[MANGA] Bleach Weekly Chapter 500+ Discussion

[Alchemist007]

That's a good one!

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Mangs

Why Unohana? She's the captain of a non-combat division.

Her position as leader of a non-combat division doesn't really mean anything IMO. I choose to believe Unohana could be a war potential for the following 5 reasons. One of which has to do precisely with a reason you just mentioned.

Originally Posted by Mangs

Just because we haven't seen her fight doesn't mean she's strong.

1.) As you said, we haven't seen her fight. So depending on how rare a spectacle it is to see her in action, the Sternritters may have virtually no combat intel on her either. So if that's the case, naturally they'd have no choice but to assume her to be one of the potentials precisely because she is of at least captain level strength and her combat skills and prowess could be unknown. I think the only thing about her that's common knowledge is that she's a master Kendo style user and an obvious Kido specialist. This brings me to point #2.

2.) As the most proficient medical expert in Soul Society, Unohana is likely one of (if not) the most proficient Kidou experts among the Gotei 13 captains. So if there's anyone among the captains aside from Ken and Yamamoto that has a solid chance of standing there ground even without a zanpakuto, it's her.

3.) There seems to be a direct correlation between how powerful a captain is and their seniority. For example, Yamamoto is by far the oldest and most powerful. After that comes Shunsui and Ukitake who most fans have regarded as the most powerful and balanced fighters among the rest of the captains. These two also just happen to be among the oldest of the captains. This just leaves Unohana. And she's supposed to be the second oldest Captain among them. So if the pattern holds up, she'll likely be no pushover as well.

4.) Even members of the most disrespectful, rowdiest, most violent squad (11) show fear of her. Now its possible that the fear most people have demonstrated towards her could be solely for comedic effect. On the other hand, its possible that there could be more reasons why characters seem to instinctively know not to mess with her when she makes a request. Squad 11 members in particular don't seem like a bunch to care about giving respect to anyone just because of rank as even the lowest ranking members of that squad won't listen to someone like Isane. They seem to respect strength first and foremost. So if members of that squad fear her, its an interesting sign.

5.) Speaking of fear, her name is Unohana Retsu (卯ノ花 烈). "Retsu" (烈) translated means "violent". It's always struck me as a sort of obvious attempt by Kubo to foreshadow a side of her that's completely contradictive of her role and her usual mannerisms.

So I'm not saying she's definitely a war potential. But from Kubo's PoV, it's an easy twist to take advantage of after hyping her up for so long (whether he intended to or not).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by sayde

1.) As you said, we haven't seen her fight. So depending on how rare a spectacle it is to see her in action, the Sternritters may have virtually no combat intel on her either.

true but the same can be said about shunsui and ukitake. they are even on record as saying shunsui's bankai is dangerous to use so the shitritters might not want it depending on what it is. also same as kisuke and yoruichi in terms of hiding their bankais thus far.

i think you're reasoning is good to put her as a possibility but i dont see it. i'm more inclined to think the other 3 potentials are aizen, ishida and grimmjow basically because they are something different and not just all soul reapers like other lists i've seen. but who knows? kubo has switched power rankings around so much that it's impossible to guess anything based on the lack of logic in the story.

just look at the kenpachi, byakuya dynamic. byakuya was better as seen in their first fights vs ichigo, byakuya stood up to ichigo's bankai whereas kenpachi fell before he even had it. then in HM they were about equal in power as seen in the yami fight. now byakuya dies to 1 shitritter and kenpachi can easily beat 3 of them... all this power rank changing when neither of them even displayed any major training or powering up...

[prakash123]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i'm more inclined to think the other 3 potentials are aizen, ishida and grimmjow basically because they are something different and not just all soul reapers like other lists i've seen.

well yea at this point im hoping a comeback from grimmjow.and i badly wanna see aizen kick some ass also

[sayde]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

true but the same can be said about shunsui and ukitake. they are even on record as saying shunsui's bankai is dangerous to use so the shitritters might not want it depending on what it is. also same as kisuke and yoruichi in terms of hiding their bankais thus far.

I think you might've misinterpreted my point. I wasn't merely implying that Unohana should be a potential because her bankai could be unknown to the Sternritters like Shunsui and Ukitake. I was trying to imply that her overall strength and combat skills without bankai could be a complete mystery to the Sternritters unlike Shunsui and Ukitake who seem to engage in battle more often than her. So their strength and combat capabilities (without Bankai) are more likely to have been gauged and analyzed to a greater extent in comparison to Unohana.

Truth be told, if they're able to gather enough intel to predict the strength of a captain without bankai, that could be all the intel they need on them. Because regardless of whether the sternritters know what a bankai does or not beforehand, they have the option of stealing it without using it. This means there should be no need to gamble outcomes on unknown bankai's for as long as their own strength proves enough to finish the job.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i think you're reasoning is good to put her as a possibility but i dont see it. i'm more inclined to think the other 3 potentials are aizen, ishida and grimmjow basically because they are something different and not just all soul reapers like other lists i've seen. but who knows? kubo has switched power rankings around so much that it's impossible to guess anything based on the lack of logic in the story.

Like I said above, I'm not about to argue against anyones personal picks because your guess's are as good as mine. But I don't mind defending my own choices for the sake of conversation.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

just look at the kenpachi, byakuya dynamic. byakuya was better as seen in their first fights vs ichigo, byakuya stood up to ichigo's bankai whereas kenpachi fell before he even had it. then in HM they were about equal in power as seen in the yami fight. now byakuya dies to 1 shitritter and kenpachi can easily beat 3 of them... all this power rank changing when neither of them even displayed any major training or powering up...

I get the impression you were kind of implying that all the Sternritters (minus Juha Bach of course) are all roughly of the same strength. However, that might not be the case at all. We really haven't had much opportunity to grasp how strong each member is in comparison to the next. All we know so far is that some of them have gotten beaten quickly, some are holding their own, and one of them has taken out a captain. So its possible that Byakuya's opponent was a fair deal stronger than the fodder Ken took down. It doesn't necessarily have to mean Kenpachi was stronger than Byakuya in the end. Kubo's also not above using abilities to determine outcomes. Having said that, Byakuya may have just happened to be matched up with the wrong opponent this time as Nodt's fear inducing abilities were just too much to handle. It might not have much to do with power ranking inconsistencies at all (this time).

[Hisoka??]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

true but the same can be said about shunsui and ukitake. they are even on record as saying shunsui's bankai is dangerous to use so the shitritters might not want it depending on what it is. also same as kisuke and yoruichi in terms of hiding their bankais thus far.

i think you're reasoning is good to put her as a possibility but i dont see it. i'm more inclined to think the other 3 potentials are aizen, ishida and grimmjow basically because they are something different and not just all soul reapers like other lists i've seen. but who knows? kubo has switched power rankings around so much that it's impossible to guess anything based on the lack of logic in the story.

just look at the kenpachi, byakuya dynamic. byakuya was better as seen in their first fights vs ichigo, byakuya stood up to ichigo's bankai whereas kenpachi fell before he even had it. then in HM they were about equal in power as seen in the yami fight. now byakuya dies to 1 shitritter and kenpachi can easily beat 3 of them... all this power rank changing when neither of them even displayed any major training or powering up...

I don't see any problem with the Kenpachi, Byakuya dynamic. During the soul society arc, Byakuya had full command of his powers including Bankai. Whereas now, Byakuya is without his Bankai and logically much weaker now.

It would merely mean that Bankai Byakuya > Kenpachi > Shikai Byakuya. Not idea where 2H Kenpachi stands though


As for why Squad 11 guys are wary of Unohana, maybe it is just because she is very naggy

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Hisoka??

As for why Squad 11 guys are wary of Unohana, maybe it is just because she is very naggy

People don't typically fear nagging though. Can it be annoying to deal with? Definitely. But scary? Not so much. The fear they show is kind of reminiscent to a child afraid of a parent threatening to spank them.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by sayde

I was trying to imply that her overall strength and combat skills without bankai could be a complete mystery to the Sternritters unlike Shunsui and Ukitake who seem to engage in battle more often than her.

ah. point taken. she's even more mysterious than yama-jii

I get the impression you were kind of implying that all the Sternritters (minus Juha Bach of course) are all roughly of the same strength. However, that might not be the case at all. ... It might not have much to do with power ranking inconsistencies at all (this time).

its obviously true that i dont know the shitritter power rankings, but i still think kenpachi beating 3 and byakuya dying to 1 is off balance. take the espada for instance. it took 1 captain to beat even the lesser ones. its not like 1 captain could beat numbers 7-9 without a scratch while 1 other captain (who was previously shown as much stronger) would die to number 3 or something. also, i think there is no reason to assume juha bach brought fodder shitritters to the party. they obviously have a great understanding of SS's power. why would he bring shitritters who would just die instantly?

Originally Posted by Hisoka??

I don't see any problem with the Kenpachi, Byakuya dynamic. During the soul society arc, Byakuya had full command of his powers including Bankai. Whereas now, Byakuya is without his Bankai and logically much weaker now.

but on HM we saw them fighting on equal ground. fighting ichigo bankai is much more intense than fighting pre-bankai ichigo. and kenpachi moved up the power ladder for no reason. now we see their different outcomes vs shitritters. and kenpachi didnt even take his eye patch off... its true byakuya lost his bankai (out of stupidity during the fight itself) but he didnt even try much kidou. he had other methods of fighting but was just weak. kenpachi fought himself (another shitritter technique) which is a similar fight to facing your bankai and he emerged unscathed

[Mindblower]

Originally Posted by Calca

I think it's nice to show that Sasikabe actually had a personally. It's a shame Kubo waited till months after he killed him off to show it.

Younger Yama-ji was Mr. Satan

no the alive one was mr satan, in the end he really did become strong.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

its obviously true that i dont know the shitritter power rankings, but i still think kenpachi beating 3 and byakuya dying to 1 is off balance. take the espada for instance. it took 1 captain to beat even the lesser ones. its not like 1 captain could beat numbers 7-9 without a scratch while 1 other captain (who was previously shown as much stronger) would die to number 3 or something.

I don't know. I can understand your disappointment. But while I agree that the way Kubo made things play out was rather anti-climactic for Byakuya, I still think Kubo at least provided enough circumstances to make his defeat feel justified.

Afterall, the fact is Kenpachi was the only captain in this war who didn't have to worry about adapting his usual style to a major handicap. He was also fortunate enough to fight two opponents who lacked an ability to counter Ken's natural strengths. He hardly deserves any credit for that third kill.

Conversely, not only did Byakuya have to deal with having his own power being used against him (while he had no access to it himself), he also had to deal with an abnormal amount of fear--so its at least plausible that he wasn't able to think clearly enough to come up with an alternative method to fight back in time.

Byakuya had A LOT going against him in comparison to Ken. His power was limited and his mind was in the wrong condition for battle. Top those facts with the possibility that Noct could share a disparity in power from some other sternritters reminiscent to say Shunsui and Komamura (for example), and I think Byakuya's defeat becomes very well justified.

Now that I think of it, this could be the case if my theory about the Sternritters is correct. That being those whose letters are closer to A are the strongest while those closer to Z are the weakest. Now Nodt was letter F. That's far closer to A than the highest lettered member Kenpachi killed off (letter Q).

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

also, i think there is no reason to assume juha bach brought fodder shitritters to the party. they obviously have a great understanding of SS's power. why would he bring shitritters who would just die instantly?

Juha Bach may not have considered any of his followers to be fodder, but that wouldn't change the fact that they still amounted to nothing but fodder within the context of the plot (which was all I meant).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by sayde

I don't know. I can understand your disappointment. But while I agree that the way Kubo made things play out was rather anti-climactic for Byakuya, I still think Kubo at least provided enough circumstances to make his defeat feel justified.

i totally agree. i have no qualms with byakuya's death. i have a problem with kenpachi beating 3 of them while barely trying. and then of course getting beat off screen but that's another discussion

Now that I think of it, this could be the case if my theory about the Sternritters is correct. That being those whose letters are closer to A are the strongest while those closer to Z are the weakest. Now Nodt was letter F. That's far closer to A than the highest lettered member Kenpachi killed off (letter Q).

yea that's probably correct. i still see a big power switch between byakuya and kenpachi for no legitimate reason but agree to disagree i guess

[sayde]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i totally agree. i have no qualms with byakuya's death. i have a problem with kenpachi beating 3 of them while barely trying. and then of course getting beat off screen but that's another discussion

Yeah. I feel your pain. I mean of the 26 members they probably have, its a little mean to let Ken solo 3 of them while Byakuya gets none them before his defeat.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea that's probably correct. i still see a big power switch between byakuya and kenpachi for no legitimate reason but agree to disagree i guess

Fair enough. Good discussion btw.

[Alchemist007]

There's also the fact that Byakuya tried to use his Bankai, which in turn was used against him. Kenpachi probably bull-rushed his victims. I think the guy who beat Byakuya would've been an ideal opponent for Kenpachi actually, seeing as how he had fought Tousen in the SS arc and that was a sort of 'fear' battle in an of itself. Kenpachi hasn't hesitated yet.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i totally agree. i have no qualms with byakuya's death. i have a problem with kenpachi beating 3 of them while barely trying. and then of course getting beat off screen but that's another discussion

yea that's probably correct. i still see a big power switch between byakuya and kenpachi for no legitimate reason but agree to disagree i guess

J got his butt kicked pretty easily by Ichigo. With J being the 10th letter, that would mean Ichigo took out a top 10 guy (with a small assist from Urahara)

[Hisoka??]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but on HM we saw them fighting on equal ground. fighting ichigo bankai is much more intense than fighting pre-bankai ichigo. and kenpachi moved up the power ladder for no reason. now we see their different outcomes vs shitritters. and kenpachi didnt even take his eye patch off... its true byakuya lost his bankai (out of stupidity during the fight itself) but he didnt even try much kidou. he had other methods of fighting but was just weak. kenpachi fought himself (another shitritter technique) which is a similar fight to facing your bankai and he emerged unscathed

We've seen all along that a captain's strength is essentially in his Bankai. I won't be surprised that he is only at half strength. His lack of other skills and tactics aside, seems quite fair for him to lose easily.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Calca

J got his butt kicked pretty easily by Ichigo. With J being the 10th letter, that would mean Ichigo took out a top 10 guy (with a small assist from Urahara)

Indeed. But Ichigo also had access to Bankai. (Something to consider)

[GDiddy]

J was still strong enough though to take out three people, including a former shinigami captain.

[j0x]

Yamamoto released his Bankai... shit got epicly serious!!!

[Knjaz]

Originally Posted by j0x

Yamamoto released his Bankai... shit got epicly serious!!!

Wtf? So we can expect SS to get raped by Yama's bankai in hands of Jucha?

EDIT: Ok nvm, it happened.

At least Jucha seems... surprised by that turn of events. Guess, he never saw it before

[Kafriel]

Yamamoto released his Bankai...

...when he knows the enemy can steal it. Lawls.