Hyouka - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[rulfo]

I dunno where people get the notion that Satoshi is gay or what.. Nowhere did we get a hint of that. In fact he does love Mayaka. Though saying he's a bi is very abstract and far fetched.

The issue is very simple right from that the start and Satoshi's speech just made it more concrete. He basically hates to lose. Back then he tries his hardest to do things in the goal of being better with someone. IMO too much of that is a very toxic thing. He's setting standards too high which will disappoint him in the end. His personality of being a sore loser will add more to devastation. My guess is that he has a lot of pride. I think a better episode to look back of this is the talk about the seven deadly sins.

Originally Posted by orion

This jerk isn't depressed. He's basically avoiding being hurt and disappointed.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx8.htm

If that's the case and Satoshi had that then I think he might have tried to change himself when he entered this school. He seems to be full of vigor up until the he was overwhelmed by the realization that he can't beat Houtarou.

Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing

I can't say for certain that he's an adventurous to know more where his capabilities lie but he joined a lot of clubs didn't he? Judging from what I read I kinda don't think he fits in that part but rather Houtarou back then is a more likely match.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by rulfo

If that's the case and Satoshi had that then I think he might have tried to change himself when he entered this school. He seems to be full of vigor up until the he was overwhelmed by the realization that he can't beat Houtarou.

One can easily pick up a book on mental disorders and in half an hour have oneself diagnosed to the point of going straight to the psychiatric ward.

[rulfo]

Well in anycase, what I got from Satoshi(Mayaka's case) is that he's a coward. That doesn't mean that he doesn't consider Mayaka special. To other's it'll seem that you're a jerk, but in his point of view he just considers Mayaka too special for him. He fears to completely destroy relationship if ever he went and pursued her.

Kinda like a non-pro perfectionist artist who's afraid of using pen and ink for the first time.

Of course he still needed to give an answer and that was a given. I think, even though Houtarou never got caught up with this, Satoshi would still give an answer.

[orion]

Originally Posted by rulfo

If that's the case and Satoshi had that then I think he might have tried to change himself when he entered this school. He seems to be full of vigor up until the he was overwhelmed by the realization that he can't beat Houtarou.

I can't say for certain that he's an adventurous to know more where his capabilities lie but he joined a lot of clubs didn't he? Judging from what I read I kinda don't think he fits in that part but rather Houtarou back then is a more likely match.

That was the safe zone. He did things that people will like him for. student council, cooking club. He joined a contest because his database skills would make it easy and he got to be cheered on by the school. He's a confident cook so he joined the cooking contest.

Originally Posted by Psych Central

Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked

But he didn't go all out in the game because he didn't want to be defeated so he played it safe until the end when his old self kicked in and he lost. It's more like Satoshi is devolving into an avoidance disorder while Oreki is getting rid of his avoidance disorder. You can say he was okay in high school but he prob was starting with the first lame excuse for not accepting the chocolate in middle school.

He's not 18 yo yet, so we have a few years before he gets that label permanently.

[king12354]

The reason for Fukube doing that seems too complicated to be true (do 1st year high schoolers feel that way ever?) . If I were Oreki, I would just presume that he doesn't like Mayaka.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by rulfo

I dunno where people get the notion that Satoshi is gay or what

Some people (at least on these forums) had a theory early on during the shows first arc that Satoshi was a homosexual which, while not entirely plausible, was likable enough since it would be make for an interesting addition to the cast. As the show went on, the theory became less likely (and Satoshi became more interesting for entirely different reasons) but it was still a pretty well liked idea. I personally would like it if it was the case, but I could tell that is not to be, since after this episode and the mini-arc he had during the festival shows that the narrative is taking him to a different sort of conclusion.

On this episode ... honestly, I find myself left speechless thanks to this show. Even now, with a single episode left, it manages to throw some pretty damn hard punches at me and yank my heart strings so violently in ways I didn't think would affect me.

I never imagined that Eru would ever reach this point where she would be so furious that she would not only burst out, but cry and be look so depressed. It's amazing, since I never thought I had grow so attached to her character and taken her to be just a genki, nice girl bubble head who was always merry and carefree ... only to be reminded of the scene back in episode 3 where the lost little girl who was searching for something important in the sand without any clue of what to do ... I honestly thought what he did to Mayaka was pretty damn low, but seeing Eru break down made me want to punch Satoshi in the face. Thankfully Houtarou did something to at least sooth my anger at what he did, so at least it managed to end on a somewhat optimistic note.

Speaking of, Houtarou manages to show another side of him, even this late into the show. It does look like seeing Eru so distressed had affected him deep down as well, and I thought he might have seriously punched Satoshi (I actually thought he Chitanda was going to slap him when he graped her hand, only to be surprised by her tears). Boy, for some reason I kept on thinking that things were about to get physical throughout the episode from how intense it all was.

I'm going to miss this show a lot

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Chitanda isn't just a nice naive girl--we now know what makes her angry--and somewhat surprisingly, she's something of a hothead when provoked. It's probably fortunate Houtarou prevented her from doing something drastic with bad consequences, especially considering how she needs to hold up her family's reputation.

Also, even *after* she found out the truth, she knew it'd be best to play along--in a way, she ended up outsmarting Houtarou, who had made up the fib to calm her down in the first place. And while lying in a relationship is obviously never the preferred solution, it's clear she understands why Houtarou did what he did, and appreciates his good intentions. I also like how we saw Houtarou get downright angry at Satoshi, because of how he affected Chitanda. I don't know if we've ever seen him so protective of her before.

Well, I think that we had already known that she was smarter than she acted in school, but the thing is as you pointed out with her outsmarting Houtarou is that she also grew as a person from not only seeing how Houtarou acts but also from the tricks she picked up during the festival and how she could make things fall into her advantage.

About her being hotheaded, I think it's just due to the situation that was in front of her and how it had hurt a friend of hers badly, so she wasn't thinking all that clearly at the moment ... even the most serene and forgiving of personalities can get furious at times when injustice is in front of them and is allowed to pass by, so I took it as being a moment of intense frustration that isn't normally part of her, due to her not being able to do anything. Thankfully he stopped her and managed to work things out by the end.

Originally Posted by Pen3

If she gets together with Oreki, i bet it would be simple for him to cheap on her with other girls lol.

No it would not. You forget that Chitanda has the smelling senses of a hunting dog and the eyes of a hawk, so she'd manage to pick up on anything strange on Houtarou, so he'd never be able to hid it.

Besides, it's unlike him to do something of that sort. Too much energy ...

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Speaking of, Houtarou manages to show another side of him, even this late into the show. It does look like seeing Eru so distressed had affected him deep down as well, and I thought he might have seriously punched Satoshi (I actually thought he Chitanda was going to slap him when he graped her hand, only to be surprised by her tears). Boy, for some reason I kept on thinking that things were about to get physical throughout the episode from how intense it all was.

I'm going to miss this show a lot

I agree that we're getting a lot of unexpected and welcome characterization of Houtarou this late in the story. While Satoshi is a self-admitted egotist underneath that happy-go-lucky exterior, Houtarou tells Chitanda flat-out he can't really understand how she feels when she's at her most emotional, and it reminded me of other times where he avoids any claims as to understanding other people's motivations (including hers). BUT he acts in a way perfectly calibrated to calm her down, including just enough physical restraint. And you can tell he feels terrible about lying to her, and he even bothers to fulfill the literal terms of the promise to get the chocolate to Satoshi--a completely unnecessary use of energy from a practical standpoint. If they aren't a perfectly complementary couple, I don't know what it is.

I'm also going to miss this show a lot. I expected a fun Valentine's Day ep. with more awkward silences between Houtarou and Chitanda, but this ended up being a far more impressive a story, while still keeping those awkward silences. Chitanda getting inches away from making a confession was just priceless.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

On this episode ... honestly, I find myself left speechless thanks to this show. Even now, with a single episode left, it manages to throw some pretty damn hard punches at me and yank my heart strings so violently in ways I didn't think would affect me.

Speaking of, Houtarou manages to show another side of him, even this late into the show. It does look like seeing Eru so distressed had affected him deep down as well, and I thought he might have seriously punched Satoshi (I actually thought he Chitanda was going to slap him when he graped her hand, only to be surprised by her tears). Boy, for some reason I kept on thinking that things were about to get physical throughout the episode from how intense it all was.

I'm going to miss this show a lot

I think Hyouka subverts the anime model in an interesting way by having the girls be mostly the ones who drive the plot, and the boys the ones with the more well-developed character arcs and complicated issues. It's always been most obvious to me with Satoshi, but Houtarou has had a tremendous amount of development, though it's quite gradual and subtle.

This is a series that can make other anime look really amateurish by comparison when it goes all-out. Fantastic episode. I think people should look beyond simply hating on Satoshi for hurting Mayaka's feelings and Houtarou for hiding the facts, and dig into the deeper psychological issues involved. Hyouka is a very unconventional anime, and it needs to be analyzed with the same nuance that goes into its writing.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by king12354

The reason for Fukube doing that seems too complicated to be true (do 1st year high schoolers feel that way ever?) . If I were Oreki, I would just presume that he doesn't like Mayaka.

I feel like high school is just the right time for all of these self-understanding issues to appear. At least in anime, it's at the time where relationships are starting to appear, and in Satoshi's case, his current predicament is due to him trying to "mature" from his middle school self anyway.

I don't think my high school life was so serious in retrospect, but I do remember exaggerating my personality and being somewhat overemotional at times . In typical anime fashion, though, the characters are given traits of slightly more mature people (that is, their ability to be introspective and to articulate better), and I don't think that's a bad thing.

[whitecloud]

if you are satoshi's buddy would you give him any advice? if there what advice...?

if it was me... id say ...MAN UP.. everyone got their own problem here...face it..youre still lucky enough you got someone that want to be at your side...

[hilly]

I think I may understand why Satoshi acted like that.There are times when you feel it is tiring to be competitive and obsesses about everything.So,we would just let go of everything and go by the flow,not angry or sad about something.Then we could stay in a boring but comfortable bubble of ourselves.

At the Kamiyama festival,that aggressive side of Satoshi is flowing out again,but only let him feel more depressed again.If he keeps this up,the anger and jealousy toward Houtarou(and other people?)will keep building and affected their friendship,so he had to let the aggressive side go.

Toward Mayaka 's feeling,he would need to deal with many problem regarding love,like many drama and show had been showing us(jealousy,distrust,etc..).In my opinion,he is trying to avoid energy consuming,which currently opposite of the road houtarou is walking now.

Well,if Mayaka would act like Houtarou 's imagination-lock him up,tell him how difficult to make a chocolate from cocoa,and stuck the choco into his mouth!That maybe strong enough medicine to make Satoshi changeXD

[Mubyoshi]

This anime is oh so good. Wish it was longer, I'm gonna miss this one.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

if you are satoshi's buddy would you give him any advice? if there what advice...?

if it was me... id say ...MAN UP.. everyone got their own problem here...face it..youre still lucky enough you got someone that want to be at your side...

Some serious loltastic advise there, I'm sure you'd help a lot of people.

[GMT]

In this episode of Hyouka . . . well, Chuck Norris gives Batman cooking chocolate for Valentine's Day.

With that aside, this episode, like the last one, is a character piece. The previous episode, and this one, both continue to show Chitanda as something other than otaku moebait. She throws herself into helping Mayaka craft a chocolate for Satoshi. She rages when it's stolen and were it not for the intervention of Batman Oreki, she would've seen those responsible crushed and broken before her, so help her God. It also shows that Oreki has some steel to him, especially when he feels that someone (mostly Chitanda, but Mayaka gets some too,) has been wronged. As for Mayaka ... well, we see just how much it sucks to be Mayaka. I mean, damn, there's a girl who could use a hug.

The focus of this episode is Satoshi. Sure, some might say that this is an episode about Satoshi x Mayaka; and to some extent, that's true . . . but neither Mayaka's character, nor her relationship with Satoshi get any significant development this episode. Yes, there's lots of backfill, but no real progress gets made.

We see him and Batman Oreki play a giant fighting robot game together. Oreki reflects that Satoshi was one of those "RAWR! CRUSH! KILL! DESTROY!" hyper-competitive sorts, back in the day. Only now, he compliments Oreki on his victory. (As an aside, his change in personality improves his performance. When he was in middle school, he gloated over what is a really pathetic victory. When he lost, it was a one-sided ass-kicking. Contrast that to the present, where he still loses, but it was a hard-fought affair on both sides.)

The whole Valentine's Day chocolate theft thing is, in the overall scheme of things, a distraction. Both Mayaka and Oreki knew who stole the chocolates the instant they found out they were stolen. The only one who didn't know was Chitanda, and most of the theft sideplot is Batman Oreki keeping Chitanda from getting medieval on the supposed chocolate thieves. He convinces her that he knows who it is, and he has a plan to deal with them ... but since he is Batman, it'd be best if Chitanda went home and left it to him.

When Oreki confronts Satoshi over the stolen chocolates, revealing that Satoshi was, in fact, the thief: Satoshi reveals the reason behind a great many things we've seen since the start of the series; like his remark about being a shocking pink at the start of the series, the nature of his and Mayaka's relationship, and even his grappling with how he and Oreki compare. He confirms that he used to be a hyper-competitive person ... but came to realize that doing so took all the fun out of it. Crushing his opponents, seeing them driven before him, and hearing the lamentations of their women was boring.

So he stopped trying. He decided that life is great if you just don't give a <GITAH CHORD> to anything beyond fun. This puts his reactions during the Cultural Festival into context. His jealousy of Oreki's deductive skills, and his desire to top him weren't a result of always being "the database" of the Classic's Club ... it was a relapse to the follies of his youth. And relapsing is something he's terrified of.

Which explains his and Mayaka's relationship. Why Mayaka seems to feel so strongly for him, but he keeps making light of her feelings. It's not because he doesn't like her, nay, he describes her in terms like "a dream come true." He's afraid that if he and Mayaka were to get together, somehow that ultra-competitive beast within him would come back. And, given just how close to the surface that aspect of him really is, he believes his fears are well-founded. Which was why he couldn't accept the chocolate, and tried to think up a scenario where he wouldn't have to accept the chocolate, yet spare Mayaka's feelings.

So, here stands Satoshi, a man conflicted. On one hand, he became a much better person for ditching the hyper-competitiveness, and becoming so easy-going. On the other hand, he's deeply insecure, and the cheerful veneer he paints over his inner demon is a very thin one indeed. It's not a bright veneer either. He showed he was perfectly willing to disregard Chitanda's and Mayaka's feelings just to preserve the "new and improved" Satoshi.

9/10

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think people should look beyond simply hating on Satoshi for hurting Mayaka's feelings and Houtarou for hiding the facts, and dig into the deeper psychological issues involved.

Houtarou hiding the facts from Chitanda is an interesting thing to consider. In a way, he's just "keeping it in the family." After all, he was there the last time Satoshi rejected Mayaka's chocolate. Chitanda's the relative newcomer to their social circle. Satoshi even remarks that both he and Mayaka didn't take Chitanda's feelings into account when they ended up dragging her into the middle of their ongoing relationship troubles. What Oreki did was an attempt to get Chitanda out of that situation, and do so in a way that would preserve the peace.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by hilly

At the Kamiyama festival,that aggressive side of Satoshi is flowing out again,but only let him feel more depressed again.

Originally Posted by GMT

This puts his reactions during the Cultural Festival into context. His jealousy of Oreki's deductive skills, and his desire to top him weren't a result of always being "the database" of the Classic's Club ... it was a relapse to the follies of his youth. And relapsing is something he's terrified of.

I forgot about that. That's a really good connection.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by orion

That was the safe zone. He did things that people will like him for. student council, cooking club. He joined a contest because his database skills would make it easy and he got to be cheered on by the school. He's a confident cook so he joined the cooking contest.



But he didn't go all out in the game because he didn't want to be defeated so he played it safe until the end when his old self kicked in and he lost. It's more like Satoshi is devolving into an avoidance disorder while Oreki is getting rid of his avoidance disorder. You can say he was okay in high school but he prob was starting with the first lame excuse for not accepting the chocolate in middle school.

He's not 18 yo yet, so we have a few years before he gets that label permanently.

I guess we can say that he has some of the symptoms but I'm not yet sold on the idea that he's going there.

One thing from reading that is that he would have problems with socializing, which is not his case. He clearly seems to be a sociable person. By the looks of it he has a lot of connections/acquaintances. Another thing is that it states a form of inferiority complex that stems from hypersensitivity on what people think about him. He wouldn't be performing that dance/promotion in the stage if he were afraid of being ridiculed. The least we can see for any implications of this disorder is that he would be hesitant which clearly he was into it with full costume and stuff.

I think he's just a dodgy person when it comes to responsibilities and probably his priorities.

Spoiler for In the novel:

It was really stated in some instances in the novel(Vol.1) that he had problems with his academics and priorities. So I'm guessing the Satoshi wants to maintain a carefree free-spirited personality. Actually we get to see that only in the anime during the Credit roll of the fool arc. He gets dragged out of the club room for his make-up test. He kept trying to make excuses out just so he can be a part of the investigation.

This fits perfectly to his statement that he didn't want to obsess so much about winning or being the best. This is true that if you do something out of pure obsession you lost sight of things. You no longer enjoy the things you do and becomes a pent up frustration.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I was a big fan of Haruhi, but now I think this is the best show KyoAni has ever made. Such powerful delicacy.

Houtarou and Satoshi are quite similar. Both have been avoiding difficulties by not trying too hard. They have both doubted they had much to offer in life. But maybe now their reactions to two girls are helping them to break free of their self-imposed limitations.

Eru demonstrates that you can be naive, emotional, and brilliant at the same time. Her final thank-you to Houtarou was so heart-warming.

Kayano Ai (Mayaka) deserves a supporting actress seiyuu award for this show, and particularly for this episode.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I was a big fan of Haruhi, but now I think this is the best show KyoAni has ever made. Such powerful delicacy.

I'm trying not to let post-episode bias affect me too much, and I'm a huge fan of K-On so I don't really want to admit it to myself, but I think I agree with you. The show has some low points (which aren't nearly as bad as the low points in other shows), but its high points have been consistently amazing for me. The direction and composition of the better episodes in Hyouka are great.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by orion

Kaho is a better candidate than her and is interested in Satoshi.

Kaho is interested in Satoshi when did this happen?

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

I agree that we're getting a lot of unexpected and welcome characterization of Houtarou this late in the story. While Satoshi is a self-admitted egotist underneath that happy-go-lucky exterior, Houtarou tells Chitanda flat-out he can't really understand how she feels when she's at her most emotional, and it reminded me of other times where he avoids any claims as to understanding other people's motivations (including hers). BUT he acts in a way perfectly calibrated to calm her down, including just enough physical restraint. And you can tell he feels terrible about lying to her, and he even bothers to fulfill the literal terms of the promise to get the chocolate to Satoshi--a completely unnecessary use of energy from a practical standpoint. If they aren't a perfectly complementary couple, I don't know what it is.

I'm also going to miss this show a lot. I expected a fun Valentine's Day ep. with more awkward silences between Houtarou and Chitanda, but this ended up being a far more impressive a story, while still keeping those awkward silences. Chitanda getting inches away from making a confession was just priceless.

I think it's pretty telling how he kept on bringing her up during his face-off with Satoshi, and how much Satoshi had ended up hurting her. Houtarou had been slowly but surly falling in love with Chitanda since the moment she enchanted him, and now all what he can think of, even is it is mostly subconsciously, is about her well being.

At this point, it's really just a matter of time before he and Chitanda hook up. The roadwork is there from the physical attraction to the emotional attachment, now the two need to come clean with their feelings ...

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think Hyouka subverts the anime model in an interesting way by having the girls be mostly the ones who drive the plot, and the boys the ones with the more well-developed character arcs and complicated issues. It's always been most obvious to me with Satoshi,

I can agree with that, though I think it merely shifts the importance of the characters to the male members of the cast moreso than most anime of it's genre. But overall, I think that the cast in general had been well developed and all had their own share of complicated issues throughout the shows run. Even Chitanda, the magical eyes bubble head, despite being the one who helped push the plot forward had her own shares of problems and issues to get through, had managed to learn new methods and at times managed to outsmart Houtarou in some ways, so she came a long way with the rest of the cast.

I think what makes the way Hyou-ka approaches this model is that all members of the central cast feel like important players, like they are equals on the same stage with their own sets of different traits and histories, and none of them feel less of of a character than the rest.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

but Houtarou has had a tremendous amount of development, though it's quite gradual and subtle.

I had already figured that out (in fact, I think the general agreement at the start of the series was that by the end, thanks to Chitanda forcing him to move out of his comfort one, Houtarou would end being less anti-social and more like a healthier teenager ) but the thing that still surprise me is just how well paced and organic that transformation had been to this point. I didn't think that I would still see him develop new reactions this late into the show, and for it to be so natural.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is a series that can make other anime look really amateurish by comparison when it goes all-out. Fantastic episode. I think people should look beyond simply hating on Satoshi for hurting Mayaka's feelings and Houtarou for hiding the facts, and dig into the deeper psychological issues involved.

To be clear, I'm not angry at what Houtarou did in this episode. I honestly think he did what was for the best, even if it wasn't necessarily ''the right thing to do''. When I say that I thought he would end up punching Satoshi, it was due to how tense the mood was, even when he graped Eru's hand and I thought she would end up slapping him.

As for what Satoshi did, nope, sorry, still angry. I can tell that there is a story for why he did what he done, but going by what I've seen, Satoshi willingly placed his own self interest above both Mayaka and Chitanda's happiness. I can appreciate he had his reasons to do so (be it fear of commitment or lack of self esteem) but it's hard for me to see how he can do something like that to his friends and let it pass. What he did was wrong, and it caused a great deal of pain for the two, just so he could avoid dealing with something he didn't want to confront.

Maybe if I get to know the full story, I can be more understanding, but for this episode, I'm not really liking him much (though I still find him a very interesting character, more than ever).

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Hyouka is a very unconventional anime, and it needs to be analyzed with the same nuance that goes into its writing.

That I can agree with wholeheartedly