Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

It's always amazing when someone new joins the discussion and just states stuff at which we arrived after months of back and forth between the Sheryl and Ranka fans.

A very good analysis, Thess.

Kawamori's subtle hints of Alto's feelings make him a very cleaver man.

And I can't believe I am posting in the Romance thread again...

But for Sheryl, I guess its inevitable... *sigh*

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

A very good analysis, Thess.

Thank you.

That said, movies can go either way. Like I suspected above, I think Alto/Ranka is more possible in that 'verse (due to the changes and the potential Sheryl marketing appeal that seemed unexpected. The switch from Marketing Ranka to Marketing Sheryl in official stuff).

I think that pairing is more believable than in the TV series, where Alto seems unable to compromise anything important for Ranka, while movie wise, he seems capable to establish a real connection with her.

The little tributes are also cute. The Myung/Isamu with Sheryl and Alto, plus the Sara/Shin with Alto and Ranka.

To be completely honest, I dig the movie relationships as a balanced OT3 more than in the TV series. The three of them worked perfectly together in the first movie (there weren't 'weaker links' for Sheryl/Ranka, Alto/Sheryl, Alto/Ranka). It's sad, the one I want resolved ended in pseudo triangular, and in the other that would be resolved I prefer the polygamy option. Gdi, Kawamori, you're trolling me on purpose.

Originally Posted by Tak

But for Sheryl, I guess its inevitable... *sigh*

I'm sorry for reviving this thread. I suddenly recalled that and I wanted to be sure. I'll keep my fingers crossed for Sheryl to get a decent resolution (with Ranka Alto or not).

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

And I can't believe I am posting in the Romance thread again...

But for Sheryl, I guess its inevitable... *sigh*

- Tak

You say that as if it's a dirty thing, tshtshtsh.

Time to put on your Sheryl cosplay outfit again, buddy.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Time to put on your Sheryl cosplay outfit again, buddy.

Hell no, that and the earrings are sitting in a frame, forever!

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Hell no, that and the earrings are sitting in a frame, forever!

- Tak

Until the day the last Ranka shipper cries uncle, then!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Hell no, that and the earrings are sitting in a frame, forever!

- Tak

You should try them on and see if they connect you with certain Galactic Fairy.

[wisteria233]

A continuation of our chat with Thess.

For the record I did read your analysis and I do agree with it, though I also have many other reasons for holding the same views you did in terms of the end of the love triangle.

[Thess]

Okay.

To continue with some points:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

But that doesn't change the fact that they are all the songstresses of their series. While Sharon Apple was the image Myung was the song, besides that Sharon Apple also doesn't appear in that CD does she? I think them appearing the the CD had more to do with other reasons, and wasn't dependent on their role as being the singer of their series.

To me it changes it in the acknowledgment. If you see who are mentioned as legendary singers in TFS are Minmay, Sharon Apple (doesn't matter Myung was behind her song, Sharon is the star) and Fire Bomber (Basara mostly). It shouldn't be that way, but it's a repeating tradition.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Oh trust me they did, during the original airing of Macross Frontier Ranka did have more pictures than Sheryl, who only seemed to get more pictures after they realized that she was more popular. In series though Ranka overshadowed Sheryl, but to quite a few viewers Sheryl overshadowed Ranka in terms of song, love, and characterization. Irony is funny is it not?

I... haven't said anything that I disagree with it? I said that Ranka used to be promoted over Sheryl, but Sheryl overshadowed her popularity. I think Ranka was mean to be a single star while Sheryl the romantic lead. But the issue was with growing May'n popularity and Sheryl's appeal in general, you know? So Sheryl defined her musical career while Ranka's... was shaky?

It's no secret who ranks higher in charts, polls, etc.

Used to, keywords. Sheryl turned this around which IMO

Spoiler for spoilers for triangle resolution in movie:

why they hesitated to resolve the triangle in the tv series, besides of Alto's lack of self-awareness. They weren't dealing with a couple + marketable star. But a palpable goldmine star and a more modest success that created a conflict of interest. This is why I said it's not about Ranka, it was all about Sheryl.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Yeah the love triangle was always pretty one-sided in the tv series, I mean Alto only reacts to Ranka in the tv series only once, and there's no follow up after that, Ranka pretty much just loses touch with him. I mean even the promotional material used to show Alto and Sheryl in romantic situations or poses, while Ranka was just depicted as either a person to be saved, or as the little sister. (eg: there is one picture with Alto in Ranka's room, but its far from romantic as Ranka is wearing what looks like an animal suit. In said picture Ranka was drawn younger, so much so that my friends thought that she was Alto's little sister. Said picture was one of the last promotional materials for the tv series.

I had real trouble to take Ranka/Alto very seriously TV series wise when they dressed her like a 10 years old sometimes... Movie wise (first movie at any rate), this was so much better handled in terms of chemistry. They got the rid off those creepy outfits that projected some unfortunate pedophilia vibes.

I do think Alto WAS attracted to Ranka (he did blush, didn't he?)... but his feelings for Sheryl simply grew stronger. He could commit to remain on Sheryl's side, not to Ranka's. That speaks louder than words. To Ranka, he wanted her to sing. He puts Frontier over her life. To Sheryl, he didn't demand her to sing. He puts her life over Frontier.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Thess

Okay.
To me it changes it in the acknowledgment. If you see who are mentioned as legendary singers in TFS are Minmay, Sharon Apple (doesn't matter Myung was behind her song, Sharon is the star) and Fire Bomber (Basara mostly). It shouldn't be that way, but it's a repeating tradition.

Mylenne also tends to get overshadowed by Basara during the series as well.

I... haven't said anything that I disagree with it? I said that Ranka used to be promoted over Sheryl, but Sheryl overshadowed her popularity. I think Ranka was mean to be a single star while Sheryl the romantic lead. But the issue was with growing May'n popularity and Sheryl's appeal in general, you know? So Sheryl defined her musical career while Ranka's... was shaky?

Sorry I wasn't arguing with you over that. Yes but that's not an in series example, that's more of a fan reaction. It really didn't help matters that NakaMegu doesn't stray away from the Ranka archetype, which was very specific meanwhile Sheryl's archetype was not. May'n was allowed to show some range in her singing, while NakaMegu was not.

Used to, keywords. Sheryl turned this around which IMO

Spoiler for spoilers for triangle resolution in movie:

why they hesitated to resolve the triangle in the tv series, besides of Alto's lack of self-awareness. They weren't dealing with a couple + marketable star. But a palpable goldmine star and a more modest success that created a conflict of interest. This is why I said it's not about Ranka, it was all about Sheryl.

Again

Spoiler for ending:

Not really considering that towards the end of the tv series a lot of the promotional material leaned towards Sheryl/Alto, while Ranka was just shown in a position as the songstress. I remember there being an official picture which had Klan Klan, Nanase and Sheryl holding dolls of Mikhail, Luca, and Alto respectively meanwhile Ranka just held onto her bag. I think that they Sheryl and Alto actually had more official art together and in the non platonic sense than Ranka and Alto ever did. Though I highly doubt that Alto wasn't aware during the series.

I had real trouble to take Ranka/Alto very seriously TV series wise when they dressed her like a 10 years old sometimes... Movie wise (first movie at any rate), this was so much better handled in terms of chemistry. They got the rid off those creepy outfits that projected some unfortunate pedophilia vibes.

I do think Alto WAS attracted to Ranka (he did blush, didn't he?)... but his feelings for Sheryl simply grew stronger. He could commit to remain on Sheryl's side, not to Ranka's. That speaks louder than words. To Ranka, he wanted her to sing. He puts Frontier over her life. To Sheryl, he didn't demand her to sing. He puts her life over Frontier.

Thing of the matter was that I also couldn't take Ranka/Alto very seriously but it was because of Ranka's in action as well as the fact that Alto had to be pushed by their friends in that relationship, while Alto made no effort area. They also didn't have the chemistry of a couple, they tended to remind me of the little sister who had a crush on her older sister's boyfriend, who knows and doesn't want to encourage it. The movie did handle it better, even though the set up for it in hindsight was against Ranka, at least they actually look like peers now.

Yeah that's true, Ranka was very cute. But your right at the end of the day Alto didn't have to be pushed to protect Sheryl, he never had to be pushed to chase after her, he'd do that all on his own. I think that Mikhail may have realized that which is why he stops pushing Alto to spend time with Ranka. With Ranka he made a promise to protect her not to stay by her side, a promise that in hindsight wasn't motivated by any attraction Alto may or may not have had to her. With Sheryl he made a promise to stay by her side, and previously had broken a promise he made to himself just to see her. I remember the episode when Alto is arguing with Mikhail over Sheryl, whom Alto believes that Mikhail his best friend mind you maybe using to get to Grace. He was protective of Sheryl way back in episode 11 without needing to make promises. To me that spoke left a bigger impression.

[choji]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Thing of the matter was that I also couldn't take Ranka/Alto very seriously but it was because of Ranka's in action as well as the fact that Alto had to be pushed by their friends in that relationship, while Alto made no effort area. They also didn't have the chemistry of a couple, they tended to remind me of the little sister who had a crush on her older sister's boyfriend, who knows and doesn't want to encourage it. The movie did handle it better, even though the set up for it in hindsight was against Ranka, at least they actually look like peers now.

Yeah that's true, Ranka was very cute. But your right at the end of the day Alto didn't have to be pushed to protect Sheryl, he never had to be pushed to chase after her, he'd do that all on his own. I think that Mikhail may have realized that which is why he stops pushing Alto to spend time with Ranka. With Ranka he made a promise to protect her not to stay by her side, a promise that in hindsight wasn't motivated by any attraction Alto may or may not have had to her. With Sheryl he made a promise to stay by her side, and previously had broken a promise he made to himself just to see her. I remember the episode when Alto is arguing with Mikhail over Sheryl, whom Alto believes that Mikhail his best friend mind you maybe using to get to Grace. He was protective of Sheryl way back in episode 11 without needing to make promises. To me that spoke left a bigger impression.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

[magnuskn]

So, in light of that the movie thread is moving at hyperspeed and many things get buried there too fast to see true discussion, here's my topic I'd like to talk about:

Spoiler for Das SPOILERS for der movie Zwei!:

Does the SherylxAlto resolution of the movie affect how you view the outcome of the TV series in any shape or form?

For me, personally, it does not. I have long ago separated the two continuities from each other and things that happened in the movie did not happen in the series for me.

That being said, I have made quite the extensive argument already in the past that Sheryl x Alto is almost predetermined to happen after the credits roll in the series, for multitudes of reasons.

[choji]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, in light of that the movie thread is moving at hyperspeed and many things get buried there too fast to see true discussion, here's my topic I'd like to talk about:

Spoiler for Das SPOILERS for der movie Zwei!:

Does the SherylxAlto resolution of the movie affect how you view the outcome of the TV series in any shape or form?

For me, personally, it does not. I have long ago separated the two continuities from each other and things that happened in the movie did not happen in the series for me.

That being said, I have made quite the extensive argument already in the past that Sheryl x Alto is almost predetermined to happen after the credits roll in the series, for multitudes of reasons.

It doesn't either. I mean, I'd probably would have taken the

Spoiler for spoiler mama:

happy closure route If I had the chance, but still even if it is bittersweet, it is still a closure.

And I also have to agree about SxA being predetermined to happen, I mean holy shit, too much chemistry from the first stare to ignore.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, in light of that the movie thread is moving at hyperspeed and many things get buried there too fast to see true discussion, here's my topic I'd like to talk about:

Spoiler for Das SPOILERS for der movie Zwei!:

Does the SherylxAlto resolution of the movie affect how you view the outcome of the TV series in any shape or form?

For me, personally, it does not. I have long ago separated the two continuities from each other and things that happened in the movie did not happen in the series for me.

That being said, I have made quite the extensive argument already in the past that Sheryl x Alto is almost predetermined to happen after the credits roll in the series, for multitudes of reasons.

I doesn't affect me either, from watching the tv series the outcome was pretty much clear to me. The promotional material released didn't help matters.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by choji

It doesn't either. I mean, I'd probably would have taken the

Spoiler for spoiler mama:

happy closure route If I had the chance, but still even if it is bittersweet, it is still a closure.

Not so much for me, since I still want some real closure for the series.

Originally Posted by choji

And I also have to agree about SxA being predetermined to happen, I mean holy shit, too much chemistry from the first stare to ignore.

That's also true, although my argument was more in the vein of how things had progressed in the last nine episodes of the series and where the three mains were emotionally then and in the aspect of their maturity.

Alto: Grew up and accepted responsibility for Sheryl and his home
Sheryl: Grew up and accepted responsibility for bringing the citizens of Frontier hope, even at cost of singing herself literally to death.
Ranka: Still a kid who actually reversed her character growth from the midst of the series. Needs to saved all the time, does not even notice how much the other two have moved on in their relationship.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not so much for me, since I still want some real closure for the series.



That's also true, although my argument was more in the vein of how things had progressed in the last nine episodes of the series and where the three mains were emotionally then and in the aspect of their maturity.

Alto: Grew up and accepted responsibility for Sheryl and his home
Sheryl: Grew up and accepted responsibility for bringing the citizens of Frontier hope, even at cost of singing herself literally to death.
Ranka: Still a kid who actually reversed her character growth from the midst of the series. Needs to saved all the time, does not even notice how much the other two have moved on in their relationship.

pretty much this by the end of the series, Ranka really did end up being the little sister character to both Sheryl and Alto, who seemed more like adults when the series ended.

[choji]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not so much for me, since I still want some real closure for the series.

Haha, you know you don't always get what you want like epic Rolling Stones said once. But still, our ship got way too much captains this time around. It shall sail proud for a long time to come, don't you think? |D

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That's also true, although my argument was more in the vein of how things had progressed in the last nine episodes of the series and where the three mains were emotionally then and in the aspect of their maturity.

Alto: Grew up and accepted responsibility for Sheryl and his home
Sheryl: Grew up and accepted responsibility for bringing the citizens of Frontier hope, even at cost of singing herself literally to death.
Ranka: Still a kid who actually reversed her character growth from the midst of the series. Needs to saved all the time, does not even notice how much the other two have moved on in their relationship.

Oh, that is what you meant. Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is how you see -specially in fiction- how one impacts the other and how a relationship progresses; if said relationship stays stable with no alteration whatsoever, then there's not much point in there, is it? So yes, 'growing up'-concept is surely a huge milestone.

p.s I would also add, aimo some moar to your last remarks about the last character.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, in light of that the movie thread is moving at hyperspeed and many things get buried there too fast to see true discussion, here's my topic I'd like to talk about:

Spoiler for Das SPOILERS for der movie Zwei!:

Does the SherylxAlto resolution of the movie affect how you view the outcome of the TV series in any shape or form?

For me, personally, it does not. I have long ago separated the two continuities from each other and things that happened in the movie did not happen in the series for me.

That being said, I have made quite the extensive argument already in the past that Sheryl x Alto is almost predetermined to happen after the credits roll in the series, for multitudes of reasons.

It doesn't change anything for me, either. Although I like to think of the movie versions as showing facets of the characters that COULD exist in the TV "universe" but were never shown, I don't really find anyone substantially different in either iteration.

I find them much more different in some of the comics.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

It doesn't change anything for me, either. Although I like to think of the movie versions as showing facets of the characters that COULD exist in the TV "universe" but were never shown, I don't really find anyone substantially different in either iteration.

I find them much more different in some of the comics.

Well, in the comics we got Brera shooting laserbeams from his fingers. No wonder that the characters seem different.

But, yeah, the characters of the series and movie were more clearly modeled on each other than from other mediums ( although the light novels also seem to have kept the similarities ).

I still think that movie Alto fearing that he'd lose his personality in acting is not reflected very much in series Alto. It might have been an aspect of series Alto in his past, but in the series he very much is defining himself and seems much less unsure about his new chosen way of life.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, in the comics we got Brera shooting laserbeams from his fingers. No wonder that the characters seem different.

And Ranka is a Disney princess.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

And Ranka is a Disney princess.

Which comic is THAT?