2010-03-25, 00:59 | Link #7021 | |
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-25 at 01:11. |
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2010-03-25, 01:00 | Link #7022 | |
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so huh Spoiler for ???? Tea party:
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2010-03-25, 01:12 | Link #7023 | |
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@Ssol: I think that's one of the reasons these aren't called answer arcs. The specific personality Featherinne cannot be essential to solving the question arcs, so she's there to help move the story forward into new territory, probably like Erika. Personally, I'd rather check out some new territory than just have the answers to the question arcs hinted at over and over again (though he does that too).
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2010-03-25, 01:21 | Link #7024 | |
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2010-03-25, 01:26 | Link #7025 | |
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Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! What I am presenting to you is a hypothetical situation. Let's just say a red popped up that said: At least one person had suspicions of X's disguise This is the kind of situation I want you to find hints for. As for mysteries not needing this kind of rule even though Higurashi wasn't a bonified mystery it still had two people suspecting that Mion was able to disguise as Shion. Those people are Keiichi and Rena so there was foreshadowing for that to work. Even if it's a small piece of white text I want you to look back and find at least one sentence where someone is suspicous of the person in disguise acting strangely. Not necessarily being in disguise, but at least a clue for them acting out of character. I beleive a human person must have these kind of limitations for it to work.
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2010-03-25, 01:27 | Link #7026 |
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For the author theory to even really make any sense, the author would have to be someone with some degree of story relevance; therefore, if Hachijo Touya isn't an alias for someone who exists in 1-4, I can't really see why the overarching story would focus on her opinion of pretty much anything. Which isn't to say it might not be insightful, but it wouldn't be "what it's about," which would pretty much make the author theory moot (except perhaps as secondary commentary on the nature of writing itself).
EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying she ISN'T exactly such a person. I don't actually know. Ssol's theory would make her a person mentioned and relevant but not actually present. Authorial Shkanon would make it somebody else. Surprise Battler Option would also work, I suppose. |
2010-03-25, 01:38 | Link #7027 |
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I'll add one more hypothetical gold for Nanjo granddaughter theory same requirements as ^
Nanjo Onee san, your disguise was almost perfect! But with the slip of the tongue you let that person know about your disguise!
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2010-03-25, 01:43 | Link #7028 |
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@Judoh:
Sorry, but I'm not sure why you're asking for something so specific. Surely there are other ways to satisfy Knox's 8th instead of "they seen were acting oddly". If Sayo was Shannon and Kanon since the beginning, then she would have had years of practice acting the parts of both (and, in fact, creating those parts over time as she got used to them). Here's one hint though: remember in EP4, when Shannon and Kanon are talking after being locked in the dungeon? They mention that it was rare for them both to survive that long into the story. And it's true: the only time both of them are alive after the first twilight is EP2, and Kanon "died" in the second twilight almost immediately after the first. Plus, look at what happened in EP4. Shannon and Kanon didn't die in the first twilight, but they were never seen by Battler again after that point (alive), only heard from. So this pattern holds for all 4 question arcs and is even commented on inside the story. Also, as I've mentioned, there are several scenes when Kanon and Shannon are together and the game says "Kanon was so quiet, it was like he wasn't even there". That's a similar description to we get for Beatrice when Shannon sees her taunting Natsuhi.
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2010-03-25, 01:46 | Link #7029 | |
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That could explain why she is not saying anything about it. The adults might be focused on their plan to corner Krauss and not notice Shkanon. It's just very difficult to construct the theory because of this.
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2010-03-25, 01:57 | Link #7030 |
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The only significant hint I can really come up with is that Natsuhi's personality changes after the eagle-in-your-heart scene. She is much more resolute and aggressive, and even a bit paranoid. But you could explain that with her imaginary Kinzo alone, couldn't you?
So long as Krauss is still alive, it doesn't appear Natsuhi is manipulated enough to visibly change her personality. But when Krauss isn't alive, there are other explanations that don't require someone manipulating her. Remember though: We can't even be sure Lambda didn't just throw that part in to spice things up and confuse everyone. |
2010-03-25, 02:01 | Link #7031 | |
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You don't have to find the hints right away. But I think you should at least think on it and come back after you have.
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2010-03-25, 02:12 | Link #7032 |
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@Judoh:
And you don't think any of the things I suggested count as hints? Remember, we aren't talking about a hint that character A dressed up as character B. We're saying that character X is dressing up as both A and B. If that's the case, then character X would want to kill off A or B as soon as possible, and that's what happens with Shannon and Kanon. If that's the case, then when character A and B are together, there must be a falsehood at work. In multiple scenes, you have the "infinitely silent Kanon" hinting that there is a falsehood. Also, and this goes a bit into the second rule of magic, we have proof that someone on this island knew a meditation technique for creating complex fictional characters in her mind, something similar to what actors often do when going on stage (you can't just act the part, you have to be the part). This person was the Beatrice who taught Maria magic, and from the beginning of EP2, we have evidence that Shannon not only knew about the same "furniture" that Ange imagined floating around her, Shannon even imagined the character Beatrice was floating around her. This strongly hints that Shannon is Maria's Beatrice, which suggests that the meditation technique was known of and used by Shannon too. Since Shannon calls herself furniture and we already know that "furniture" is the word used to refer to these fictional characters, it's reasonable to assume that "Shannon" is a fictional character. Now, what I've said here isn't absolute proof, but it is a solvable puzzle. If you try to apply it to the rest of the game, you'll find that it helps you in several completely unrelated places.
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2010-03-25, 02:19 | Link #7033 |
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Those hints are trivial. I will only accept hints that satisfy my previous requirements as mystery buff. Any and all things suggesting a disguise or imaginary friends are unnecessary. By my requirements you must show hints that it is possible for at least one person to expose the disguise to the detective to solve the mystery in future games or your theory doesn't work! As I've shown: ALL mysteries must be solvable for humans on the game board!
We can't just keep having the lie go unexposed for all eternity. There must be a proper ending to the story.
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2010-03-25, 02:29 | Link #7034 | |
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As I've said before, it's been made very clear since before the game was released that Umineko is not a standard mystery. If you go into it assuming that anything not mystery is unfair, then you've chosen the wrong series.
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2010-03-25, 02:32 | Link #7035 | |
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One last thing about the Author theory again...
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That was when I was came up with the theory that Voyagers are like readers and Creators are like writers, like Maria (and her diary.) So it's clear who Featherine is... now that she's making Bernkastel write the next story. She's an editor! *gasp* |
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2010-03-25, 02:34 | Link #7036 | |
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Ryukishi wrote Umineko and Higurashi for BT as mystery games. That was what attracted people to these stories because what the fans theorized on message boards could affect how the story would be written next. If the simple existence of Knox's rules in red don't confirm for you that this is a mystery game than I have nothing more to say to you.
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2010-03-25, 02:38 | Link #7037 |
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Ryukishi claims the mystery (I assume the overall thing) was solvable as of ep4. Assume that's true.
So when ep5 comes out, that leaves four possible states for ep5:
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2010-03-25, 02:42 | Link #7038 | ||
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It was Erika and Bern that represented the mystery side in EP5, and if I remember correctly, they were the villains. Also, your red text is clearly false, but beyond that, there's more in the world than just mysteries and fantasies. I have never suggested that the events on each game board are in any way physically impossible. Ryuukishi clearly told us "without love, it cannot be seen", meaning that as long as you trust the author, there will be a way to find the solution. His reason for saying this was because this genre Umineko is part of is completely new. If you decide to trust Ryuukishi, he guarantees that it's solvable. If you don't, then good luck. Quote:
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2010-03-25, 02:47 | Link #7039 |
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I count "solving an episode" as who, what, where, when, and a reasonable approximation of why. All of these are possible as of ep1, though guessing why one is taking a vague stab in the dark without future episodes. However, it is possible to guess, and not even all that remote a chance, what led up to it. At least as possible as it is to guess motive in any mystery novel.
"Solving the mystery" is understanding things more deeply, requiring an aggregate view. The mystery was unsolvable at the time of ep1 anyway, if we go on the asserted claim that the mystery was solvable as of 4 (this implies it was not solvable previously, ergo it was not solvable when ep1 was the only episode). However, ep1 itself was solvable from the moment it was released. Ergo, at least one episode is solvable on its own. |
2010-03-25, 02:51 | Link #7040 | |
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Really, it's not nearly as hard as it might be made out to be. Ep1 certainly isn't, anyway. Ep4, sure, good luck on that one without backstory info. But ep1 and to a lesser extent ep3? Yes, they're solvable, and it may even be possible to nail motive to a reasonable approximation of the truth. Obviously if your standards are set so high that only an exact answer is sufficient, no one will get it, but if your standards are that high then ep1 wasn't solvable when it was released. I disagree strongly. Or perhaps you should elaborate. |
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