2007-02-09, 11:40 | Link #101 |
KING RANSOM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Location Location!
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Why is everyone bashing Kakuzu? Naruto HAS improved. But he's not gonna be completly different. His best skill is being unpredictable, but part of that is instictivley knowing someone else's intent. Once he has that down your done. So far most of the fights have been cheezy cuz it comes out like a battle of fealings, but it's still a battle and naruto knows. So now in addition to Naruto being able to figure you out he's got crazy high end jutsu (Rasengan, Rasenshiruken, Summoning, Kagebushin) They all take a large amount of chakra to do and are extremly powerful and Advanced jutsu. It's like naruto can't learn crappy jutsu. AND he analyzes people's attack patterns activley now. He knew how Kakuzu was underestimating him and took FUll advantage.
1. When kakuzu was taking out the other nin he wasn't scared to get hit by them cuz he was practically immortal. So he set up his body for close and mid range combat, which he was superior at cuz he had tenticles, super element jutsu and a multiple heart shield. Pluss if he hit them they were pretty much dead. 2. When he fought naruto he no longer had the tenticle advantage at close range cuz naruto was quick enough to catch him with a few bushins, Also he no longer had the power advantage cuz naruto's jutsu was stronger, pluss he didn't have the complete heart advantage cuz he would be attacking mostly bushins, so no one hit kills for kazu. 3. So what he did was switch to LONG RANGE MODE. This way he could attack naruto with out fear of being hit by the jutsu. He figured that naruto would use a NORMAL strategy and fight with the least amount of risk to himself, and was wrong. He's probably not as fast in long range mode cuz most of his power is devoted to extra long tenticles as he doesn't really have projectiles or a means to get a 100% hit rate with his jutsu like naruto does with his bushin pot shot method. So all naruto did was make Kakuzu attack (just like last time) and hit him afterwards. With that level of jutsu it only takes once so the chakra consumption wasn't an issue. What we witnessed in this chaper is what Jirya has been gearing naruto for since they met. HIGH POWER jutsu battle. not small time stuff like shikamaru, or ninjutsu supported taijutsu like kakashi and sasuke. Just raw unadultered high power jutsu in your face.
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2007-02-09, 12:32 | Link #102 | |
Conspiracy Theorist
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Being that it was 1 vs many, it was to his advantage to execute attacks that would cause hinderance to all of his foes, at least to the effect of buying him enough time to find an opening... but he didn't; which in turn made him look retarded. Another argument is that he was holding back in case more people come but to counter that, why would it matter? He could simply had retreated at that point since his focus was on Naruto too, the reason why they are in Fire Country in the first place. There is nothing innovative about it; but sheer cheesiness. It very much reminds me of the time when Kabuto just stood there and took the Rasengen hit when he could had killed Naruto in dozens of way before Naruto even bring the Rasengen half the distance required.
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2007-02-09, 12:52 | Link #103 | |||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Or, you can use another argument that didn't receive serious consideration. Why Kakashi didn't use MS at the beginning just after both Kakuzu and Hidan were captured and everything is ready for a simple MS attack?... Quote:
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2007-02-09, 13:45 | Link #104 | |||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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Assuma and Kuranai didn’t though Itachi was that powerful, that’s all, they dint know about Itachi powers, that’s not getting dumber or Stupid. Quote:
Remember they were down there to Reason with Sasuke, not to fight with him. Quote:
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Naruto didn’t outwitted his opponent, rather, his opponent did that to himself. Naruto was supposed to be different; yet, he made the exact Tick he made on Neeji and Kiba. Nothing new About Naruto there.
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2007-02-09, 14:45 | Link #105 | ||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Naruto planned to finish it with his jutsu, and showed in his first failed-attack that it is very easy to defend against that attack as long as it is stopped before the impact. When there are that many opponents he might have to deal after he had done with Naruto, do you really consider Kakuzu as acting intelligent, if he had wasted his whole energy and chakra on an opponent that he assumed to be stopped easily with the way he chose? If he had actually finished his chakra by trying to fight only Naruto and be killed by the others there, would that make a good case of him being intelligent? To me, he was mostly right in his tactic, but he made an incorrect assumption by wrongfully guessing the location of the real opponent. Quote:
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These kinds of things happen. If you cannot accept that it will be hard later on, when those other Akatsuki people get beaten one after the other through fights colored with interesting mistakes. Quote:
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2007-02-09, 15:13 | Link #106 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
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2007-02-09, 15:34 | Link #108 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In Florida
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I thought it was interesting that Kakashi said that his Sharingan wasn't able to follow it, which suggests that the Sharingan does indeed have trouble following at least more complex jutsus. So this was in my opinion also attempting to show weaknesses in Sharingan since Naruto will have to fight Sasuke at some point. I also believe it suggested that the Sharingan doesn't see movements perfectly, but more then likely at a near perfect state. Of course this is based on theory.
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2007-02-09, 15:57 | Link #110 | |
Conspiracy Theorist
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Irregardless of what he heard Naruto told the others, he would be naive to believe that they will not interfere if things went into his favour and not Naruto's. Thus, it should be obvious to him to make an effort (even if he fails) of using the enemy's strength against them and quite simply, this was forcing Naruto on the defensive by making him protect the other combantants from being killed. This has nothing to do with Naruto himself. If it was Sasuke, Itachi, the 4th etc that did this to Kakuzu, I still would had called Kakuzu retarded as hell. Why can't Kishimoto simply make Naruto defeat Kakuzu in a much more believable way? That is what I am questioning. (NB/ I know you replied to my stuff earlier on Sazelyt, but it is best to say that we have some big differences of opinions.)
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2007-02-09, 16:00 | Link #111 | ||||||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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And We can call that Overconfident if you want, and then you will call Kakuzu been also overconfident in that moment, but there is a difference, even if Assuma and Kurenai wouldn’t had been overconfident, The results against Itachi would had been the same, Kakuuzu, Did Had choices and the result could had been different. Quote:
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The easiest Tactic woud had been waste less Chakra (because at stated this Transformation Gathered a lot of energy) , Get far and begin Using those Powerful Jutsu he made before, that were Long Ranged. Getting all his heart together and Attacking directly exposing all his heart it was a poor choice that doesn’t reflect on Kakuuzu supposed Experience, not even Kakashi would had fallen for that. Quote:
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In this case, Kakuuzu was More intelligent than Naruto and more experienced than Naruto, Kakuuzu doesn’t have any excuse, he just turned Dumb. Whereas I still fail to see the two specific Intances of Sasuke and Itachi been Dumbness from their opponents part. Quote:
I’m not lowering the importance of Narutos Pranks and trickeries in Other instances, neither in this one, it help Him against a powerful foe either ways, but it will remain, that this trickery worked because for his convenience his opponent opted to do what he was supposed to do for the Jutsus to hit.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-02-09 at 16:24. Reason: Droped some concepts ^^ |
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2007-02-09, 16:45 | Link #114 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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2007-02-09, 16:48 | Link #115 | |||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Now, I want justice, and I desire a similar excuse to be applied for Kakuzu's case. Quote:
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If acting as himself means getting willingfully put in a situation to easily get killed, then I hope every Akatsuki acts this way, as themselves. Kakuzu also proved that he acted himself in this fight. So, good for him, instead of being another person, he acted as himself. He earned my respect. Quote:
In my opinion, he would have suffered exactly the same fate, even if he had used those attacks. And, by using those attacks, it was highly possible that with bunshins, he might have still failed to catch the real one. As a result, wasting his chakra earlier than he had a chance to damage Naruto. And ending up with zero energy left while all the opponents being alive there. Quote:
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Now, consider this. Naruto, at the time of his clone's attack, in that very short amount of time, wenth behind of Kakuzu, created another Rasengan-Shuriken, and reached back Kakuzu. Regardless of the simplicity of that attack, Naruto displayed a great diversion tactic there. Maybe it would be better to assume that the tricky part is so perfectly combined with Naruto's advantages (for instance, with that wide open Kyuubi eyes, displaying great speed that might even overcome Kakuzu's own there) and the characteristics of the environment, that even the strongest one would have no choice but to fall for it. And, we are not even considering what Naruto can do, like *that jutsu* and summoning Gamabunta there. That's one long post... |
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2007-02-09, 16:53 | Link #116 | |
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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Either ways, If you have good long range attack and your opponent only has Close Range attack, as this Manga has already showed various time, the logical course of action is fighting at long range. Kidoumaru was able to determine that against Neeji, and he didnt decided to release his CS level 2 and then fight Neeji at close range, even when Neeji was over and done for.
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2007-02-09, 17:12 | Link #117 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
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The manga already made it clear that Naruto has changed (faster, smarter, more powerful), although it doesn't show much in the illustration, but that is what the manga is implying. |
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2007-02-09, 17:50 | Link #118 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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It was again a set up situation for Konoha:
1, Hidan: the dumb guy facing the smartest shinobi. Inhuman power destroyed by the genius strategist. Shikamaru couldn't have killed any other akatsukians, a show for Shikamaru set up by Kishimoto. 2, Kakuzu: elemental specialist facing the one who unleashes the strongest known elemental attack. Again a show for Naruto set up by Kishimoto. Kakuzu swithed to use his bloodline taijutsu attack knowing that his elemental attacks are useless: he either hits only a clone or his attack is overpowered by the rasenshuriken and he gets hit by it. |
2007-02-09, 17:51 | Link #119 | ||||||||||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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Who knows if Sasuke could had killed Yamato if Naruto wasn’t there, that’s really isn’t important.. Quote:
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But No sir, as My Opinion, Naruto outdid himself made a Jutsu that was supposed to be impossible to archive and defeated a strong Opponent. My problem is with how Kakuuzu did the thing he should not suppose to do against a Close range fighter using Kage Bushin. And how that is in no way comparable to Sasuke and Itachi moments (whihc is the most important part). Quote:
You know, after looking at what I originally quoted, we really are deviating from the main point into sub-points which really are to troublesome to Debate about them. My main concern whit your observation is that the instances with Itachi. Jiraiya and Kurenai, there were really no Tactics. Only with Jiriaya (and that’s debatable), And It seems like dumbness from Jiraya part, but it because that Dumbness happens to be his weakness, it was there all along, it was nothing new… needles to say, I would had fallen for that trap very easily. That Assuma and Kurenai were overconfident they could take on Akatsuki?, its quite understandable, there are just S-rank criminals, and Assuma and Kurenai are Jounins that should be able to take S-rank criminals on, again, I don’t seem Dumbness from Asssuma or Kurenai, that helped Itachi in any way, besides that Itachi never made any Tactic at all. Asuma and Kurenai just had the bad luck that those S-rank criminals were more than Just Jounnin level shinoby. In the case of Sasuke, its simple, Yamato wasn’t acting serius, However, Sasuke wasn’t relying on Tactics either, So anyone that tries to give credit to Sasuke in this place because his tactics, needs to look Him(her)sefl in the mirror, and then slap his/her Face. Sasuke only credit here was that he did surprised other with his rumored enhanced body. But My main complaint over Kakuuzu, is that he fell for a tactic he should had not fell, regardless if his attack was or wasn’t the best choice for that moment. This one is not the new Naruto, because Naruto already made this Tactic against Neeji, Tricking his opponent to attack an specific Kage Bushin. Quote:
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2007-02-09, 17:53 | Link #120 |
Tesseract Enigma
Graphic Designer
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Hmm Ok, well after reading most of this discussion it seems people are pretty torn up over if Naruto deserves to get credit for Kakuzu's Defeat.
Ok aside from all the things that were already mentioned by other people, the truth in the matter is Naruto gets absolute and full credit for defeating Kakuzu. Its guerrilla warfare if you think about it. Firstly, Kakuzu did everything he had to do in order to maintain his Chakra and still plan out a way to win. As gibits said we already know Kakuzu had lost 2 hearts, that’s 40% of his Chakra gone, his combined elemental attack was countered with another combined elemental attack (which could have been done again if needed), Naruto has unlimited clones, to use such high level elemental jutsu against them would be a huge waste of chakra. None the less moving on, it was not Kakuzu's stupidity for falling for "The oldest trick in the book" (lets not forget, there is a reason it is the oldest trick in the book because even the smartest of people fall for it - gibits). It was Kakuzu's fear and state of mind that caused him to fall for it, hence guerrilla warfare. I don’t know if most of you noticed but after that first close call and, Kakuzu knowing exactly how powerful Naruto's jutsu was just by first glace struck fear in his heart, Kakuzu's first and foremost objective was to get RID of that jutsu one way or another or he was NOT safe / could not focus on anything else (the jutsu was all he could think about). That was his biggest downfall, also his other downfall is most likely assuming that only the original Naruto can / will use the jutsu. None the less, Naruto gets full credit, at that point Kakuzu had an opponent with nearly unlimited chakra + 4 more people behind him if he was defeated, seriously what were Kakuzu's choices? He was struck with the fear of the RasenShuriken and did what he could to avoid it, even changed in to a more long range fighter then he already was, to keep the maximum distance. Which in turn lead to his downfall, Kakuzu did not get dumber, his focus was changed forcefully by Naruto's first attempt (remeber Naruto also caught Kakuzu the first time around without relying on his old tricks, wheres the credit for that?), instead of thinking of the "over all" due to fear and the will to live/win, Kakuzu had only one goal which was to eliminate whoever held "that jutsu", that is what caused Kakuzu's defeat. That objective was put in to Kakuzu by Naruto hence, Naruto gets full credit and then some for pulling of one of the oldest and best switcharu known to man, on a great shinobi like Kakuzu. All Kishimoto did was switch them around (the first and second trial), think of it this way what if we as the fans switched around what had happened. Lets say Naruto had tried the ole clone switcharu first, succeeded but failed to deliver the jutsu. Then he used the "I'll need about 3 clones to distract him blah blah" and landed his jutsu! Naruto would look a lot more impressive them would he not? Well guess what, Naruto caught Kakuzu off guard both times with his "New strategic planning self" and with his "Old tricks". So its the same deal, because no matter how you look at it Naruto gets credit for the first time catching Kakuzu off guard, without using his old tricks, if Kishimoto switched those two around then Naruto would look like the man.
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Last edited by 0TaKu0; 2007-02-09 at 18:21. |
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