(CR) Hibike! Euphonium Season 2

[BleedingUranium]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Heh, the problem is usually people just come to you to vent, and not really listen to you. And then there's the projection, "If you were me, you'd definitely do that! I'm right, you gotta be like that!" It's no surprise Kumiko starts to get into those -_- faces a lot.



And that's why Reina makes me cringe sometimes. But she's still adorable after she gets around back to her senses.

Kumiko has the best faces and noises.

Very adorable, I do love her. But not like that; I wouldn't date her.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by BleedingUranium

Kumiko has the best faces and noises.

Very adorable, I do love her. But not like that; I wouldn't date her.

Kumiko's definitely the heart of the show

Ah as for Reina, lol, well that's interesting indeed. And somehow I think I understand now.

[shanimebib]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Well, yeah they didn't need it to have all the blushes/etc (mostly why i avoid shoujo), but still they could have developed it more. I mean, i saw it as very prospective, due to the mountain scene. The sensual touching of her face was...well i've never seen that in anything BUT shoujo's, F/F or M/M manga's.

Like I said, "extremely close friends who were drawn to each other because of the differences in their personalities and the mysteriousness of their characters." and it was the very scene in the mountain that proved that they were drawn close to each other because of those two reasons. Kyoto Animation touched both of it in the build up to that scene. They showed the differences in them and the mystery that had drawn them together.

- Kumiko has a personality that draws people towards her (Hazuki, Midori, Natsuki, Asuka, Nozomi, Taki-sensei). In the contrast, Reina has a personality that pushes people further away from her as she is seen almost as a loner.

- Kumiko has a personality that wants to distant herself from those who are really close to her (Mamiko, Shuuichi). Reina has a personality that wants to bridge any distance between herself and those who are close to her (Taki-sensei, Kumiko).

- Kumiko wants to follow the mass (she attempts to wear her skirt up like the popular trend that highschooler should wear it shorter). Reina wants to stray from the mass (she wants to become someone 'special')

- Reina has a personality that makes her want to share things that are important (revealing that she is in love with Taki-sensei, trying to make Kumiko admit that she likes Shuuichi) to those who matter to her (i.e. Kumiko). Kumiko has a personality that makes her withheld things that are important (her admiration of her sister, her feelings for Shuuichi, her knowing about Taki-sensei's deceased wife) to those who matter to her (Mamiko, Shuuchi and Reina).

- Reina is confident, straightforward and intense. Kumiko lacks confidence, a bit twisted and has a laid back personality.

I am sure there are many more. These differences drew them closer because they find each other very fascinating. They are like the polar opposites of a magnet.

The sensual touch was them accepting their differences and forming of a contract known as friendship, which would become something eternal.

[Reckoner]

Somehow the entire worth of the series is being placed on Kumiko potentially getting hooked up with a side character in the series when the show largely has nothing to do with romance.

I'm not sure what's more pathetic, this mindset or the mere fact you fell for Kyoani's baiting tactics that were obvious to anyone paying damn attention.

[Marcus H.]

You forgot the fact that KyoAni even devised such a way to get the viewers watching.
Personally, that's even more pathetic, considering they don't even have to go all meta with their fanbase to actually get viewers.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by GMT

Even if one assumes that Kumiko isn't interested in Reina in that way, romance seems like it'd be antithetical to her life's philosophy. She prefers to watch from a safe distance and not risk getting hurt, or hurting others. A romantic relationship is the opposite of all that. Kumiko tries to "protect" her friend from pursuing a romantic relationship by withholding information about Taki's life from her. But when Reina makes it clear that romance, or something like it, is what she wants. Kumiko, again, has to stop protecting Reina from romance, but is really passive-aggressive about it. Later, she's even visibly irritated with Reina for sorts of questions that Reina was asking Taki; saying her questions were "stupid," and that they'd only get her hurt.

Well, I personally never saw their relationship as romantic, so I found Kumiko just as very passive, not aggressive, but yeah, passive, especially in this situation. But she ignored Reina the whole second season and even when Reina came back calling her out in the end all what Kumiko did was to be dragged around. She has never been proactive nor supportive in any ways, directly or indirectly. She even dismissed Reina's anger state to be very likely immature before knowing what the fuss was about. She was unaware of Reina turmoil. There has been a certain constant consistency from her part toward Reina that culminated with that remark I felt very cold. If not cold, detached. Detached from all the knowledge Kumiko had about all the persons involved. All of that kinda goes against any romantic standpoint in their regard if you ask me.

On a related note, back to that last line, her statement about Taki's wife, "being dead after all", came out quite cold and inconsiderate not just toward Reina, but even and especially toward Taki, someone who opened to her, someone who displayed his full love for her wife even now. And last in contrast with the society she lives in, that if I'm not wrong is very respectful toward the dead.

I found that line very contrasting in what then Reina did later. Visiting and praying at Taki's wife grave and then later playing to her was very sensible and mature, especially coming from Reina, because the first thing she had to do if she wanted to pursuit this path (Taki) was to address the elephant in the room, Taki's wife, and all the implications it may have raised within Reina herself if she hadn't. She couldn't go forward without this specific step and I appreciated the way she did it. Something I would have expected to come from Kumiko.
In the end the impression I had was that Reina's way of face the problem came from/got suggested by the coldness of Kumiko's statement, like Reina felt something was wrong about that way of thinking (or it's just me ).

But in the end, even reading the other posts, I think I felt that way toward Kumiko especially because I thought Asuka gave her the right push to destroy her own boundaries. So my expectations were to see a more active, supportive and direct Kumiko, a kumiko more close to the one with Asuka. But probably the point, that has been reaffirmed in these late posts by others, goes back to this:

Originally Posted by Arya

I think I already pointed this out, but given how Kumiko prioritized her outer circle, the way Shuuichi and Mamiko have been ignored so far put them together (but yeah, Shuuichi's cahracterization has been left to us to figure out).
Now, if we further Kumiko's behavior and link it with how Reina has been ignored this whole time we could also infer how she basically stepped from her outer circle to the inner one.
As like her inner circle is within those boundaries she set up, the one Asuka pushed her to break, causing a sort of paradox in her head, being them in a inner space supposed to be void

So in the end I agree with the idea of Kumiko still being afraid to go past her own boundaries toward the people she care. And possibility the more they are close the more she tend to avoid focusing and thinking about it. Because that would rise possible arguments, that could lead to conflicts, etc, etc.

So now I'm curious to see if the meeting with Shuuichi will show some more awareness in that regard.

[Romanticide]

Ah, so i'm pathetic. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel so much better about believing KyoAni might actually be trying to make something progressive for LGBT+ people there. But I guess after their Tamako Market + Movie, they really don't care. I wish i'd never even watched either of these anime's.

[AB079]

Ironically I was right about this and I'm glad more people realize what's going on.

With Hibike we don't need to entirely blame Kyoani for what's happening, a big part of the problem was the author itself and the Novels. I already mentioned this before with a quote of the Novels as example but I'll repeat this again, the books have yuri baiting. The problem is that Kyoani abused of those scenes turning Hibike in to something that wasn't intended to be, showing a fictional couple that was never in the Novels (Reina x Kumiko bait) and what is even more painful to know is how Kyoani ruined some characters by doing that (Suichi as one of the prime examples).

Obviously the adaptation has some great points like the music and visuals but that won't change the fact that Kyoani missed the point long time ago. I'm glad they executed Taki's situation in a very good way, same as Asuka's problems which are in part the best things coming out of this season along with Kumiko growing up a little bit.

That being said, the main problem present here and other places are the people who praise Kyoani and Hibike over and over trying to hide the obvious baiting and flaws just because they love the show. What people needs is what happened in these last 2-3 pages, having those ones that addressed those flaws and showed them in a very good way.

Hopefully Kyoani stop ruining things and comeback with Violet Evergarden (which by the way is good).

[Marina2]

Please allow me to interrupt the flow of discussion.

Do you guys remember OVA that comes first BD? Well, it's about....

Spoiler:

At festival, Yuuko and Natsuki planned to make Riko kisses Goto. They tried to find where was Goto. However, Natsuki and Yuuko saw Goto with other woman and misunderstood that he cheated on his girlfriend ,so they rushed to beat him up. (That woman is actually his sister LOL). OVA end here.


Some images from OVA
http://imgur.com/Vnd6OPD.jpg
http://imgur.com/yHLqpoL.jpg
http://imgur.com/22CFLBT.jpg
http://imgur.com/h8MeRHo.jpg

[shanimebib]

/start of rant

Some of the comments in KyoAni's official youtube channel is/was so atrocious that I am really ashamed as an anime fan.

Calling Japanese people names, dissing their taste and what not by just seeing a PV of an anime. This is their work. They have every right to do whatever they want with it. If you don't like it, just go and stick your d!ck in between the brokeback mountain for all I care.

Funny how non-japanese people claim that 60% of the viewers of Hibike! Euphnoium are from the LGBT community. It's actually not even funny, because the PV got the most likes (and dislikes, 10% at it) in all of the PVs that were posted under Hibike! Euphonium since the start of the season.

Most of the comments from Japanese people are positive in the channel. It's mainly the non-japanese people who are making a fuss about it. One user actually commented just now that they are glad that they are Japanese.

Pathetic yuri fans. Well, sorry for generalizing, I am sure most of them are actually nice, it's just the few aggressive ones that make the whole group of them look like pathetic low lives. And they think it's wrong to think of them cancerous.

/end of rant.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

See, in a traditional Yuri story, you would have two girls who love each other, but one of them would be stuck betrothed to some horrible guy who want to tear them apart.

The fans of yuri tend to be used to hated men as enemies because of his gender, because of conditioning. Because all too often the guy in the way is deliberately portrayed as an asshole to be hated.

Humans are not as smart as we like to think. It is very easy to be trained like a dog, to behave on reflex to do something over and over again when given stimulus. At least some of these anti-Shoe posters are just not using their brains and act like animals in a pack.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by AB079

With Hibike we don't need to entirely blame Kyoani for what's happening, a big part of the problem was the author itself and the Novels. I already mentioned this before with a quote of the Novels as example but I'll repeat this again, the books have yuri baiting. The problem is that Kyoani abused of those scenes turning Hibike in to something that wasn't intended to be, showing a fictional couple that was never in the Novels (Reina x Kumiko bait) and what is even more painful to know is how Kyoani ruined some characters by doing that (Suichi as one of the prime examples).

I would say the biggest problem with this show is that they've decided to adapt three novels in fourteen thirteen episodes. They could've pulled it off a little better if the Nozomi/Mizore thing were wrapped up by episode two or three (it's really something that, I think, could've used its own show; with Kumiko as a minor side character who always lurks in the wings, like her pal Shuuichi,) with most of the season being given over to the Asuka family drama and the Reina/Taki things. Also, because viewers are oblivious, they maybe could've made the Shuuichi developments slightly more obvious.

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Ah, so i'm pathetic. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel so much better about believing KyoAni might actually be trying to make something progressive for LGBT+ people there. But I guess after their Tamako Market + Movie, they really don't care. I wish i'd never even watched either of these anime's.

As has been said, the Kumiko/Reina ship sank before the end of series one. Also, Tamako Market / Love Story is a somewhat poor example of KyoAni not having a progressive outlook. The LGBT issue there was handled respectfully and with a great deal of sympathy.

Also, I would argue that Sound! Euphonium is remarkably progressive, considering where it comes from. It's always allowed people to draw their own conclusions, regarding Kumiko's sexuality (just as it did about Nozomi, Mizore and Yuuko.) It doesn't pass judgement, nor does it advocate for one position over the other. Kumiko's relationships rise and fall solely on the evolution of her character.

Kumiko's relationship with Reina ultimately goes nowhere not because Kumiko is bi, or fancies a bit of lesbianism here and there; but because she's a legitimately frustrating person to get along with who never really offers a credible alternative to Taki. She's open and blunt to people she hardly knows, she's closed-off to people that she's close to, she's too afraid of getting hurt, and she's too afraid of the possibility of hurting others. And it's equal-opportunity frustration ... being bad for both Shuuichi and Reina.

tl;dr - Kumiko's a terrible flag-carrier for anything beyond playing the euphonium.

[Bordix]

Originally Posted by GMT

tl;dr - Kumiko's a terrible flag-carrier for anything beyond playing the euphonium.

And as the OP suggests and rather spoils. Kumiko X Euphonium is the final conclusion

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by BleedingUranium

As an extension of my previous post, Kumiko's parallels with Asuka are fairly obvious (I hope), but I think her just-as-significant parallels with Nozomi are even more relevant. Making Reina, and everyone else to some degree, Mizore.

I had once said I found Nozomi rather relatable (a reason I like her), but (as I'd sort of known all along) I also find Asuka and Kumiko relatable as well. Maybe that's part of why I like the show so much, and why all of their interactions make sense to me.


Indeed. Reina was this elusive, amazing, mysterious person Kumiko was drawn to (and similar in reverse), and as of Episode 8 that culminated in a very... unhealthy relationship. One where Kumiko is basically worshipping Reina (to partially steal the phrasing of someone on that linked MAL thread).

Then somewhere right around here Kumiko figures Reina out. She now understands her, and Reina is no longer mysterious and amazing, but is simply her very unique and quirky close friend. We can further see this shift in the relationship to a more healthy/balanced form after Kumiko chats with Taki and gets her phone back. Specifically when Kumiko is going on about how she's rediscovered her love for euphonium, while completely talking over and ignoring Reina's insistence on telling her about hanging out with Taki. That's the moment we see Reina is no longer the super special snowflake that Kumiko worships.

From then on (which is 90% S2 because there wasn't much S1 after this point), Reina is just Reina, and subject to the same standard Kumiko treatment as all of her other friends. Hazuki and Sapphire not having all that much focus or screentime is very deliberate as I see it, because it just further feeds into how Kumiko's social network operated. The difference between them and Reina is the latter is not as okay with this shift. Again, rather like Nozomi, Mizore, Natsuki, and Yuuko, broadly speaking.

I swear I had more to add to this but I'm blanking on what it was. >.>

Sounds like you're describing it backwards. Reina is the Nozomi, and Kumiko the Mizore. Except that Reina succeeded where Nozomi failed (ie: Reina's push for excellence over seniority), and Kumiko managed to see Reina as a person instead of an idol, and so didn't become trapped in forever following her.

Kumiko may be the person that people are drawn to, like Nozomi, but Reina is the one that would stand on her principals the way Nozomi did, while Kumiko would just sink into the background if she could.

Edit: I'll grant there's a certain, "She doesn't need me anymore" element to Kumiko's character this season, with respect to Reina, which reflects more on a Kumiko:Nozomi and Reina:Mizore parallel.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Ah, so i'm pathetic. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel so much better about believing KyoAni might actually be trying to make something progressive for LGBT+ people there. But I guess after their Tamako Market + Movie, they really don't care. I wish i'd never even watched either of these anime's.

I really don't think it has to meet such an extreme. Just because something has gone wrong doesn't mean there's a lot of great stuff that's gone right. I enjoyed watching some of the character relationships and really don't mind where it goes because I care about the quality of the relationship. And yes, I don't expect Kyoani or anime in general to really handle this matter well. I mean, again, romance isn't the important factor in the show, never was, never will be. It's incredibly juvenile compared to any legit romance anime, but that's fine. It's like wondering why an office work machine doesn't have good graphics card. Hibike was using integrated romance, okay?

That being said, I think that it's also pretty classless of people to lump in LBGT supporters with those that just prefer yuri as a heterocentric fantasy. And that if you think has been a thing, I think it's okay to be a bit annoyed because people have been doing that. And I think it goes both ways, a lot of yuri shippers have been very annoying, but the people that don't like them are also pretty annoying too. And I hate most of everyone, so that should balance everything out I think. I should really stop posting on this topic.

And look, unlike some people, I also understand that the yuri fanbase in general tends to get very hurt when their hopes get dashed, because in reality there is just so little of it that is quality at all. So when any functional relationship seems better looking than canon relationships in other anime, it's not hard to get a bit annoyed. What one should be upset about is the general low quality of characterization in other anime. But at the same time, I don't view people with the same contempt or condescension, because I'm not a jackass.... sometimes. I'm definitely not a fan of so called bait.

[BleedingUranium]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Please allow me to interrupt the flow of discussion.

Do you guys remember OVA that comes first BD? Well, it's about....

Spoiler:

At festival, Yuuko and Natsuki planned to make Riko kisses Goto. They tried to find where was Goto. However, Natsuki and Yuuko saw Goto with other woman and misunderstood that he cheated on his girlfriend ,so they rushed to beat him up. (That woman is actually his sister LOL). OVA end here.


Some images from OVA
http://imgur.com/Vnd6OPD.jpg
http://imgur.com/yHLqpoL.jpg
http://imgur.com/22CFLBT.jpg
http://imgur.com/h8MeRHo.jpg

Hahahaha that's adorable and I love it.

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Sounds like you're describing it backwards. Reina is the Nozomi, and Kumiko the Mizore. Except that Reina succeeded where Nozomi failed (ie: Reina's push for excellence over seniority), and Kumiko managed to see Reina as a person instead of an idol, and so didn't become trapped in forever following her.

Kumiko may be the person that people are drawn to, like Nozomi, but Reina is the one that would stand on her principals the way Nozomi did, while Kumiko would just sink into the background if she could.

Edit: I'll grant there's a certain, "She doesn't need me anymore" element to Kumiko's character this season, with respect to Reina, which reflects more on a Kumiko:Nozomi and Reina:Mizore parallel.

Indeed, it depends in which ways you're comparing them; both ways make sense depending on perspective.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Romanticide

Ah, so i'm pathetic. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel so much better about believing KyoAni might actually be trying to make something progressive for LGBT+ people there. But I guess after their Tamako Market + Movie, they really don't care. I wish i'd never even watched either of these anime's.

I think it's been abundantly clear all along that it was mere titillation. When you make a lesbian relationship from the male gaze, it's also not exactly the most progressive thing there anyways. You are naive if you thought otherwise, just like many are naive about all the yaoi bait but not yaoi shows out there.

Go watch a movie like Carol if you want something progressive minded.

[BleedingUranium]

Or maybe people should stop complaining about the story not being something it was never intended to be.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think it's been abundantly clear all along that it was mere titillation. When you make a lesbian relationship from the male gaze, it's also not exactly the most progressive thing there anyways.

But it wasn't made with the male gaze. It's just that virtually no one in the West understands what the (young) Japanese female pov looks like. And neither did the senior male staff at KyoAni. That's why they got Yamada to do this show.

[Marcus H.]

Or maybe people should stop complaining about the story not being something it was never intended to be.

Which brings us back to the main topic: Which was the intended story--the one imposed by the production staff of KyoAni, OR the original story that the anime series was based on?

It would be tough to determine the answer to this unless we find out the level of relevance the Kumiko-Shuuichi moment in the entirety of the upcoming episode. After all, it could just be a little thing and the "vocal fans" are exaggerating.