
".........The Maria who's in a good mood that you want to spoil, and the Maria who's a nuisance and you don't want to be around, aren't different people. Maria is also just one Maria. ......So both the scary Mama and the nice Mama are together. ......To Maria, ...there is just one ......Mama......"
"...............I was, ......such, ............an idiot............I didn't need gold. If only I had just pulled your hand.........I was such, ......a stupid Mama...!!"

Spoiler for EP2 Beatrice understands the pain of being stuck in one’s fate.:

"How far must the deep wounds in your heart recede before they can be healed? .........This is, .........deep, deep. ......Sometimes, wounds close up while a fragment of something is still inside. ...Even when those wounds appear to have healed, they will continue to throb for all eternity. Sometimes you have to open the wound once to completely heal it."
As the witch spoke, she stared deep into Rosa's eyes.......What in the world, ...was she peering at? Rosa felt uncomfortable, but she couldn't look away.
"............So your pain, is being stuck with a fate from the time you were born. ...How heart-breaking. ...You don't have to say it. I understand. ......I understand......"