2010-08-21, 16:13 | Link #461 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
It's also very disturbing, the idea that Beatrice 2 is younger then Rudolph yet he had incest with her or whatever.
Seriously, Kinzo is becoming a hole we can shove all the wrongs in the serie to. ... I'm more comfortable with the idea that Beato 1 either never existed (cause I think that submarine story makes Kinzo into a worthless jerk instead of a genius of timing) at this point. Guy hates his life, hates being the head of the Ushiromiya and hates his wedding. Then he still has 3 child. He hates life enough he joins the army to get killed. He also hates every women. Instead he falls in love with a Submarine, an italian girl (even tho she's a women) and 10 tons of faded away marked gold. She dies giving birth to a child, younger then his own children. The daughter he supposedly loves of the women he supposedly loved (while hating everyone else, especially women) he forces to live in seclusion and keeps her more ignorant then an average elementary school student. Somehow around the same time he has another daughter he hates from his wife he hates from his family he hates. He doesn't put her however through half the shit he put Beato-2. While that happens he start to loan tons of money to his children, accept their husband/wife in the family (even allows Eva to keep her name for his love of Hideyoshi, whom he nontheless supposedly hate as he hates everyone) He even apparently forces them to chose specific names, all western of course. He loves the west. He hates his family. 1 -1 =/= 2. He even gets very upset at Rosa not naming Maria the way he wanted her to be named. He hardcore incest/rape Beato-2, however she somehow magicallly remains innocent of the world. Even after giving birth. She then dies after of innocence overdose. While he thouht it would be a good idea to keep Beato-2 secretly raised in Kuwadorian forever, he decided to make her own child be adopted by Krauss/Natsuhi. It doesn't work well and the child apparently dies. HE FINDS IT FUNNY. He realizes somehow the child is still alive (after going through the same fate as her mother, but somehow miraculously surviving it) and sends it to an orphanage. He eventually hires her to work under a false name and let her, whom he supposedly love, be abused by the rest of the family, including Natsuhi/Krauss who he supposedly hate. He even makes her go through the troubles of doing two shifts at once by the sake of Kanon, cause Kinzo loves more men (not sexually... well as far as we know at least). He makes her somehow his successor, HOWEVER, he also puts up the epitaph, to give the rest of the family, people he all hate and despise, a chance to become the successor. Then he plans to bomb everyone on the island with a nuke after his own death. Several of his close friends is aware of most to all of that and they don't mind, and continue to respect him and consider him a truly inteligent person. So what's Kinzo in the end? A psychopath who spontaneously contradicts his own self every few mins? Who suffers froms tons of sins, including some which didn't even bring him anything, and often where he still in the end treat the people he's supposed to hate better then the ones he's supposed to love. Either Umineko is the most far fetched ridiculously story ever, or this is all false informations. |
2010-08-21, 16:18 | Link #462 | |
Local Crackpot
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
|
Quote:
Also, it's quite possible that half of that isn't even true. Just fan speculation.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-21, 16:23 | Link #464 | |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
|
Quote:
EDIT: And I'm not saying that the rest of the family didn't have a chance to solve it, but...
__________________
|
|
2010-08-21, 16:26 | Link #465 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
You don't need an epitaph to make a rigged succession, you need a lawyer.
My point is he still publicly displayed it before his own death. @ Olivier I don't LIKE what I said. I wanted to really respect Kinzo, but after what I learn of arc 7, your signature became literally the truth about the Umineko world. |
2010-08-21, 16:38 | Link #466 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
I don't like it either. But I am biased, I think, as I really like Kinzo. I kinda downplay some of the bad stuff he has to have done, but I still very much doubt these depictions of him. If for no other reason than, as Usagi has masterfully outlined, they don't really make a whole lot of sense put next to each other. Human beings can be full of contradictions, sure, but this aggregate portrait of Kinzo makes him out to be The Joker.
__________________
|
2010-08-21, 16:39 | Link #468 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Of course he had to display it publicly. It would be hard enough to make the family accept an heir out of thin air, nevermind bringing your family in to tell them "I created this riddle and gave it to one person secretly. The solved it and get my gold and bomb, wheeee!"
__________________
|
2010-08-21, 16:44 | Link #470 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-08-21, 17:21 | Link #471 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
|
If we assume that no existences are an illusion (an assumption EP7 seems to push us away from), Battler's also missing a corpse, isn't he ?
Interesting connection, given how many similarities that tea party game has with EP4.
__________________
|
2010-08-21, 17:40 | Link #472 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Having decided that Kanon's corpse must be in the well since all other corpses were located in the places Kyrie's story told they would be, he spends much of his remaining time trying to cut the bars on the well, so it's not too big a stretch to think that he never opened the parlor, or, for that matter, Kinzo's study -- which is a room he doesn't even have a key to. I should say we're FAR from being done with the first four episodes. EDIT: Also notice that Out of Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. And according to Bern's story, Leon was the first of the cousins to be killed...
__________________
|
|
2010-08-21, 17:42 | Link #473 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
Then it came out, and I started to feel doubt. What's the point of making an arc that's nearly entirely a troll right next to the end? Suppose nearly everything in arc 7 is wrong, then once arc 8 comes out and tells the real story, what'll be the worth left of arc 7? Basically there has to be a purpose of arc 7 that remains true to the whole story. I guess, if that's the case and my supposition isn't wrong it's probably to show us the "equation that leads to disaster". But there's much more worst to consider. Hoping that this is all nonsense until arc 8 comes out, realize it's actually the truth, and be in utter deception 3 times more then I am now. Frankly I don't get Ryukishi. I vote for the later myself, but I lost faith in him I think, and expect Umineko's truth to be along the lines of stackable rooms puzzles rather then sensical story. Honestly with the type of answers arc 7 gave out, I'm more satisfied with the fantasy explanation of the story right now. I'd be really happy to be proven wrong. |
|
2010-08-21, 17:45 | Link #475 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
|
But to clear some things up, several things here are not that right, at least not as far as I remember, so please correct me back if I got something wrong.
Quote:
Quote:
He's just of a generation that still regarded men as superior to women, as wrong as this may be, he wasn't alone in his conception of marriage and women at all. He just grew to despise the concept of arranged marriage and arranged life...so in a way it also makes sense to put his children (who he doesn't love) through the same thing. Quote:
This also means that he didn't "put her [...] through shit", from his perspective he protected his beloved Beatriiiiiice~ from the world. What happened to his other children was pretty much none of his business. Quote:
We can't even know if it was an accident at all when she tripped and fell. Maybe she commited suicide on purpose... Quote:
He himself couldn't raise a child without drawing suspicion, so he used that fact that Natsuhi had fertility problems (or maybe it was Krauss) and tried to force it unto her. He never found it FUNNY at all when the child (apparently) died, he as distraught over the fact that he had to loose someone he loved another time and possibly went down the last few steps to insanity. Quote:
And Kinzo never knew that the child had survived until Genji brought Yasu to him, when s/he had solved the epitaph many years later. According to what Genji said, he made Nanjo forge the documents to create a child 2 years younger, who was send to Fukuin and then back to the island. So it was a secret between Kumasawa, him and Nanjo which they kept to keep the tragedy of Beato#2 from repeating itself. Quote:
Why Genji was okay with how they were treated I don't know, but Kumasawa shows how much she regrets it, having to stand by and not being able to do anything. But let's be honest, Shannon is not the only one being maltreated in that house. Quote:
Genji waited for her and showed her to Kinzo, who was surprised and glad he could make someone his successor he cared about. But after Kinzo's death, Yasu announces that he does not care for neither gold nor title, because he never was an Ushiromiya to begin with (and possible other horrible reasons, according to the flashbacks)...so he keeps the epitaph up and wants to see who will continue the title instead of him. Quote:
Any Beatrice was never in danger of being hurt, because the bomb was devised in a way that Kuwadorian would stay unharmed. It would have only been the Ushiromiyas who would have died and the servants at that time and the current Beatrice (#1 or #2) would have survived. Quote:
I don't think that it is all so far fetched...considering this is a mystery/detective story and we have to have people with a dark past. If we look back on this genre, Kinzo is a typical father figure of an important household...they all had terrible backgrounds like that, be it with Doyle, Christie, Dine or modern Japanese writers like Ayatsuji, Kyougoku or Orihara...
__________________
|
||||||||||
2010-08-21, 17:45 | Link #476 |
Woof?
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: A lake
Age: 30
|
Trying not to drift off topic and disrupt this discussion so I'm going to throw this out there. The "Golden Nocturne" bgm is from this episode, right? If so, has anyone got a download link for that music in particular? I can't find any downloads no matter how hard I look. D:
|
2010-08-21, 18:11 | Link #477 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Episode 7 is meant to be an object lesson about what it means to "have love" -- for the author, the characters, and the story. As such, it is the most important episode in the entire series, even though it contains little to no new information, and what it does contain is extremely misleading or an outright lie. It is specifically assembled from fan theories and written up in a typical Ryukishi style which makes it feel acceptable. It also selects those theories in such a fashion as to push the highest possible amount of emotional, ideological and spiritual buttons. There is, in fact, a chance that some of these theories were seeded by Ryukishi himself to make that object lesson, (see "OZ" earlier up the thread) though that's speculation, to be honest.
The episode is deliberately designed to attack everything that someone might hold dear, targeting as wide a range as possible. The narration even comments on how well it all fits, hoping that we'll take it as the sign that this is all it. If you don't rebel after all that, you don't deserve to have the solution, because you have not really been thinking. Of course, the above is just my opinion. But if my opinion is wrong, Ryukishi is committing a knowingly evil act.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-21, 18:20 | Link #480 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
"Nice boat."
__________________
|
|
|
|