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Old 2007-03-18, 00:42   Link #21
wontaek
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Originally Posted by raphaël View Post
Actually, I don't think there are different style of classical music. "classical" music just refers to 18th century. From Bach (back in the 17th century) to Mozart, who wasn't really "classical" in his time. Then music has been divided into periods. That's all.
Yet again, I may be wrong.

Then I completely agree with ujiuji about film music composers and the early 20th century.
17th ~ 1750: Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Telemann, J. S. Bach --- Baroque
mid 18th century : C.P.E. Bach, Gluck, Salieri --- Rococo
1750 ~ 1827: Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Salieri --- Classical
19th century: Weber, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Verdi --- Romantic

Above is brief summary of what you will see in Music History text books ( I have not added many other important composers for sake of brevity, so please don't burn me for not mentioning them ). When people say Classical Music, various definition exists. Take your pick

1. Music composed for art sake, not according to some commercial model ( Yeah. Tell that to Bach and Haydn who wrote in their complaints about money into their music )
2. Music that requires some formal education to compose and play ( Cannot apply to pre-Rennaissance Music )
3. Music that requires some contemplations to enjoy ( I believe they mean you need to do more than just listen to enjoy classical music, but how can you explain my son liking Mozart's Magic Flute Opera, even though he can't talk! )
4. Music composed in European tradition dating back to Greek music to current academic music composition ( I believe this is the closest to what people expect, but still, it is not a clear cut definition )
5. Music that some snobs who consider themselves to be above most people talks about in order to show off ( Sometimes, this is true )
6. Music that is composed in order to be played by any musician willing to study the score ( This is actually the biggest difference between classical music and pop music. In popular/commercial music, the music is supposed to be played by certain person/group, and any one else playing that music is mere copy. In classical music, there is no such thing as the real player and copies, although some musicians do try to imitate peculiarities that another famous musician introduced into playing that certain piece. As long as you pay for the music score, you are legally allowed to perform classical music composed by someone who is alive, right now, to earn some money. In popular music, you cannot play any music to make money unless you get explicit permission from whomever holding the copyright. Of course, this definition is ignoring long tradition of improvisations, cadenzas, and additional decorations by classical music performers. )
7. Who cares! If I say it is classical, it is calssical!
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Old 2007-03-18, 02:00   Link #22
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Above is brief summary of what you will see in Music History text books
Shouldn't Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff occupy an additional time period? Most of the stuff I've read places them in an additional category. I would consider their music as "classical music" in a broad sense as well.
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Old 2007-03-18, 20:41   Link #23
wontaek
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
Shouldn't Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff occupy an additional time period? Most of the stuff I've read places them in an additional category. I would consider their music as "classical music" in a broad sense as well.
Debussy and Ravel are classified as French Impressionist. Rachmaninoff is classified as late Romantic era composer. All three were active during late 19th century to early 20th century, so in broader sense, they can all be classified as Romantic era composers. To classify them as classical music composer would be using one of the 7 even broader definition I have listed above.
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Old 2007-03-20, 17:01   Link #24
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
6. Music that is composed in order to be played by any musician willing to study the score ( This is actually the biggest difference between classical music and pop music. In popular/commercial music, the music is supposed to be played by certain person/group, and any one else playing that music is mere copy. In classical music, there is no such thing as the real player and copies, although some musicians do try to imitate peculiarities that another famous musician introduced into playing that certain piece. As long as you pay for the music score, you are legally allowed to perform classical music composed by someone who is alive, right now, to earn some money. In popular music, you cannot play any music to make money unless you get explicit permission from whomever holding the copyright. Of course, this definition is ignoring long tradition of improvisations, cadenzas, and additional decorations by classical music performers. )
I think that is a good distinction, but jazz and musical theater would also fall under that definition to some degree. Most of it is more recent so someone does hold a copyright, but except for in certain cases musical theater and jazz songs are not composed with a specific person in mind to perform them.
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Old 2007-03-21, 11:54   Link #25
wontaek
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I think that is a good distinction, but jazz and musical theater would also fall under that definition to some degree. Most of it is more recent so someone does hold a copyright, but except for in certain cases musical theater and jazz songs are not composed with a specific person in mind to perform them.
There are some people who views Jazz and musicals under same light as Classical music. As I said, all the definitions/distinctions I list has some problems, thus none of them can 'correctly' define what people call 'classical music'. Even if you combine some of the definitions I list, there are problems and exceptions.
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Old 2007-03-23, 00:11   Link #26
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I'm probably going to be hung for this, but I prefer Richard Wagner (Yeah the Nazi Icon and noted Germanic supremacists music). Now the person in question I don't care for, but if you've ever seen Legend of The Galactic Heroes you'd know why he is one of the best opera composers that ever lived.
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Old 2007-03-23, 03:44   Link #27
wontaek
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I'm probably going to be hung for this, but I prefer Richard Wagner (Yeah the Nazi Icon and noted Germanic supremacists music). Now the person in question I don't care for, but if you've ever seen Legend of The Galactic Heroes you'd know why he is one of the best opera composers that ever lived.
I believe Zubin Mehta conducted the first concert with Wagner's music in Jerusalem about 20 years ago. The person has many problems, but there are many admirable qualities in his music. Sadly, it was Wagner's experimentalism and sensationalism that gave rise to Serialism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialism ) and 12 tone experiments that forever separated the 'classical' music from 'popular' music.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner
The twentieth century harmonic revolutions of Claude Debussy and Arnold Schoenberg (tonal and atonal modernism, respectively) have often been traced back to Tristan.
Wagner's concept of leitmotif and integrated musical expression has been a strong influence on many 20th century film scores such as John Williams' music for Star Wars.
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Old 2007-03-25, 09:54   Link #28
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I believe Zubin Mehta conducted the first concert with Wagner's music in Jerusalem about 20 years ago. The person has many problems, but there are many admirable qualities in his music. Sadly, it was Wagner's experimentalism and sensationalism that gave rise to Serialism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialism ) and 12 tone experiments that forever separated the 'classical' music from 'popular' music.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner
The twentieth century harmonic revolutions of Claude Debussy and Arnold Schoenberg (tonal and atonal modernism, respectively) have often been traced back to Tristan.
Wagner's concept of leitmotif and integrated musical expression has been a strong influence on many 20th century film scores such as John Williams' music for Star Wars.
Wagner may be a antisemitic, but not a nazi .I heared from somewere that John Williams was influenced by Gustav Holst also.

My favorate composer is Tchaikovsky and beethoven in romantic period, and carl orff in mordern period.but I dont like baroque music that much,I feel sleepy if not irritated when ever i hear them
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Old 2007-03-25, 23:59   Link #29
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Originally Posted by sesshomaru66 View Post
Wagner may be a antisemitic, but not a nazi .I heared from somewere that John Williams was influenced by Gustav Holst also.

My favorate composer is Tchaikovsky and beethoven in romantic period, and carl orff in mordern period.but I dont like baroque music that much,I feel sleepy if not irritated when ever i hear them
If you study the music in Star Wars episode I: Phantom Menace and episode II: Clone War, you will see how often and masterfully John Williams uses the leitmotif to convey message that is not spoken nor seen. In fact, although the Episode II was horrible in many ways, it might have the best overall music works of all the episodes; I'm speaking more or less in view of someone studying how the music fitted into the movie, academically, since the episode IV's music is probably the most recognizable, still, and the Imperial March from Empire Strikes Back has the most fanatical following.

John Williams made many 'formal classical' compositions, and he does know Gustav Holst's work very well.
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Old 2007-03-26, 12:50   Link #30
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
If you study the music in Star Wars episode I: Phantom Menace and episode II: Clone War, you will see how often and masterfully John Williams uses the leitmotif to convey message that is not spoken nor seen. In fact, although the Episode II was horrible in many ways, it might have the best overall music works of all the episodes; I'm speaking more or less in view of someone studying how the music fitted into the movie, academically, since the episode IV's music is probably the most recognizable, still, and the Imperial March from Empire Strikes Back has the most fanatical following.

John Williams made many 'formal classical' compositions, and he does know Gustav Holst's work very well.

The 'duel of fate' music played on darth maul's entery is spine chilling and the music played on geonosis battle is awsome.
I think duel of fate is more influenced by carl orff's music rather than wagner or gustav.Really plenty of anime music(also movie,games etc)are based on carl orff's music.but i havint seen anyone pointing out carl orff anywere on this forum .and Tchaikovsky also.
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:22   Link #31
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The 'duel of fate' music played on darth maul's entery is spine chilling and the music played on geonosis battle is awsome.
I think duel of fate is more influenced by carl orff's music rather than wagner or gustav.Really plenty of anime music(also movie,games etc)are based on carl orff's music.but i havint seen anyone pointing out carl orff anywere on this forum .and Tchaikovsky also.
I agree with your analysis. To me, it was rather clear, the connection between Carl Orff's Carmina Burana's 'O Fortuna' opening and the Darth Maul's entrance, and I felt it was one of most effective use of music in movie history, as far as I know it, perhaps other than the famous 'Jaws' scene, also by John Williams. 'Jaws' music use the same melodic beginning as Dvorak's 9th Symphony ' From the New World ' 4th movement's opening sequence.

Although I'm glad Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony finally got its exposure to mass media from Suzumiya Haruhi Ep. 12 ' the day of Saggitarius', I still am puzzled why nobody used the grand opening in its 1st movement, yet. Someone will do it, some day, and will receive lot of praise for it.
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:50   Link #32
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So are there any Debussy fans here? Recently I'm going nuts over learning some of his more, uh, "poetic" pieces, like The first Arabesque, Claire de Lune, etc. nuts in that I keep trying to learn them all and can't restrain myself. They're not that hard but I'm distracting myself from the stuff I'm supposed to learning for my exam. >_>
Yes! I have played the Suite Bergamasque (Prelude, Menuet, Clair de lune, Passepied) - albeit fairly badly- and I found them so.. brilliant. By far my favourite would be the Prelude. The beginning, with the series of Fs, really touches me. As I got that piece running at full speed, it felt like I was flying and dreaming, all at once.

I am a sucker for any piano concertos. I watched the first and second Rachmaninov concertos being played live a few years back. I think I literally went into a trance. When I can't sleep, I put on Rachmaninov.

If anyone can recommend some piano concertos similar to Rachmaniov's, that'd be great.

Also, I don't know if anyone has heard Neon Genesis Evangelion - The Birthday of Rei Ayanami (link). The style of music on that really appeals to me too. What type is it?
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Old 2007-03-26, 18:30   Link #33
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By far my favourite would be the Prelude. The beginning, with the series of Fs, really touches me. As I got that piece running at full speed, it felt like I was flying and dreaming, all at once.
Wow, are you serious? I love the Prelude! Everyone pays more attention to Claire de Lune from that suite but I really love the Prelude, especially the end when all the ideas seem to converge in a brilliant, energetic display.
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Old 2007-03-26, 22:44   Link #34
Kaoru Chujo
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I don't see the anime Corda D'Oro (Kin-iro no Corda) mentioned in this thread. It just includes bits of some well-known concert pieces, but they seem fairly well played to me, and it really conveys a love of music. Or I should say "conveyed" since the broadcasts just ended. I don't think there is a sub. It's a shoujo reverse harem in which the main girl gets a magic violin and takes part in a competition with several talented boys at a high school specializing in music. After the end credits of each episode there is a little bit of music education for children. I think this show is going to encourage some kids to play -- or to keep playing.
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Old 2007-03-27, 00:12   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
Yes! I have played the Suite Bergamasque (Prelude, Menuet, Clair de lune, Passepied) - albeit fairly badly- and I found them so.. brilliant. By far my favourite would be the Prelude. The beginning, with the series of Fs, really touches me. As I got that piece running at full speed, it felt like I was flying and dreaming, all at once.

I am a sucker for any piano concertos. I watched the first and second Rachmaninov concertos being played live a few years back. I think I literally went into a trance. When I can't sleep, I put on Rachmaninov.

If anyone can recommend some piano concertos similar to Rachmaniov's, that'd be great.

Also, I don't know if anyone has heard Neon Genesis Evangelion - The Birthday of Rei Ayanami (link). The style of music on that really appeals to me too. What type is it?
My first recommendation would be Rachmaninov's 3rd and 4th piano concerto, plus the famous Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. Since you seemed to like late romantic, next obvious choices be three Tchaikovski's Piano Concertos and Grieg's Piano Concerto. My favorites are Brahms's two piano concertos, Beethoven's piano concerto #3, 4, 5, Mozart Piano Concerto #20 & 27, and Antonio Salieri's two piano concertos.
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Old 2007-03-27, 01:13   Link #36
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I don't see the anime Corda D'Oro (Kin-iro no Corda) mentioned in this thread. It just includes bits of some well-known concert pieces, but they seem fairly well played to me, and it really conveys a love of music. Or I should say "conveyed" since the broadcasts just ended. I don't think there is a sub. It's a shoujo reverse harem in which the main girl gets a magic violin and takes part in a competition with several talented boys at a high school specializing in music. After the end credits of each episode there is a little bit of music education for children. I think this show is going to encourage some kids to play -- or to keep playing.
I will speak my personal reason why I was disappointed with the Corda D'Oro and decided not to watch beyond ep.1 of the anime and book 4 of the manga. It is very likely most people will be puzzled at why I am so critical of an enjoyable anime series, but when it comes to 'classical' music, it is hard for me to think like common folks.

Spoiler for if you do want to read my complaint:
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Old 2007-03-27, 13:59   Link #37
Kaoru Chujo
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I just want to say that almost everything wontaek says about Corda D'Oro is true, yet it didn't impair my enjoyment of it in the least. It's not a somewhat realistic show for older teens and adults, like Nodame, it's a fantasy show for young teen girls. And I thought it did its job well enough -- particularly in the emotions and in the way the characters showed enjoyment of music -- to please even some of us who are not in the target audience. Perhaps most of you in this thread are, like wontaek, too mature and knowledgeable to be pleased, but it worked for me. I was even moved by some of the performances, at least in the context of the show. But I just posted about it because I thought you should know about any anime that has a relation to classical music.
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Old 2007-03-27, 15:32   Link #38
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I just want to say that almost everything wontaek says about Corda D'Oro is true, yet it didn't impair my enjoyment of it in the least. It's not a somewhat realistic show for older teens and adults, like Nodame, it's a fantasy show for young teen girls. And I thought it did its job well enough -- particularly in the emotions and in the way the characters showed enjoyment of music -- to please even some of us who are not in the target audience. Perhaps most of you in this thread are, like wontaek, too mature and knowledgeable to be pleased, but it worked for me. I was even moved by some of the performances, at least in the context of the show. But I just posted about it because I thought you should know about any anime that has a relation to classical music.
I'm glad you enjoyed the show, and I do not doubt many others did as well.
Speaking of shows with much classical music in it, I wonder how people feel about the series that elevated use of classical music in the first place, the Legend of Galactic Hero. I still think the first OVA of LoGH features the best use of Ravel's Bolero I have ever experienced. Yes, there are elements in the show that reminds me of Nazi, but still there were much enjoyable elements in the show as well as great classical music.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:34   Link #39
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Glorious Bach Music, Played and Sung by Japanese Ensemble, Wows Audiences in Germany

My favorite composer has long been the German Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750), whom many consider the greatest composer in the history of Western music.

His monumental Mass in B Minor (H-Moll-Messe) may be the greatest work of Christian sacred music ever written.

Because it is Holy Week this week, Bach's sacred and religious music are particularly appropriate during this most solemn, and ultimately joyous, season on the Christian calendar.

Bach's St. Matthew Passion (Matthäuspassion) and St. John Passion (Johannespassion), the two extant passions out of the purportedly five he composed, and his Easter Oratorio (Oster-Oratorium) suit this time of year very well.

When I moved away from classical music several years ago, Englishman Sir John Eliot Gardiner's Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque Soloists, Dutchman Ton Koopman's Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir, and Belgian Philippe Herreweghe's Collegium Vocale Gent & La Chapelle Royale ranked among the leading HIP (historically informed performance) choral and instrumental ensembles of Baroque music.

And they still are.

When I came back to classical music recently, another ensemble had joined their ranks: Bach Collegium Japan, founded and conducted by Japanese Masaaki Suzuki.

Suzuki's Bach Collegium Japan has since become my favorite choral and instrumental ensemble. Their singing and playing are unsurpassed. I love the heavenly, angelic sound of their adult mixed choir - beautiful, radiant and pure, with great diction and oustanding intonation, just perfect for Baroque choral music.

The internationally acclaimed, widely praised Bach Collegium Japan under Masaaki Suzuki won a Cannes Classical Award in 2000 for their superb 1998 recording, released in 1999 on the Swedish label BIS, of the St. John Passion by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Many regard the ongoing Bach Collegium Japan series of the Bach cantatas - most, but not all, are sacred and religious in nature - to be the finest on record.

In his August 18, 2005 article for the highly respected, high brow, German nationwide weekly newspaper Die Zeit, "The Meistersingers from Tokyo: Conductor Masaaki Suzuki and his Japanese Bach Collegium left audiences speechless in a recent tour of Germany," Die Zeit journalist Wolfram Goertz writes:

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Masaaki Suzuki was born in Kobe, in 1954. He is the conductor of the Bach Collegium Japan, a hand-picked group of musicians who since the group's formation in 1990 have dedicated themselves so unswervingly and competently to Bach's music that the western world has been left speechless. The jury of Germany's phonographic award, the Deutscher Schallplattenpreis, recently honoured Suzuki's team for the 27th sequel of its recordings all of Bach's cantatas. Now the troop is in Franconia to perform Bach's Mass in B Minor. After the concert the audience looked as if they couldn't quite believe what they'd just heard. Some were clearly asking themselves what on earth had happened to the world and its traditions that their beloved Bach could be delivered with such profundity, virtuosity and sincerity by, God forbid, the Japanese.

Last edited by Siegel Clyne; 2007-04-08 at 20:17. Reason: Added German titles and more links.
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Old 2007-04-07, 11:20   Link #40
Theowne
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There is a really interesting, well-written, article about an experiment conducted in Washington. The world famous violinist Joshua Bell, who plays to sold out crowds, on a violin worth millions, took his stuff to a Washington subway and pretended to be a street musician. Here's the result:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...hpid=features1
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