Nisemonogatari - Episode 01 Discussion / Poll

[Zetsubo]

Question 1: How did Hitagi get Koyomi unconscious body to where it is, or did she lure him there ?
Question 2: Even if she lured him there, is she strong enough to prop him up and cuff him herself ?

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

I usually don't mind the metaphoric circlejerking banter from series of this genre, bu I am growing a bit tired of it and would rather see something along the lines of fate/zero where conversation is used to carry the plot forward.

I like Fate/Zero, but if you take the first 20 minutes of the first episode it's all about Master summoning Servants, and even then the first episode had to be 40 minutes long. Every story needs some time to develop. Not to mention that the conversation does carry the plot forward in Nise in the first episode

[thirdlc]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Look at this. There are just so many people involved in this episode's sakuga. That's something that made character's look to be unbalanced and keep changing.

Definitely, they did not have much time. Usual Shaft again.

I don't think this episode is the case. I guess they'll participate Kizumonogatari and that they are here to get the hang of Monogatari series before setting to work on the movie. Most of them are unfamiliar to me in Shaft work.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

I probably wouldn't mind if it, you know, actually had set something up.

This is what we're saying though. Stuff has been set up. Most of us just haven't caught it yet, because A. this is an adaptation of a novel by a notoriously convoluted writer, and B. this is an adaptation of a novel by a notoriously convoluted writer in japanese. If you can't figure out how most of this stuff connects together (which is most of us), you've got three options: 1. hope that somebody with a better understanding of Japanese can explain stuff for you; 2. hope that somebody more familiar with the novels can spoil and/or hint stuff for you; or 3. wait for the payoff or more events to happen so that the bigger picture becomes more obvious.

(I lurked through a number of Nisemonogatari threads on /a/ before posting here, so I fall in the position of having done 1. and 2. Not that that is necessarily recommended, though, given that going to /a/ is not far from submitting to pure anarchy in terms of trolling, spoilers, and shitposting as far as discussion goes.)

While I'm not saying it completely didn't, but the (barely any) vague foreshadowing and hinting didn't sit too well with me, especially when I'm already holding expectations from the monogatari series to be rather plot heavy (I suppose this was a result of the condensation of bakamono). I came out of this episode with little idea of what the focus and theme of plot this time around is, asides from the (implied) shift in focus to family ties, and isn't the idea of a premiere not to set this straight? I usually don't mind the metaphoric circlejerking banter from series of this genre, bu I am growing a bit tired of it and would rather see something along the lines of fate/zero where conversation is used to carry the plot forward. If we're arguing that it adds to character development, its not something that flys in a premiere episode IMO.

The conversations have been used to carry the plot forward though; I'm telling you to trust that. If you want more concrete details now, though, I guess you might need to go after some spoilers.

You can take the focus/theme of the plot this time around to be Araragi's relationship with his little sisters. [Karen Bee]; [Tsukihi Phoenix]--you can also take that the plot focus of this arc in particular will be at least marginally related to Karen.

On a grander scale: in the overall series review for Bakemonogatari I wrote just less than one year ago I identified the grand theme of this series to be Araragi's struggle between the realms of man and monster. For Araragi, the realm of man is characterized by love and family; whereas the realm of monsters is characterized by (a life of) isolation and self-sacrifice. Hitagi is the central pillar tying Araragi to the realm of man; Shinobu is the central pillar tying Araragi to the realm of monsters. While I've always been content to just enjoy the "Monogatari" series on just the level of entertainment (i.e. without any pretentious literary analysis), from my perspective Nisemonogatari has already once more jumped straight into that central conflict, illustrating (just to start off with) through his conversations with Mayoi and Tsukihi--how his existence as a kaii is causing a continuing erosion of Araragi's relationships with his family.

[Demoned Away]

I could live without the excessive amount of fan service and dialogue in this episode . . . but I guess I should expect it from a harem show. I'll probably get hate for this post but I only like the monogatari series for the action and storyline. I could care less about the harem aspect of it.

[Clarste]

Bakemono was full of conversations whose true meaning didn't become apparent until a few episodes later. I'd expect, or at least I'm hoping, that this will continue to be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if Araragi ends up needing to have the "courage to X" at some point down the line. Or perhaps the "courage to not X". Either way, seemingly trivial conversations can easily pay off.

[Anh_Minh]

Speaking of, I wonder what we're supposed to think of Hachikuji echoing Oshino's farewell.

[KLGChaos]

SHAFT! is at it again with the weirdness level. Seems they upped it a notch for Nisemonogatari... though I can't blame them. When a show is 25 min of straight dialogue, it needs something to keep it from being weighed down, no matter how well-written it may be.

Senjougahara appears to be in full Yandere mode here.

[Aleister]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Speaking of, I wonder what we're supposed to think of Hachikuji echoing Oshino's farewell.

That's actually because... Wait, those spoilers are forbidden here right?

[Flower]

You know ... it prolly would not be fair for me to vote on this ep. I did not like Bakemonogatari, but thought I would give this one a try too.

Originally Posted by KLGChaos

....Senjougahara appears to be in full Yandere mode here.

This kinda put the nail in the coffin for me. I didn't like her when she was tsundere, and I certainly did not like her here. I did like Hachikuji though. Kinda nice to have a semi-normal, sweet tempered character around for a change.

Oh well. At least I gave it a try, but I'll pass on this one for now.

But I must admit I kinda liked the OP....

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Flower

You know ... it prolly would not be fair for me to vote on this ep. I did not like Bakemonogatari, but thought I would give this one a try too.



This kinda put the nail in the coffin for me. I didn't like her when she was tsundere, and I certainly did not like her here. I did like Hachikuji though. Kinda nice to have a semi-normal, sweet tempered character around for a change.

Oh well. At least I gave it a try, but I'll pass on this one for now.

But I must admit I kinda liked the OP....

What did you think about last season's episode 12? Not to say that it was episode 12 which changed my opinion and perspective on Hitagi; that was episode 15.

I, myself, am somebody who used to think Hitagi was just a psycho bitch, whose desperate love Nishio shoved into the story in order to pander to otaku fantasies. But now, I believe that she honestly is the heart of the show, and the key to Araragi's happiness and humanity. It's a genuine surprise to me how far I've turned around regarding her character.

I mentioned it before, but Hitagi hinted that she's protecting him, and Araragi assumes that she's (probably, haha) serious. If you take the pre-OP segment as Hitagi having some fun teasing Araragi (and also keeping him from asking questions) while trying to protect him from something necessarily, I think the interaction between them can even be seen as charming. Don't write off Hitagi just yet; as far as I'm aware, she's actually even set to receive some massive character development this season.

[Malkuth]

^ Hm, despite her post-ep.12 appeal, Hitagi IS indeed a psycho (to be precise paranoid and possessive) bitch... but unlike otaku-fandom perceptions, she has very good story-based reasons to be one... cults, crabs, snails, snakes, monkeys, cats, and as of late bees and birds

[Flower]

What Malkuth says is true, and to be fair what Sol Falling says about ep 12 (or 15) changing one's opinion about Senjougahara makes sense in the meaning that I could see someone's opinion being changed after the end eps of Bakemonogatari and all.

Well, whether or no a certain character has a good reason to behave psychotically or no is one thing. Whether you enjoy spending your time watching such behavior (whatever the reason) is another. And to be honest watching that sort of stuff just is not interesting, amusing, or even funny to me.

Just a difference in taste and opinion I think.

[Malkuth]

... and I forgot oppai->loli vamps hidden in plot-armoring shadows

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

^ Hm, despite her post-ep.12 appeal, Hitagi IS indeed a psycho (to be precise paranoid and possessive) bitch... but unlike otaku-fandom perceptions, she has very good story-based reasons to be one... cults, crabs, snails, snakes, monkeys, cats, and as of late bees and birds

That's just the thing; by the end of this series, I'm betting no one will be able to say that anymore; and the trick regarding this opening to the series is that we will find out she wasn't, even now (my speculation). While as you point out Hitagi had every reason to be cautious and concerned about self-preservation, even episode 12 was not necessarily enough to prove that what she feels for Araragi is genuine goodwill. That's why people can still genuinely question that she's a yandere. But there's potential enough in this episode to interpret that Hitagi is doing that stuff out of concern for Koyomi, and my bet is that potential is gonna be fulfilled.

[Malkuth]

Hitagi is definitely not a yandere, all in all except from an excusable high-heel swing and a stapling has not shown any other violent behaviour

That said, she has a lot of issues with following social norms, and Koyomi is unfortunate, since he has earned her trust and honesty, to witness her genuine feelings and inept, yet cute, ways of expressing them.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Flower

What Malkuth says is true, and to be fair what Sol Falling says about ep 12 (or 15) changing one's opinion about Senjougahara makes sense in the meaning that I could see someone's opinion being changed after the end eps of Bakemonogatari and all.

lol, to be honest, I'm not saying that episode 15 gave me a change in opinion regarding Hitagi's character; I'm saying that episode 15 gave me some blinding insight into the structure/nature/themes of this story such that I am certain Senjougahara is a good character. I am certain Senjougahara is not a psycho bitch, and that none of her actions are motivated by paranoia or possessiveness; however, whether you believe me or not will have to depend on whether you can agree with my interpretation of the themes of the story.

Also, the point about "character development" is that, if I am right, you will have to see Senjougahara acting like this for maybe at most one more episode of this series. After that, Senjougahara's true nature will be revealed, and you will be able to even come back to this episode and see it differently. This remains all just speculation though; I dunno if it'll really be that amazing.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Hitagi is definitely not a yandere, all in all except from an excusable high-heel swing and a stapling has not shown any other violent behaviour

That said, she has a lot of issues with following social norms, and Koyomi is unfortunate, since he has earned her trust and honesty, to witness her genuine feelings and inept, yet cute, ways of expressing them.

That'd be Bakemonogatari episode 12, but not at all, I would say, Nisemonogatari episode 1. Hitagi said that her actions this time were her protecting him; and I genuinely believe her. In my post before, I mentioned that Hitagi is the "central pillar" tying Araragi to the "realm of man"; allow me to revise that to "the single thread protecting him from a gaping abyss of loss and self-sacrifice". The problem with Araragi is that he's self-denigrating. He has no self-esteem; he thinks he's a failure. Araragi's estrangement from "strong" or "happy" or "successful" people like his sisters is the reason he's willing to lose himself to the death and self-sacrifice of being a monster. Araragi's only tie to the human world--to love, to reconciliation with his family, to "success" and actually making something of his existence--is Senjougahara Hitagi, and she is his guardian--against himself (this is why, when Hitagi says "Including your brain, I will manage your entire body; from ingestion to excretion," it is a great moment and totally hilarious). To lay it out, Senjougahara--as Araragi's tie to the human world and guardian against the monster one--is protecting him against a kaii and his self-sacrifice. Senjougahara's ridiculous teasing of Koyomi in this episode is a silent gesture asking him to trust her, and Araragi's acquiescence in not asking questions is a quiet acceptance. Her behaviour has nothing to do with insecurity about their relationship; she's being good to him, in a way that is entirely about Araragi's happiness, and not about herself.

[Hint removed].

[rocket]

Wow, very happy to see the ol' Bake gang back together, I'd really forgotten how much I missed them! Put me in the very pleased camp. It didn't feel like it started as strongly as the first series, certainly it doesn't stand alone, but I actually thought the pacing was better than many of the original episodes. The painful drawn out repartee never got to be quite so painfully drawn out without revealing a point or changing gears.

I really liked how Senjougahara was right away pushing boundaries! So painful! But also so obviously sadistic that it kind of makes Sol Falling's point for him.

Hachikuji was awesome. I actually enjoyed her time here way more than her appearances near the end of the first season outside of her own arc where it just felt like "we need more of the elementary school kid to balance our harem". In this episode she just seemed a fitting contrast to his real little sisters. She's a ravenous wandering spirit (who no doubt has eaten her fair share of pedophiles who were interested in 'helping her' through the years), he's the one person whom she can claw and bite at with demonic nature who won't be harmed. He's an older brother who's used to rough housing with his younger siblings (now he can't for fear of killing them with vampiric overdrive), she's a little sister substitute who can take any level abuse physical and verbal. Hachikuji is the character necessary to illustrate the contrast between his old normal family life and his new 'harem' family. I will be sad if that was indeed foreshadowing of her departure, but perhaps it's linked to a larger departure from the world of oddities for our hapless protagonist.

Was it just me or did her backpack seem too small?

Also, um... seriously, what exactly is supposed to be the innuendo intended by the anime staff in the mind of all the people who think the pie in the face is supposed to be western slang? That Hachikuji has been recently having intercourse? Really?! Or that "cream pie" is misunderstood as western slang for any shot of female genitalia? It seems far more likely to me that this was typical Shaft teasing of their viewers by promising them a money shot then delivering a pie in the face. I think the point was that we got a pie instead of a loli panty shot. Kinda like the end animation dance tease...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Her behaviour has nothing to do with insecurity about their relationship; she's being good to him, in a way that is entirely about Araragi's happiness, and not about herself.

Not sure about his happiness, but he does indeed have a history of suicidal behavior, that he has to be guarded against.

[monir]

Compared to Araragi, Senjougahara is very normal. Yeah, she is socially awkward which was mostly contributed from her traumatic childhood experience, but she is still loads better than Araragi. Guy has a martyr complex about him as has been pointed out.... let me seee... six times in Bakemonogatari? Senjougahara is perfect for him. For a dude as extreme as him, there is no one who can "talk" (to put it mildly) than Senjougahara and keep him in line.

P.S. The anime discussion has a certain flow to it which is generated from discovering the information as they are given episode by episode, so the novel readers will have to use utmost caution to not to damage the natural flow of that discussion when participating in the weekly episode discussion thread. Thanks!