2012-06-22, 12:02 | Link #8801 | |
The One Eyed King
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
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I said that Ultear's version was far weaker than what I'm suspecting Zeref is doing... didn't you read what I wrote? Or are you just arguing for it's own sake? If you want a debate I'm game. Look "control" and "possession" are words with many degrees to them. I then said the two possessions (Ultear on Jellal and Zeref on Shelia (my suspicion)) are in different leagues from one another. Yet your yelling at me for something I already admitted. Next off a philosophical question for you... "Define possession on a person's free will" I say: Possession occurs when a person has given up their free will knowingly or unknowingly to an 3rd party, even if they believe they never did and all their choices where their own. After all our thoughts are just chemical reactions, how easy is it would it be in a series like Fairy Tail for a magic to play with them? To induce a high so strong one fully believes that what they are doing is right or a love so strong that it's worth killing over... etc... It matter's not if Jellal was enjoying the ride, and thought that's what he wanted to do. What matters is his reaction to continue it after the possession ends and they look back on what they've done. At least that's how I view it.
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2012-06-22, 12:12 | Link #8802 | |
Senior Member
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Manipulating someone into doing something that they wouldn't have done otherwise is not the same as possessing someone. Ultear manipulated him, she tricked him, she made him do her bidding without him ever knowing, but she did not possess him. She couldn't have, for example, made him strip naked during a council meeting and announce his plans to take over the world while moonwalking. Using magic to "induce a high so strong one fully believes that what they are doing is right or a love so strong that it's worth killing over" is still not possession. At most, it's brainwashing, making him believe what he is doing it right (and she did so that), but not possession. You need to learn what the notion means. |
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2012-06-22, 12:38 | Link #8803 |
The One Eyed King
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
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Well, I'm glad you're so certain... you'd fail any philosophy course, but whatever.
You see, free will would also have to be debated in that question. But clearly you know what it is and could never be manipulated... Brainwashing is a form of possession. It goes by many many names with varying degrees including but not limited to: coercive persuasion, indoctrination, instill, mind abuse, mind control, menticide, possession, thought control, and thought reform. You have an argument, which is fine... it's a legit view point to have. However my issue is your narrow mindedness to other legit view points on the topic. This line of conversation involves defining free will and that's something no one has ever been able to define through out all of history, it's like defining the soul... so you being the first well, sorry but my bullshit meter is going off. Don't get me wrong you have a view point on the matter that is argued well enough I suppose but it's not the only "correct" answer either.
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2012-06-22, 12:50 | Link #8804 |
Where are the good animes
Join Date: Dec 2003
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My prediction is the same way Natsu defeated Zancrow:
-Natsu depletes his own magical energy(which Wendy seems to have done) -Allows Natsu to eat the Fire God magic. (Wendy will eat Shelia's Wind God magic) -Natsu combines Fire Dragon & Fire God magic = Fire Dragon God Slayer technique. (Wendy combines to form Wind Dragon God Slayer technique) |
2012-06-22, 12:50 | Link #8805 |
Senior Member
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I'm not arguing against your point of view. I'm arguing against your use of the word "possession", and I mean just the word itself. To possess someone, you must have absolute control over it, and Ultear did not have absoute control of Jellal.
Nvis, I don't think that can happen. The only reason that worked was because Natsu is bat-shit insane and reckless. He emptied his magic while inside an attacking magic. That's border-line insanity, according to Makarov. I don't think Wendy would do that, unless her life, or her friends life depended on it. |
2012-06-22, 13:09 | Link #8807 |
ANEGO Worshiper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.
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Natsu is known for lack the brain cells necessary to activate any self-preservation instinct...even Makarov was surprised not only that Natsu did it but also that it actually worked. Wendy pulling something like Natsu did is a bit out of character for her, plus she's not the sturdy, battle type that would be able to handle the side effects. If it were Laxus or Gajeel then yea, I would be surprised if they did it but Wendy...
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2012-06-22, 13:12 | Link #8808 | |
The One Eyed King
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
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Both manipulate people to do the previously impossible as long as they don't realize about the manipulation. All I'm saying is that Ultear may have done something like this to Jellal in which case he really wasn't responsible, and Shelia could be being manipulated even more thoroughly. At the very least Jellal's path was guided by a 3rd party with it's own agenda which is anything but free will from most points of view, even if he choose his own actions along that chosen path his choices where 'limited' to say the least along his guided path. It's like blaming an assassin robot for a murder... sure it choose what to do along the programming but at the end of the day it would carry out it's mission or die trying due to the programming. It's the programmers fault, the assassin robot was just the tool not the wielder, in this example.
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2012-06-22, 14:37 | Link #8809 |
Awe of She
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Orlando
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I think that possession spell was something similar to a Geass. It didn't really affect Jellal in any other way other than to make Zeref the pinnacle of what he sought instead of freedom. It could be said that it associated 'Freedom' = 'Free Zeref'. Mind you, he was a kid and was mentally exhausted due to the torture so of course the spell worked on him like a charm. Kinda scary that it was done by another kid at the time... 0.o.
For what it seemed, it was as if the spell was like a computer virus. It created a 'backdoor' into Jellal's consciousness, turning Ultear's voice into Zeref's voice and Jellal did whatever 'Zeref' told him to do. She basically made Jellal into a 'zombie terminal' and executed her '.exe' plans thru him, even allowing him to 'order' her around on her own plans to keep the lie up. It was a very elaborate manipulation but that's all I can call it - manipulation and not straight possession, in the purest sense of the word. One does not have to possess something to manipulate it.
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2012-06-22, 16:54 | Link #8811 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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I'm thinking that most god slayers are actually somehow connected to Zeref (Zancrow being the exception) or at the very least the magic having originated from his. Although based on Orga's reaction I'm guessing he has god-slayer abilities too, so that really pokes a hole in the first theory.
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2012-06-22, 17:21 | Link #8812 |
The One Eyed King
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
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Ok first off I've seen tons of "possession" movie/books/comics/manga where the "possession" wasnt total, it's totality always depends on the plot going with it so the word is a bit lose in its meaning, now moving away from that mind field.
Second I meant possession in more of the abstract, since it was a spell that controlled/directed him even when he couldn't hear Ultears voice... hence a possession since he carried it around with him and wasnt just listening to orders of someone with some voice powers who's victim would start to think on their own when not near them. In short he was carrying around this "manipulation" magic with him that put blinders on his thoughts for anything other than his orders. Now that you know why I used that word we can get away from the word but instead the concept I meant and back to the idea I put forth with it... we're starting to split hairs here. In short I said it due to the nature of the magic not being 'limited' even though Jellal wasnt made into a drooling idiot/robot due to it but others dont see it that way, whatever lets move on you now know what was meant. Third great post Tempest35
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2012-06-22, 18:19 | Link #8815 |
Banned
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Interesting. Not much to say other than what people have already said. But I will toss my hat in the ring and say that Wendy will remember what Natsu did, and duplicate it. It may seem a bit out of character for her normally, but Mashima is setting up the possibility here. She has said she doesn't like fighting, but doesn't want to let Elfman and the guild down. I think she'll at least attempt it, even if she doesn't succeed.
And there is something off about Chelia, that I bit Lamia Scale doesn't even know. I think Ryus is right that something is going on here (you don't just find Lost magic of a God Slayer level anywhere), so we'll wait and see. Anyway, she should be able to eat more air and get charged up again. And Wendy should have at least one more attack; didn't she get two new ones? Lastly, I can't see Mashima allowing Wendy to lose here. She needs to win a good fight, since she really hasn't had anything on her own. A loss here would be devastating for her, and continue to put her into the "helpless little girl" category. She needs to show why she's a dragon slayer. Although, Wendy winning by doing the same thing Natsu did, would be a bit too repetitive, which is why I think like Ryus, in that something more will happen here. But I at least expect Wendy to attempt it. |
2012-06-22, 19:45 | Link #8818 |
Know who you are
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Resides within the depths of Ned infested Glasgow
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This fight seems almost too unfair for Wendy, not only is she getting beat and Chelia brushing off her attacks like nothing, Wendy can't even compare breast sizes!
But don't worry Wendy, I think your alot cuter!
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2012-06-22, 20:03 | Link #8819 |
~defying fate
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bodhum
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it'd be funny if Jellal interfered the loli-fight, thinking Chelia is under Zeref influence, gets his cover blown away... then found out Zeref has nothing to do with Chelia and that Zeref is somewhere else instead.
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action, adventure, fantasy, shounen |
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