2012-03-30, 18:46 | Link #28281 | ||||
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There are more hints about Kirye being capable to kill people than about Shannon being capable to do it. Though we know Shannon didn't commit any murder in Prime. Quote:
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Also we don't even know how much Nanjo knew about Beatrice 2's situation or how bad exactly it was. Nanjo said Kinzo admitted he felt attraction for her but he might have learnt he got Beato pregnant after Beato was dead... if he got her pregnant because there's even the suspicion Yasu isn't her daughter but someone Kinzo picked up to replace her (and there's even the theory not even Beato is Kinzo's daughter). In the games is said also that Eva and Eva-Beatrice are the same person and that it's Eva-BEatrice the culprit behind the deaths in EP 3... Eva do not suffer of split personality though and she's not even the culprit in EP 3, apart for maybe Battler's murder. |
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2012-03-30, 20:52 | Link #28282 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-03-30, 21:20 | Link #28283 |
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So, I'm thinking Renall doesn't need his own lawyer here.
And in the end all that comes out of this is that he doesn't like Umineko. There's a thread for that. Moving on... Concerning motives of gameboard... I think there are tons of them. They are overflowing, but they are crappy motives. Lolgold being the central of them. Beatrice as a writer can also, at least theorically, make anyone into a culprit. More importantly we as readers can also do it in our speculation (and indeed does it) At that point it falls more or less into personal understanding of various characters (and often personal hatred). Did Ryuukishi even have a solid definitive answer concerning this? Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be something he nor the story cares about. To a lot of people that is Yasu, to a lot of others it is George, I think some people think it's Kyrie and the Battler culprit theory is also in the air. Kinzo's responsability as well as Genji are also up in the air concerning this. But it doesn't really matter who is the culprit in any given story, it's clear that the mastermind is the writer, by definition. That's true even if the culprit is always the same. This is fundamentally not too different from the relation between the main mystery of Higurashi and a given arc's culprit. So that's where fantasy motives comes into play. It might not make realistic sense, but it's more interesting then normal motives that simply makes a character look bad, often crazy. Higurashi had it's shares of scifi and fantasy elements, and I'm fairly certain it made to most viewers and readers the whole thing more interesting. There's something more mystical to a mystery that includes such elements then a typical detective story tend to have, I think this is the basic fan base of both Umineko and Higurashi too. In the end, detective mysteries (those that respects the laws of physics at least) have a very limited number of possible solutions as far as the why dunnit goes. Most of the time it is resumed as "their emotions lead them to do these murders" and sometimes we can even have sympathy and understanding for these murders but it is not such a deep revealing mystery as sometimes fantasy or science fiction can achieve. I am not saying that detective mysteries are bad, but they are mostly centered on who dunnit and how dunnit - because there's just that much of a limit on the why dunnit, despite what Will might say. There's a reason why series like Lost go so popular and I think by bringing up fantasy over mystery, Ryuukishi wanted us readers to get that same sort of feeling. It's ironic in that sense that we mostly ended up rejecting anything that isn't fantasy and ultimately forced ourselves to deception by accepting a pretty ... bland... why dunnit. |
2012-03-31, 05:13 | Link #28284 | ||||||
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Culprit,crime and motive is all contained within each game with hints spread throughout. Quote:
About Shannon not commuting any murder on Prime. Is the proof based on that final scene in EP8 where Beatrice kills herself? Quote:
In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred. Quote:
The problem you seem to have is that severity of the crime would mean that Nanjo would not help cover up things. If that is a problem then the pressure to cover up the murders was also more severe. Quote:
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We a part of that when Bernkastel took a nice scene of Natsuhi talking with Beatrice and stripped away that illusion. As well the whole the theme of catboxs where anything is possible is better than a single truth. In fact even the true form of Beatrice the scary, sneering and formidable witch has a rather pitiful form that she wants to hide. The truth of Beatrice is not great as the concept of an endless witch that can control life and death. |
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2012-03-31, 05:51 | Link #28285 | ||
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But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways. Quote:
Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional". And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants. |
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2012-03-31, 06:36 | Link #28286 | ||||
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Even accepting the whole mystery game premise if want to think that Yasuda did commit murder within her game that she set up for Battler. There is plenty within EP 6-8 suggest that all of Yasuda is not entirely innocent at last as far the explosives are concerned. In EP6 when Chick Beatrice spoke with "Mother". Keep in mind that she told Beatrice that she must wait for Battler to fulfill his promise. More importantly that one day that Beatrice will destroy and revive everything to being blessing to all lovers. In EP7, Clair mentioned that she would have not been able to commit any crime/sin before the "days of trial" to which Will commented that her misfortune was to solve the epitaph and become a witch. What she gained was a means to gain different accomplices with vast amount of wealth and the "other system" to invite everyone into the golden land. Very likely that "the other" systems refers to the bomb that Yasuda has access to when she solved the epitaph. As well that inviting everyone into the golden land where all love is possible which refers to the explosion shutting up everyone within the cat box. That is further expanded on within EP8 when Kannon and Shannon talk about how catbox allows conflicting future to exist. That was the heart of the problem between all of the personas. That only one could achieve love but with catbox it was possible for them all to achieve a happy future. Quote:
Even in the horror genre, the imaginary can be more frighting than reality. Quote:
Well yes everything is fiction but there is difference between fiction and fantasy in Umineko. That is what Will's black blade did, cut out the fantasy away from the fiction within the first four games. Quote:
That is the point that I am trying to make. That more often then not that the fantasy can be better than reality. The way that Maria and Ange used magic was to cover up reality with pleasant fantasy. That Ange had magical friends that was always with her instead of the harsh reality that she is alone and nobody cares about her at all. Motive is the same. A fantasy motive can be better then the actual one becasue one can shape it to their likings. |
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2012-03-31, 06:52 | Link #28288 |
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And that is it. "shaping any fantasy you want" is what Beato did NOT want. She wanted to tell a fantasy story, with a certain message, she wanted to convey to Battler. But that was her problem. Battler didn't take the fantasy part seriously, as he did not know the world of Beato's fantasy. It is hard to explain, but what i mean is, she wants Battler to look for her message in the fantasy part and to make him look for it, she uses the mystery side to give him courage.
In short: the mysteries only exist as support for Battler to reach the truth in the fantasy. Maybe it is the promise? Or that she is not the murderer. This is all hard to answer, because we still don't know if the message bottles have been written pre- or post- incident. And if people cannot accept Ikuko as Yasuda, but instead go for RandomIkuko, then it becomes even more complicated, because half of the story was not even written by Yasuda herself... In my opinion that is unrelated, because they only concern Ange and have (almost) nothing to do with Beato's games. It has been implied, that Beato's and Ange's magic are different. Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-31 at 08:24. |
2012-03-31, 08:49 | Link #28289 | ||||||||||
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Has she gone mad/paranoud all of sudden? It's a possible explanation that PieceErika's motive is she'd gone mad but the explanation we generally go for is that MetaErika moved her Piece in such way to generate a logic error. As this action is OOC for PieceErika (we're nowhere said Erika was a psychokiller, though she surely has an unpleasant personality) her motive is weak. Also we don't even know if Battler has guessed Kirye's motive right. It could be that Kirye was bribed into dragging Hideyoshi out of the house or wanted to kill him because she believed him to be the culprit. After all it wasn't Eva who was the culprit and it's unlikely Hideyoshi managed to kill Rudolf and Kirye who in return managed to shoot him to dead. The cigarette butt might have been placed there by the real culprit in fact it's Beato who searches in the corpses' pockets so that Battler can notice the cigarette and do his own deduction about the motive. Quote:
Though personally I think Shannon can't be the culprit because I doubt Eva would cover up for her. Quote:
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Ep 6 represented her as Beato the elder. Quote:
There are very few people who had never lied once in their life to cover up something but not everyone would be willing to lie to cover up a mass murder that might end up involving them as well. How did Nanjo know Yasu wouldn't have killed him too? And even if he believed she would have spared him how did he plan to explain to the police the situation once they would reach Rokkenjima? Quote:
It's possible the culprit was Eva, it's possible the culprit was Yasu. Actually considering it was Maria who persuaded her mother to leave the house it's easy to assume that Yasu said something that influenced Maria's behaviour so that she dragged Rosa out of the house making easier for her to kill them. Quote:
Beato wants to be acknowledged by real people, Ange rejects her fantsy friends because they can't just be enough, Kinzo ends up hurting his own daughter and losing her and so on. Fantasy might be nice and conforting but in the long run if you indulge too much in it you get more pain than gain. Quote:
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Battler didn't come on Rokkenjima in Lion's world and yet people died just the same. Quote:
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2012-03-31, 09:55 | Link #28290 | |
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Battler at one points breaks down and start crying and ask for Beatrice to make a murder that definitively couldn't have been done by humans, so they would stop being at each other's throat from the start. Also, what about things like when Natsuhi enters Kinzo's room and he tells her a speech about how she inherited his will and has the eagle engraved in her heart and all that. Or iono, like broken down Kinzo crying and having Beatrice saying "you fool.... without love you cannot see me" or something like that? What about arc 3 where "good witch and bad witch" are put into opposition (twice, Virgilia vs Beatrice at first, and Beatrice vs Eva Beato later)? You can find many if you try to. Well you did say "correct me if I'm wrong", so done. |
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2012-03-31, 13:01 | Link #28291 | |||||||||
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About EP6, I am not sure how much that as a valid game considering the blatant tampering on Erika's part and Battler's retroactive changes to the story. I do not think we saw Batter as a piece ever act like that nor ever shown awareness about his status as a piece. More so that the end was never really allowed to end one way or another. That game concluded with just fixing the logic error due to Erika playing a different role in the story then intended. Quote:
Unlikely but not impossible. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that Hideyoshi was able to kill them both but got killed himself. Beatrice was helping Battler since he could not do it himself. Like I said that EP3 was basically training wheels for Battler. Quote:
Will said to Claire that thanks to solving the epitaph that vast wealth allowed to pick up different accomplices. Quote:
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Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed. The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice. That is a hint in EP4 of Beatrice's origin. EP3 introduced the concept of a witch being born from a human so it is possible to make that connection. Quote:
Of course people lie and can draw the line somewhere but like I said Nanjo is not "everyone" nor he is an entirely honest man, we do not know where he would draw the line. With a vast amount of wealth and potential threat. Why would not be possible for Nanjo to aid a murder by lying about life/death statuses? Quote:
The explosives would remove all of the evidence, Nanjo can just say that like Eva that he escaped. What are they going to convict him with? If Eva did not go to prison, the family doctor certainly would not. Quote:
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Although if you consider the magic vs trick ending that the magic one where Ange believes in magic and blindly hopes that someone will return is the most positive one. |
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2012-03-31, 19:12 | Link #28292 | |
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Tell me honestly... when you read/watched EP1, did you really know that Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi was a delusion/lie? Or were you convinced that the death of Kanon was a fake scene or just really magic? I at least didn't. The setting was completly that of a mystery. Unlike the later Episodes, the scenes without Battler lacked the usual "magic shows". And in EP2-4 most magic scenes, where something good happened, ended with a tragedy. In EP2 all happy magic scenes ended up with everyones death at the end. First Jessica and Kanon, then George and Shanon. In EP3 similary, after Beato finally did something good, Eva-Beato fries her... and the reason why it stopped was a META scene and additionally it was done by Battler who was clearly Anti-Fantasy. Now that I think about it... wasn't almost every death in EP2-4 a horror-fantasy? |
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2012-03-31, 21:39 | Link #28293 | ||||||||||
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Also, Rudolf and Kirye were skilled with weapons while Hideyoshi was not and, according to your theory, Kirye suspected of him. Two people skilled with weapons and wary against one who's unskilled and might not know he's being suspected. The chances are so low Hideyoshi needs a miracle to accomplish this. Quote:
If Yasu is dead it would have been easy to place the blame on the 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir'. If Yasu is alive likely Eva wishes for revenge for the dead of George and Hideyoshi. In both cases I doubt she would just take the blame and cover up for Yasu... Quote:
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In Ep 1 when Kanon is killed there'a a door that lead outside and that's not closed. In Ep 2 Nanjo and Kumasawa apparently welcomed in their murderer. In Ep 3 the only closed room murders are the ones of the first twilight and the one of George. The same applies to Ep 4 where Maria is killed again and Beato uses poison to murder her. I don't really see any problem in her causing Rosa and Maria to leave the house and then cause Rosa to die in such a way to after kill Maria through strangulation. Note that Beato (well, chick Beato) attempted to strangulate someone in EP 6 as well. Quote:
The negative thing is that she relied on them, not that she gave up on them. Fantasy isn't bad per se, it's when you start to live in a fantasy world that things tend to go bad. If Ange hadn't blindly trusted in her friends to solve her problems but had remained aware they were just fantasies she wouldn't have put her hopes in them. Through probably that scene is a mere metaphor to represent how she had reached a breaking point where not even fantasy could help her being happy as it can't solve her problems in the real world. Quote:
Hoping for something that has a chance at happening, although a low one, isn't lying to herself about something she knows for sure to be false. Also, while she hoped, she still tried to live in the real world instead than closing herself in the fantasy world of her hope. Her stance is completely different from the one she had at school where she acted like she believed her magic friends to be real and tried to cut herself from the real world. |
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2012-04-01, 01:19 | Link #28295 | |
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Also, the point is not that fantasy is like, good, and mystery evil, like you seem to suggest we think. It's about how fantasy makes a STORY that in itself is more heartwarming. If anything, the very end of Umineko has Ange reviving everyone. Good luck reaching that with mystery alone. |
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2012-04-01, 05:53 | Link #28296 |
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Well it seems my view was a bit different, because i was "Anime-first"....
Anyway, you still don't get what I want to say... for example the scene with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa "finding" the guestroom with Eva and George death. As we all got to know now, it did not really happen, but the scene still looked plausible, and as long as we think about a reliable narrator, we will probably believe in that scene. There was no "magic" aside form the magic circle, that however really existed. My point is until EP1 TP there are no "flying stakes that transform into girls"... And that was just about Legend o.t.g.W. Then from EP2 onwards we get Beato's magic shows with goats fighting etc. While you could say "it is good that it's none of the people that Battler knows" is a good and "heartwarming" thing, in (almost) every single twilight there is a scene described, how the victim becomes torn into pieces very detailed, mixed with "classical" music to make this look as if the murderer actually enjoys that. The "hearwarming" scenes were clearly overshadowed, sometimes even interupted by the horror scenes. |
2012-04-01, 07:23 | Link #28297 | |||||||||
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About the "fake" murders to blackmail Natsuhi. Weren't the corpses cut in such a way that fake death would be impossible? Quote:
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Also what prevents other characters from committing murder for example self-defense? It seemed that Eva shot Battler in a state of delusion no? It is indeed a low chance but it is not as unlikely as you think. Also unless I am misremembering something wasn't it mentioned that Hideyoshi used a weapon before? Regardless I do not see it as that unlikely. Within the games, Meta Beatrice used pretty nasty tricks to make murders look confusing. Considering the first trick of EP3 and using the red truth in the end. Quote:
Fine lets talk about Prime. Just one thing that I always wondered about. Is it possible that maybe Eva is not 100% innocent within Prime? I know it is shocking to consider since it seems that she wants Ange to think that she was behind it. However there is one thing to consider. Eva has the ring of the head and knowledge of the hidden mansion that was able to avoid the explosives. So from whom did Eva get the ring and the knowledge to avoid the explosives? Kinzo is dead so he couldn't have passed on the ring. The true head is Yasuda who Kinzo gave all of his wealth including the vast amount of gold. What if Prime Yasuda gave Eva the ring and passed on the headship to her. That Eva might have some role within the incident that she directly or indirectly caused some of the events. On why Eva takes the blame. I do attribute that to two reasons -someone in Ange's family had a role in the incident which Eva did want to burdin Ange with -Eva felt a certain futility in trying to change the truth as everyone thinks as her as the culprit even if a 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir' killed everyone that she cannot prove it. -Eva was traumatized by the incident and like most traumatized people rather avoid thinking about the incident Quote:
That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer. Quote:
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Within the TIP it was mentioned that Rosa's death might have been seen as an "accident" if Maira was not killed after Rosa. Using the TIPS, it sounds more like that the murders were done in passion. That Rosa's death was accidental and Maria was done in reaction to Rosa' death.(started crying and was silenced) Will's answer within EP3 like "the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" give more indication about who was behind some of the murders. Quote:
However that does not exactly change that returning to magic and fantasy is still portrayed as a positive choice rather than facing harsh and grim reality. Quote:
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2012-04-01, 09:12 | Link #28298 | ||||||||||||||
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And no, Erika doesn't really help Battler out. They came to the same conclusions at around the same time so at best Erika confirmed Battler's deductions (and suggested searching for a atlas... though since Battler too was in the library he might have gone there with that purpose already). Quote:
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There are two popular theories about why the serial murders didn't stop with the discovery of the gold, the first is that Eva didn't inform anyone about discovering the gold so pieceYasu didn't know and went on with her plan. The second is that Eva didn't really solve the epitaph but was handed/promised the solution by Yasu in exchange for her to act a certain way and she realized too late what this had caused. Quote:
Your plot for Ep 3 doesn't set up Eva as accidentally killing Rosa and Maria but purposely doing it and the same can be said for Hideyoshi... unless you want to widen the rose of murders and say that Kirye and Rudolf tried to kill him first. Quote:
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- shoot by mistake (Ep 3-7), be willing to shoot for self defence/her family's defence (Ep 3-7), have shoot for revenge (Ep 7). Surely in Prime Yasu (or possibly Genji) informed Eva and likely Battler about the underground passage and the bomb and waved around Kinzo's ring. However the money that was supposed to bribe people was used for Nanjo, Kumasawa and Rudolf. There's no mention Eva received it, although since there were many boxes in the bank it's possible that everyone who was on the island was bribed into something. Ryukishi also said: Quote:
Ergo, even if it's possible Eva did something, it likely was something 'minor' that wouldn't label her as the sole/main culprit. Quote:
It's much more logic to consider the various characters Yasu created are nothing else but masks. Shannon represents the face she is supposed to show to the world, Beato her inner desires. Quote:
Covering up Kinzo's death can't remotely compare to aiding a mass murderer. Quote:
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She adopted a more positive outlook and faced reality, didn't escape from it. Although she hoped in Battler's return she didn't pretend he was around and continued to live in the real world, working and interacting with real people. If you want she chose to believe in Kinzo's magic, the one who has low chances to become real but still has chances. The fact that the seven sisters were with her instead had zero chances of being true. I guess Umineko wanted to draw a line between living in a world of fantasies and continuing to hope in a positive outcome. Even Will said something similar: Quote:
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It'll be different if she'd been hoping Maria would come back when pieces of Maria were found on the island or if she was devoting all her life to wait for Battler's return. Hope is a positive thing, something that keep human going on, the last to die or as the Latins said 'Spes, Ultima Dea'. |
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2012-04-01, 09:27 | Link #28299 | |
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To me that sort of fantasy is way more "fantasy" then flying stakes. Matter of view. What does matter tho is that, at least I think, when people refer to fantasy they don't seperate things to the point you do. Fantasy = scene that didn't happen in mystery. Otherwise it just means that like, when Ronove and Beatrice are talking, it's not fantasy, because talking doesn't break the laws of physics. Also, well, dead people talking do break the laws of physics a lot (I mean, arc 1 has that a lot, you can't say there's no pure fantasy). But anyway you seem to think I suggest fantasy are "good" and this is really not the case. It's just like Higurashi in the end. Fantasy/sci-fi elements didn't exactly make things any happier, but it was heartwarming to learn that you know, it's not a serie about just people snapping and senselessly murder others without much sense being behind the whole thing, like some j-horror movies tend to be. It's the same thing with Umineko, arc 5 made quite a point about that logic. Also, magic became well... more obvious, because without that people would still try to reason out things without considering some scenes to be "fantasies". We didn't get it, so Ryuukishi put it in our face. Arc 2 still wasn't enough, so he went with ridiculously epic magic battle in arc 3 and 4. Hope we understand each other's view now ^^;; |
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2012-04-01, 11:52 | Link #28300 | ||||||||||||
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You cannot make a pawn move diagonally. Even the queen who can move the freely within chess is limited as it cannot move like a knight. I always had the impression that Battler solved it thanks to bouncing his ideas to Erika and vice-versa. Quote:
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Although the two theories do make sense. Quote:
Besides the 3rd game was largely about giving Battler tools to figure out others games. The mysteries were still as difficult and vexing as ever except that Beatrice helped Battler all the way through. Quote:
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The only character who has something comparable is Eva whose inner self becomes separated once she becomes a "witch"(sound similar?). Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda. Quote:
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A slightly cynical person would consider that to be foolish dreaming that borders on living in a fantasy. |
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