|
|
Thread Tools |
2013-11-10, 18:44 | Link #81 | ||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Response to Shadow5YA is in Spoiler Space below.
Spoiler for Manga and anime spoilers:
Quote:
Mami gave Homura an opportunity for the two to make amends, and Homura refused it. In fairness, Homura had understandable reasons for refusing it, given the events of Timeline 3. But Mami also had understandable reasons for thinking poorly of Homura after her interactions with Homura in the final timeline. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As long as Kyouko and Sayaka are in the same territory, and as long as Sayaka is going to hunt familiars, Sayaka is a threat to Kyouko's Grief Seed supply. Sayaka's threat doesn't end just because of one fight that ended with Sayaka still alive and able to carry out Puella Magi activities. As for Sayaka... how would you respond if somebody you recently had a brutal fight with insinuated that they wanted to turn your romantic love into a limbless person? Come on, Kyouko's threatening words to Sayaka were crystal clear. Sayaka had perfectly good reason to respond to it the way she did. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Madoka: Sayaka, you shouldn't be fighting like that. You're lying when it says it doesn't hurt. It hurt just watching you. You can't say it's Ok to hurt yourself just because you can't feel it. Sayaka: If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been able to win. I don't have any natural talent for this sort of thing. Madoka: Even if you fight like that and win, it's not going to help you out in the end. Madoka is very clearly telling Sayaka how to do her job. And, frankly, Madoka's dialogue has a whiny tone here. It's understandable that Madoka is concerned for her friend, of course, but it's also not hard to see how her tone/dialogue could be very irritating to the person on the receiving end of it. Sayaka had just been encouraged to use this exact fighting style by Kyubey, and now Madoka, a girl who refused to become Puella Magi, is telling Sayaka to go against what Kyubey told her. Regardless of who's right, it's not hard at all to see why Sayaka became pissed off with Madoka. I don't fault her for that, and I don't think anybody should. Quote:
Besides, Sayaka has a regeneration ability. That alone throws Madoka's advice into question simply as a practical matter. Quote:
They have the same goals, and the same viewpoint on what a good Puella Magi is. Quote:
Mami's desire for companionship is a separate matter. Quote:
Her overreacting to a brief moment of weakness that had no lasting negative affects does not make much sense to me. It's taking one of her character traits, and flanderizing it. This manga went too far in this regard, in my view. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Familial love is no less important than romantic love, but there may be differences in the way the two impact people. I would argue that familial love issues is more likely to numb/jade a person (as it did Kyouko), while unrequited romantic love is more likely to make a person act in an overly desperate and/or self-destructive manner. They both can have negative impacts, but they tend to be a bit different, I think. Quote:
I experienced unrequited love myself when I was a teenager, so I know what it's like. I know how self-destructive it can make a person. I know how it can lead you into taking actions that you'll later regret. So for this reason, and others, I deeply relate to Sayaka. Hence I don't find it hard at all to sympathize with her. So what you should understand is that not everybody is going to connect to characters the exact same way that you do. Largely because of the way I connect to Sayaka, I hate how she was wrote in this manga. I think this manga flanderized her, and made her carry the idiot ball to a degree that was painful to read. I think that Sayaka was much worse in this manga than she was in the source material. Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-11-10 at 19:59. |
||||||||||||||||
2013-11-11, 00:08 | Link #82 | ||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Spoiler for Manga and anime spoilers:
Quote:
Quote:
Even if Mami believed Homura had Kyouko's mentality and was lying about guaranteeing Sayaka's safety, Mami should have still found that statement a large contradiction to the "template" she had of her. Quote:
Your premise is flawed. Before all of that, why did Kyouko return to Mami's territory in the first place? If Kyouko wants to maximize her Grief Seed yield, all she has to do is stay in her own territory without competing with other magical girls. She didn't keep her stake in Sayaka's city, so she has no grounds for taking it back. Maximizing utility does not justify confrontation in this case because fighting other magical girls means wasting power and increasing their need for Grief Seeds. Then even if confrontation is justified, Kyouko's actions still contradict her goal. Recall that Kyouko did not directly attack Sayaka, but made sure to provoke her into retaliating. One time is enough to confirm a friend or foe. There was no need for Kyouko to talk about Kyousuke the second time she confronted Sayaka. If removing the hindrance was Kyouko's true motive, then she could have made the first move and attacked Sayaka without a word, but she didn't. Kyouko was quite clearly picking on Sayaka because of her own experience. She always has. Quote:
[QUOTE=Triple_R;4904266] Quote:
I fault her for lashing out like that as much as I would fault someone like Father Sakura calling his own daughter a Witch and binge drinking over it. What they did may be well within human emotional capacity, but not everything within human capacity is acceptable. Whether you sympathize with her or not, it doesn't change that Sayaka was being stubborn. She hates herself and only felt worse after seeing her friend upset over what she did instead of happy. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sayaka respects this idolized image of Mami as a hero protecting the powerless, so she wants to become just like her. Again, while their motives are similar, they're not entirely the same. Mami's ideals are slightly more grounded than Sayaka's due to their difference in experience. Quote:
Sayaka's moment of weakness had no lasting negative effects on others in the anime either, and yet she still spiraled into despair all the time. She betrayed her ideals, and as she told Kyouko before she finally transformed, protecting someone means hurting others in the process. Whether in the anime or this manga, Sayaka believed herself to be a hypocrite. Even if you are precisely correct and Sayaka is regretting her wish, it still changes nothing. In that case, Sayaka would be consciously desiring for Kyousuke to be crippled again so that Hitomi doesn't meet with him as often as Sayaka does. It's a Catch 22 scenario where Sayaka can't imagine a route that would lead her to being happy with Kyousuke without harming Hitomi or anyone else. Quote:
Quote:
Whether it's for the best is not always the issue. The fact that they don't always make the best choice emotionally or rationally is what naturally leads to their Soul Gems getting corrupted or them getting killed. Quote:
There is no such responsibility between mere love interests. Kyousuke or any teen is not obligated to reciprocate someone's feelings if theirs are not the same. Unlike familial love, the ties behind young, romantic love are purely emotional. With less rational obligation to care, cases of unrequited romantic love are far more likely to occur than cases of unrequited familial love. If familial love is absent, then it's just called neglect, or even abuse depending on the case. Quote:
Quote:
Are you really telling me Sayaka is that much worse from what little she did do in a couple of chapters before it shifts focus back to Mami and Kyouko again? The way you talk about it, you make it sound like it drags on for several tens of chapters. It almost makes me forget that the manga is only 12 chapters |
||||||||||||||
2013-11-11, 14:37 | Link #83 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Response to Shadow5YA in spoiler space below...
Spoiler for Manga and anime spoilers:
Quote:
In any event, Mami wanted to tie Homura up to ensure that Homura didn't attempt to kill Kyubey while Mami was preoccupied with fighting a witch. Homura had very recently attempted to kill Kyubey, and Homura had rejected an olive branch offering from Mami. So Mami's actions here make perfectly good sense. Quote:
Quote:
Kyouko and Sayaka had good reasons for being at odds with each other, and getting into fights with each other. Quote:
Quote:
There's no good reason, none whatsoever, for Sayaka to fail to see how she can be useful to Mami. It's plainly obvious. It makes sense for Sayaka to feel badly over what occurred here. But I would argue that the more in-character response for Sayaka would be trying to make it up to Mami by being a better partner, not severing their partnership hence leaving Mami to fend for herself which is obviously the more dangerous alternative. Sayaka did not do anything this stupid in this source material. At least not until she felt overwhelmed by enemies with no good allies to turn to. Sayaka does not have that sort of justification in this manga, and that's a big part of the reason why I think the way she was wrote in this manga was a caricature of how she normally is. Quote:
That slower reaction speed means Sayaka can't evade attacks as well as she once could. So in exchange for trying to evade attacks (but risking them being debilitatingly painful), Sayaka becomes a slower fighter but is able to endure direct attacks without feeling pain. It's a debatable tradeoff, of course, but I don't think it's a clear-cut matter, given Sayaka's regeneration abilities. Quote:
Quote:
Almost all of anime!Sayaka's questionable actions/decisions that you've pointed to happen after the "I'm a zombie" reveal, which clearly had a huge impact on Sayaka, and understandably so I think. Sayaka had nothing that severe in this manga, which is why I don't think she should have been that self-destructive. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You obviously don't like Sayaka as much as I do, so I can understand you not having the same problems with this manga as I do. So there's also no need for you to continue defending how Sayaka is wrote in this manga. We've debated this pretty exhaustively now, and my opinion hasn't changed at all. If yours also hasn't changed at all, then we should probably just agree to disagree when it comes to this manga. However, one last point... Quote:
While Sayaka's decline in the anime was not exactly slow, at least it was a bit gradual. At least it didn't look like Sayaka completely gave up until she saw Kyousuke and Hitomi hanging out together, that being the proverbial final straw after many more before it (Mami's death, getting dominated in a fight by Kyouko, being continually at odds with Kyouko and Homura, feeling like her body is a zombie, etc...). I felt that anime!Sayaka at least had some resolve. Here in this manga, one moment of weakness, and Kyouko taunting her a bit, is enough to completely destroy Sayaka's resolve. I found that pathetic. |
||||||||||||
2013-11-15, 13:25 | Link #84 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Spoiler for Manga and anime spoilers:
Quote:
Quote:
Even if Mami couldn't afford to set Homura free, she could at the least be a little more cautious with how she fights, but she wasn't. She treated Charlotte like any other Witch, and grew increasingly careless after Madoka told her something she should have already known - that she has real friends that won't leave her alone. Hell, the Witch barrier wasn't even down! There was no reason for Mami to assume her work was done so soon. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If Kyouko was opposed to Sayaka's ideals so badly because of the Grief Seeds, she would have chosen to return to Mitakihara much sooner when Mami was alive. Sayaka's ideals were adopted from Mami, and it's clear Mami would have chosen to defeat familiars as well with no Grief Seeds to gain. Why didn't Kyouko pick a fight with Mami? Kyouko personally picked a fight with Sayaka and provoked her because she was projecting her old self onto her. Kyouko even states how she connects with Sayaka when she goes out of her way to tell her about her past, and then again when she was deciding how to deal with Sayaka's Witch form. Sayaka's wish for the sake of others embodies the same ideals Kyouko had before her family fell to ruin. Kyouko blamed herself for being foolish because of how nothing good came out of her wish. From Kyouko's perspective, Sayaka is just as naïve as she was. Quote:
You even stated that Mami appeared to be the reliable older senpai. That's exactly how she appeared to them. She can take care of herself. Sayaka's contribution is not necessary, and if Mami is competent enough to not get hurt in the first place, Sayaka's healing ability is not needed. Quote:
Quote:
To Sayaka, Mami is strong enough to take care of herself. Of course she would brush off an accident like that. However, there is no changing the fact that Sayaka legitimately desired Hitomi's death. From Sayaka's perspective, she is a hypocrite. She even implies this much in an earlier conversation with Kyouko: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1)not confessing to Kyousuke, to which she has her own reasons like generally not wanted to get him too close to her dangerous Witch fighting life, and throwing a bone to Hitomi for what she did to her, and 2)generally sulking and distancing herself, which is a very common emotional reaction. It would be odd if that's all it took to cause her to transform, but she doesn't show up enough in the manga to conclude that. Compare that with the anime, where she 1) was visibily portrayed to look neurotic after the Elsa Maria fight 2) actively refused to use Grief Seeds 3) used her powers to attack two bystanders on the train because she found them detestable Reasons aside for either medium, I don't know how you can think Sayaka made any expression or action that made her look anywhere near as crazy as she did in the anime. Sayaka was even calmer in this manga when dealing with Kyouko. Quote:
First, "clear-cut evidence" as you call it means little if you only have one or two outstanding achievements over the course of your career. If you think that should enough to emotionally reassure Sayaka, then you also call her portrayal in the anime to question. Sayaka saved Madoka from H.N. Elly. Why was Sayaka so quick to label herself as a monster? There should be nothing calling her integrity into question. Being inhuman does not logically equate to monster, especially when there is empirical evidence of the existence of their souls. Second, Kyouko did not criticize Sayaka based on that event. The only one who weighed that event so heavily in her mind was Sayaka. Kyouko was criticizing her based on her beliefs long before that happened, and that event was only one example that proved her right. Quote:
However, you keep on asserting that Sayaka had no reason behind her actions, rationally or emotionally. I presented those reasons. You just keep denying them on the basis of them being destructive, which is entirely different there being no explanation at all. You also keep jumping back and forth between arguing what's rationally benefical and what's simply within emotional capability. I'm telling you that there are clear and natural emotional reasons behind the characters' actions, and you then keep refusing them based on them not being beneficial, which is an entirely different standard. Quote:
Second, you do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that Sayaka's fall was abrupt at all in this manga. We do not see her transition to Witch (only after the fact), and there have been several timeskips in this manga. You cannot reasonably say that Sayaka fell to complete despair solely on those events alone, and you're entirely wrong in claiming that she became a Witch only shortly after leaving Mami. It is true that this manga doesn't treat Sayaka fairly, but that is because her entire side of the story is not shown (because the focus was on Mami and Kyouko), not because of what you continue to suggest. Quote:
But if you find being inhuman = monster regardless of having a soul is a much more understandable than hating yourself because you're a hypocrite who betrayed your own values that you held so highly, then let's agree to disagree based on the fact that people do have different values, not that having different values from you means being pathetic or having no reason behind your actions. |
|||||||||||||||
2013-11-16, 11:48 | Link #85 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Reply to Shadow5YA in spoiler space below...
Spoiler for Anime and manga spoilers:
Quote:
Quote:
During the time period between Mami's fallout with Kyouko, and Mami meeting Madoka and Sayaka, it is strongly implied that Mami's really didn't have any friends. We certainly never see Mami socializing with other people, aside from Madoka and Sayaka. It's perfectly understandable for Mami to be on that emotional high that unfortunately made her a bit sloppy. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sayaka had much more valid reason to not confess to Kyousuke in the anime than she did in the manga. In the manga, Kyousuke even gave her the perfect opportunity to confess. In the anime, she had no such good opportunity. Quote:
No, Sayaka went farther than that in this manga. She explicitly and totally severed things with Mami, to the point where it was handled almost like a romantic break-up (consider Sayaka's tears after she severed things with Mami). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
She didn't try any of that. So no, she didn't really try. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
However, I'm glad you can at least admit that this manga did not treat Sayaka fairly. I'm glad we agree on that much at least. Quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||
2013-11-17, 12:47 | Link #86 | |||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Spoiler for anime and manga spoilers:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Those feelings play a large role in Kyouko's actions and are the only consistent part about her character that would explain why she chose to tell only Sayaka about her past, and why she chose to gamble against Oktavia, and later kamikaze against her despite there being no real way to save a Witch. Quote:
And keep in mind that Sayaka did not defeat the Witch that injured Mami -- Kyouko and Homura did, which makes it look even worse for Sayaka because not one, but three people in all had to cover for her. So no, Sayaka was not "very useful". To the readers, Sayaka is useful because we are genre-savvy and know how useful a healing ability can be. To Sayaka, she was just applying first-aid. With Kyubey giving her orders to do so, I'm pretty sure the scene was meant to look like a person applying first-aid instead of being a miracle that only Sayaka could do. Quote:
And why is it fine that Mami can believe she can take Witches on her own in the anime, but Sayaka who idolizes Mami can't believe the same thing? How does getting hurt because your partner was a liability and a detriment in fighting prove that Mami would get hurt fighting on her own? Quote:
In Sayaka's final exchange to Kyouko (which also happened to be at the train station, she talks about how hope and despair are a zero-sum game. "For as much happiness as we wish on one person, we can't help but curse someone else. That's how it works for us magical girls." Sayaka realized that she isn't a hero of justice and is as selfish as anyone else. Understanding that destroyed her resolve in any medium. Quote:
Quote:
Again, remember that she was actively refusing to use Grief Seeds. Using Grief Seeds is one of the first and most basic things that Mami told her and Madoka about magical girls. Without using Grief Seeds, her magic is greatly limited in supply. She can't afford to use her healing magic so frequently. In fact, I would wager that was why Sayaka lost her life even in the TV version of the Law of Cycles world. It's quite obvious that she wasn't efficient with her magic. Quote:
Quote:
Remember that Sayaka told Kyousuke she would tell him everything "in a day's time". Hitomi gave Sayaka a day to confess. It's heavily implied that Sayaka was giving up her chance to Hitomi out of guilt for leaving her to die. Giving up one day is the least she can do for almost costing Hitomi her life. Quote:
If Sayaka had tried to fight the Witch, even if it was half-heartedly due to her emotions, she would have had some proof there was some part of her who did her job protecting others. However, she didn't and openly admits to letting Hitomi die intentionally - not by accident. That fact will never go away, which means Sayaka has reason to believe she will never be a hero worthy of being by Mami's side. Quote:
You are identifying with the devastating loss with her humanity when Quote:
One achievement that wasn't even entirely her own isn't something to be proud about, especially when you needed the help of sworn rivals/enemies that openly oppose your ideals.. With Sayaka's mind being elsewhere, it should be easy to see that she wasn't pulling her own weight. Quote:
I can understand Sayaka withholding her confession from Kyousuke in the anime because she feels that she is now an entirely different species, but viewing herself to be a monster devoid of integrity is another issue. Regardless of what beliefs you have, the soul is nearly always defined to be something that carries the essence of who or what you are. Considering the existence of such a thing is shown to be even tangible and intact to Sayaka, she does not have a reason to disregard the fact that she is the person who saved a close friend and the guy she loves. Quote:
Madoka would also need several days before she can reasonably conclude Sayaka has been upset recently and tell Mami about it before Sayaka does. So at the very least, Sayaka did stay and fight together with Mami a bit more before she left. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Even if Sayaka couldn't believe she was the same person she was before she became a magical girl, what reason does she have to believe she's not the same person who protected Madoka from a Witch and healed the one guy she loved? Her Soul Gem had the same form back then as it did after Madoka tossed it out. What reason does she have to actively refuse using Grief Seeds when she was fine using them before and had no knowledge of the truth behind them? Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-11-17 at 13:10. |
|||||||||||||||||||
2014-09-08, 09:10 | Link #87 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
|
Omg so I saw this on a bookshelf the other day and always heard about how this story goes into more detail on Kyouko's past but like nobody told me Mami was her girlfriend sempai because man those yuri vibes and Kyouko's adoration for Mami was like d'aaawww but then I remembered Mami and Kyouko never meet in the anime so I knew they were gonna have to split eventually and sure enough at the end of the first volume it happened and I was all b'aaawww because damn they really look good together even though we really didn't learn anything more about Mami but man Kyouko's life with her family was heart-wrenchingly bittersweet knowing what's coming next and geez her conversation with her father really stung like I'd flip if I heard my own family say that AHEM but anyway yah this manga makes me ship Kyouko and Mami now because red and blonde are a lethal combo okay I think I'm done fangirling now.
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|