Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[Ravagerblade]

Do we know how 'close' Accelerator is to lvl6? Also I do remember talking about it on some thread; Misaka closeness to it is 5.5 rounded up.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Birdway

There is no proof to assume that, though.

There is no proof to not assume that either. However, of the two of us, my assumption is more natural. As it is natural to assume that a gun fires bullets, it is also natural to assume that Pendex's magic uses Grimoire spells, which I've argued are more concentrated versions of regular spells. Your assumption that the wings are something else are akin to assuming that a gun shoots caramel bon-bons for no reason.

Originally Posted by Birdway

And all of them had arranged rituals beforehand that only needed to be activated by the characters with certain action. Index's wasn't. So no, it doesn't makes sense at all.

Innocentius could stay active even when Stiyl wasn't focusing on it. Sherry's Golems could work on auto-pilot even when she wasn't controlling them. There are tons and tons of spells in TAMNI that, once cast, require no focus on the user's part to maintain. So many, in fact, that I believe them to be the standard.

Seriously, how many spells in TAMNI have been proven to require concentration after activation? There's Ars Magna and that's about it. I cannot recall any instances of any magicians losing power in their spells due to lack of focus. You called the fact that magic should weaken with concentration "logic" but what you actually meant was "common sense", which is a whole different animal. However, magic doesn't fall under common sense by definition, so your argument has nothing to stand on.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Dude, that's happening at the same time.

There are various parts from the same chapter starting with "At the same time".

Stiyl used the restraining card and Laura made her declaration in Chapter 11 part 3. Fiamma was defeated in Chapter 12 part 2. If they had happened within the same chapter, you could have argued for simultaneity, but as it is, I see no evidence to suggest that there wasn't a time lag between the two. Even 20 seconds would have been enough for Pendex to remove the card.

Originally Posted by Birdway

No. We don't know how the grimoires would do on her but I doubt those will kill her, or else she wouldn't been used as the vessel of such knowledge.

Wasn't she chosen because her perfect memory made it possible to store the Grimoires in the first place? After all, normal people cannot remember 103000 books by heart.

After that, all they had to do was place layers and layers of spells on her to make her immune to Grimoires. Those spells are what keep her safe from contamination, or at least there is no evidence that suggests otherwise.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Yeah, but I meant during the time she manifested, she had to go somewhere else after crashing. AC was the place.

The point is she did go to AC, which meant she underwent the program, after which any use of magic would have meant ruptured blood vessels. She used her miracle power, which is related to the power that created her, without harm, so it cannot be magic.

In the final parts of the movie, Aleister and Laura themselves disavowed Arisa from being part of either side. You should read the Dengeki PlayStation's interview of Kamachi Kazuma, it has some interesting things about Arisa.

On an aside, I find it strange that people are shedding doubts on Gensei's conclusions. He may not be Aleister, but he is a Kihara and that is not something to be taken lightly.

Remember Kihara Enshuu? She was abducted before she even learned basic arithmetic and raised in almost complete isolation in a practically bare room. Somehow in those conditions she managed to recreate modern science in her head. It took centuries and billions of dollars for hundreds of scientists to reach that point, but it only took a few years and a bunch of cheap instruments for one Kihara girl without formal education.

Of all the things that happened in TAMNI, this one stretched my suspension of disbelief the most. It's like "here, have this glass of water" and she goes like "thanks, now I can master quantum physics". Seriously, what the Hell?! She could make Reed Richards and Doctor Doom look like bumbling infants. This is 1000000 times more abnormal than a Majin. And yet that girl is considered a failure.

Gensei doesn't have the full picture because he doesn't know of magic, but his science would be impeccable. His knowledge may be incomplete, but I seriously doubt it is mistaken.

[Phibrizzo]

And my post got ignored lol ;_;

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Phibrizzo

I would like to add that Bettle Kakine admit he can't use the full power of Dark matter because he is afraid the dark parts of him to surface and take control, so yeah the dark matter that was used vs Rensa is a weak version of it.

All I saw in the entirety of NT7 was a mention that using Dark Matter to split into several individuals carried risks. It never said anywhere that he was holding back. If you want to prove otherwise, you'll need to quote the exact lines.

Originally Posted by Phibrizzo

There are some special humans

The pope could read several grimmores (he was in pain but he did manage... which speak a lot of his will and magic level)
Fiamma never really read a grimmore directly
Aureolus wrote and seal several grimmores (then again outside the super mages he is pretty freaking broken himself).

Little to add, except that the Holy Right was also protecting Fiamma. Suffice to say, there are ways to protect yourself against Grimoires, but few of them are fool proof.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

you said it yourself, dark matters limitations arent really clear...
in fact: only that he can create infinite matter which defies physics is a broken power, without the immortal-power-up....
unfortunatly he seems to never use that part of his ability....
either lack of experience or kakine will always be a "im coming back stonger than before but everyone still defeats me"-char.

We do know a few things about Dark Matter's limits. One, it can be negated by IB, so its output is lower than, say, Birdway's attacks. Two, its power is inferior to the stuff that makes up Accelerator's Wings, since he gets pasted whenever he faces them. Three, it provides no protection again Majins, as a certain volleyball can attest. Four, he can't simply no sell attacks at will, since Accelerator's tornado wings, which are essentially natural wind once they leave the area of his Vector Redirection, were effective against it.

[Phibrizzo]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

All I saw in the entirety of NT7 was a mention that using Dark Matter to split into several individuals carried risks. It never said anywhere that he was holding back. If you want to prove otherwise, you'll need to quote the exact lines.

You are correct my bad, it was splitting to much.

[Ravagerblade]

I don't know if it been talked about in here or not.
Angels;

Spoiler for Question based on What an Angel really is as a being or not:

Is it absolute fact they have no 'personality'? If misha kreutzev was actually an angel it certainly seemed to have its own mind. But then we get the Misha/Gabriel (I think) in WWIII, who seems to speak it's own language therefore conveying a more complete 'angel?' hence seemed close to having no 'personality'.

Do magicians have the belief based on actually fact or it is hearsay?

[ACertainStark]

It was mainly because of Angel Fall in that case, right?

However, when a divine angel falls from heaven due to the effects of Angel Fall, they can break the orders of God in order to return to Heaven, such as killing humans, despite creating a paradox for God's plans for the Final Judgement, and seemingly have an orderly fashion of thinking. As with the case of Archangel Gabriel

[Ravagerblade]

but do they actually have a personality instead of a 'balloon' basically. Thoughts desires, that such. It's said that they don't, but I don't know I get the feeling that's not really the case. At least not fully.

[LevelSeven]

but do they actually have a personality instead of a 'balloon' basically. Thoughts desires, that such. It's said that they don't, but I don't know I get the feeling that's not really the case. At least not fully.

imagine: from star trek tng: Data, he is a android, the way he things and acts is only based on his pogram...

the angels in toaru arent different, they are tools, high calculating and powerful tools but still nothing more than tools, similar with kazakiri...

Do we know how 'close' Accelerator is to lvl6? Also I do remember talking about it on some thread; Misaka closeness to it is 5.5 rounded up.

he seems to be 'closer' than mikoto in her 5.5 version...
afterall, mikoto was able to start and create dark matter, this alone was the limit of her (since she started to loose her self)...
accel on the other hand already reached a state where this wings can pop up if he is angry enough.... and this even in different versions, so i would place accels 'closeness' to level6 by 5.75 (by white wings)....

We do know a few things about Dark Matter's limits. One, it can be negated by IB, so its output is lower than, say, Birdway's attacks. Two, its power is inferior to the stuff that makes up Accelerator's Wings, since he gets pasted whenever he faces them. Three, it provides no protection again Majins, as a certain volleyball can attest. Four, he can't simply no sell attacks at will, since Accelerator's tornado wings, which are essentially natural wind once they leave the area of his Vector Redirection, were effective against it.

1. the negating part is debattable, why?
a. kakine, no, the weaker version, beetle, didnt fought against touma, he was slammed agaisnt him without wanting it.....
b. we dont know where the limits of the reneraration lies... it can be that touma touches a dark matter object but even after the 'Ping', the creation exists like always...

2. nothing to say about this...

3. nothing provides protection agaisnt the power of a 100% majin.....not even IT has a chance...

4.i will simply call this fight BS because matter which defies the rules of physics should be able to do impossible feats like walking through solid objects or changing its properties into a unbreakable matter...
the reason why kamachi limits them is because: the power would be the most broken in toaru, even more than accels.....

Spoiler for quote:

From behind him spread murky black wings, as if they shot out from his back. This pair of wings that contained something which could blow away the mind, and anger that shattered his own sense of self, spread instantly over tens of meters, and shaved off parts of the buildings and roads around him.

“Ha.”

This pair of black wings, Kakine had seen it before, and knew what it was.

The elementary particles that didn’t exist in this world, Dark Matter.

“… So strong. Such powerful evil. So you can do it if you put your mind to it, villain. If that’s the case then indeed Dark Matter is only suitable for being the spare plan. However, this doesn’t mean it’s all decided!!”

Kakine’s six wings, as if responding to his roar, spread explosively. The wings that spanned several tens of meters emitted a mysterious glow, and at the same time had an inorganic feel like a machine. Almost like a giant weapon gods and angels normally use.

Flap. The air around the six wings let out a howl.

Accelerator and Dark Matter controlled the organic and inorganic powers respectively.

Different from this world, this was 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The One Who Wields the Power of God and The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. Now the odds of victory were even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine hadn't lost himself.

An unprecedented power was expanding within him.

And, he had perfectly mastered this power.

i am the only one who thinks that accel used this wings in the past?? before the start of the series??

well, i think i will take this as a proove that their wings are really something comepltly new, and nothing from the normal world which contains espers and magicians....

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

There is no proof to not assume that either. However, of the two of us, my assumption is more natural. As it is natural to assume that a gun fires bullets, it is also natural to assume that Pendex's magic uses Grimoire spells, which I've argued are more concentrated versions of regular spells. Your assumption that the wings are something else are akin to assuming that a gun shoots caramel bon-bons for no reason.

Isn't natural, what I mean is that that living virus-like mechanism is what gives her powers that breaks the rules of th world not just the spell those grimoires may have. To me is more natural to assume what I say because once you reach certain level you start to leave the "normal" of the side you are in, that's why she's a candidate to become a magic god.

Innocentius could stay active even when Stiyl wasn't focusing on it. Sherry's Golems could work on auto-pilot even when she wasn't controlling them. There are tons and tons of spells in TAMNI that, once cast, require no focus on the user's part to maintain. So many, in fact, that I believe them to be the standard.

What the hell, dude. Styil needs to concentrate to support Innocentius. That's why his body is very vulnerable. Sherry's golem also needs to be controlled and once Touma punched Sherry the control link was lost and Ellis went on a rampage.

Seriously, how many spells in TAMNI have been proven to require concentration after activation? There's Ars Magna and that's about it. I cannot recall any instances of any magicians losing power in their spells due to lack of focus. You called the fact that magic should weaken with concentration "logic" but what you actually meant was "common sense", which is a whole different animal. However, magic doesn't fall under common sense by definition, so your argument has nothing to stand on.

You're stretching too far on the examples to prove your point and I'm proving you wrong cuz you're not seeing their working.

Stiyl used the restraining card and Laura made her declaration in Chapter 11 part 3. Fiamma was defeated in Chapter 12 part 2. If they had happened within the same chapter, you could have argued for simultaneity, but as it is, I see no evidence to suggest that there wasn't a time lag between the two. Even 20 seconds would have been enough for Pendex to remove the card.

Styil said it himself, that's enough time to mess with Fiamma. And if you are ignoring the chapter(s) on purpose Carrisa send a treat message to the Anglicans if Laura didn't want to help them. Afterwards Fiamma was unable to access to the knowledge, can't you make the sequence?

Wasn't she chosen because her perfect memory made it possible to store the Grimoires in the first place? After all, normal people cannot remember 103000 books by heart.

After that, all they had to do was place layers and layers of spells on her to make her immune to Grimoires. Those spells are what keep her safe from contamination, or at least there is no evidence that suggests otherwise.

First of all, people with eidetic memory aren't that uncommon, and you're assuming those layers are just to make her inmune to grimoire when in the series it's been shown that protections against grimoires are futile. Whatever she is or has it's something that is beyond what you say, Ouma hinted that no human could bear that much unless she wasn't human.

The point is she did go to AC, which meant she underwent the program, after which any use of magic would have meant ruptured blood vessels. She used her miracle power, which is related to the power that created her, without harm, so it cannot be magic.

In the final parts of the movie, Aleister and Laura themselves disavowed Arisa from being part of either side. You should read the Dengeki PlayStation's interview of Kamachi Kazuma, it has some interesting things about Arisa.

This doesn't contradicts my initial statement about her being a mix of both science and magic with puts her out of science only/magic only labels. She is outside the rules that binds both sides.

On an aside, I find it strange that people are shedding doubts on Gensei's conclusions. He may not be Aleister, but he is a Kihara and that is not something to be taken lightly.

Kihara knows the basics but doesn't knows the theory Aleister knows.

Gensei doesn't have the full picture because he doesn't know of magic, but his science would be impeccable. His knowledge may be incomplete, but I seriously doubt it is mistaken.

Putting the part about Enshuu and Kamachi's lulz aside. Gensei himself was mistaken, he knew that his experiment was meant to fail, his style is fail and try again, like any scientist would do.

[LevelSeven]

First of all, people with eidetic memory aren't that uncommon, and you're assuming those layers are just to make her inmune to grimoire when in the series it's been shown that protections against grimoires are futile. Whatever she is or has it's something that is beyond what you say, Ouma hinted that no human could bear that much unless she wasn't human.

index is human, she isnt different from styil OR ouma...
you cant take the things a char is saying as fact...
as example: what amata said about accels wings seems to not be correct....
what ollerus said about toumas IB seems to be not completly correct...

for ouma: index wasnt human...
for othinus: index is a small fry and her knowledge isnt even the 1:1000 of hers....
so this is really relatively....

What the hell, dude. Styil needs to concentrate to support Innocentius. That's why his body is very vulnerable. Sherry's golem also needs to be controlled and once Touma punched Sherry the control link was lost and Ellis went on a rampage.

ellis changed into the atuomatic mode where she reacts after a simple porgam and not after the order from serry, this is th ereaosn why spell intercept didnt work anymore...

Putting the part about Enshuu and Kamachi's lulz aside. Gensei himself was mistaken, he knew that his experiment was meant to fail, his style is fail and try again, like any scientist would do.

his experiment wasnt doomed to fail because:
if he would be able to change mikoto inot a level6, than it would exactly happen what he wanted....
it failed in the point that he couldnt create a stable level6 but it would have scucceeded in the end: gaining a small "look" into the realms of godhood...

Kihara knows the basics but doesn't knows the theory Aleister knows.

they are still the intelligent brains in toaru after aleister....
it isnt really odd if they are able to predict stuff which was never reached before...

[Birdway]

for ouma: index wasnt human...
for othinus: index is a small fry and her knowledge isnt even the 1:1000 of hers....
so this is really relatively....

She never said that, however.
Othinus isn't also absolute either.

ellis changed into the atuomatic mode where she reacts after a simple porgam and not after the order from serry, this is th ereaosn why spell intercept didnt work anymore...

Out of control of the magicians command.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

1. the negating part is debattable, why?
a. kakine, no, the weaker version, beetle, didnt fought against touma, he was slammed agaisnt him without wanting it.....
b. we dont know where the limits of the reneraration lies... it can be that touma touches a dark matter object but even after the 'Ping', the creation exists like always...

You forgot this:

Originally Posted by Volume NT7

She used Academy City’s #2 power.

White wings made of Dark Matter grew from her back and attacked everything behind her. The wings changed into hundreds of stakes. If they struck a human body, they would tear it to pieces and transform it into a formless sticky liquid.

However…

With the sound of breaking glass, those white wings that supposedly held absolute destructive power shattered.

“…”

Rensa finally decided to turn around to check behind her, but Kamijou unhesitatingly kicked the center of her small back before she could.

IB can destroy Dark Matter, end of story.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

4.i will simply call this fight BS because matter which defies the rules of physics should be able to do impossible feats like walking through solid objects or changing its properties into a unbreakable matter...
the reason why kamachi limits them is because: the power would be the most broken in toaru, even more than accels.....

Dark Matter defies physics, that's true, but that doesn't make it omnipotent. You assume that Kakine can create Dark Matter with any properties he likes, but this was never stated anywhere.

My theory is that Dark Matter has fixed properties that Kakine cannot change. Dark Matter may mess with physics, but the way it messes with physics is predetermined and immutable. Take his stunt of turning sunlight into death rays. The fact that sunlight diffracted through Dark Matter becomes harmful radiation might be a fixed property of Dark Matter. He could not, for instance, make the diffracted light taste like strawberries instead, because that is not a property of Dark Matter.

This would explain why Accelerator can match Dark Matter wings with his own Tornado Wings. Kakine can't simply make his Dark Matter immune to wind, that is not a feat that is within reach of its properties.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Isn't natural, what I mean is that that living virus-like mechanism is what gives her powers that breaks the rules of th world not just the spell those grimoires may have. To me is more natural to assume what I say because once you reach certain level you start to leave the "normal" of the side you are in, that's why she's a candidate to become a magic god.

All magic defies the rules of the world. Grimoires just do it better than magicians because their knowledge is more concentrated. Even so, they don't depart from the rules of normal magic, they just exploit them to the maximum extent.

That knowledge alone doesn't place you in the territory of a Magic God, or even a half Magic God. The synopsis of Volume NT10 all but confirms that you need a special ritual to seal the deal. Index's knowledge might let her figure out a way to become a Magic God, but for now she hasn't touched that territory yet.

Originally Posted by Birdway

What the hell, dude. Styil needs to concentrate to support Innocentius. That's why his body is very vulnerable. Sherry's golem also needs to be controlled and once Touma punched Sherry the control link was lost and Ellis went on a rampage.

No, Stiyl needs to provide Innocentius with mana, but he doesn't have to concentrate to do so after the spell has been cast. In Volume 1, Stiyl had Innocentius chase Touma around until he exited the range of the rune cards. He wasn't focusing on him for all of that scene. Furthermore, after Touma turned on the sprinklers but before Touma destroyed Innocentius for the last time, Stiyl had a moment of panic when he thought that Innocentius had been destroyed, indicating that he cannot tell if Innocentius has been destroyed, which should be impossible if he's always concentrating on it.

Sherry's example actually proves my point. The golem did not lose any power when in auto-pilot mode. Hence, focus does not affect power output, only control. It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade her attacks.

The end of the line is that there is not a single line in the text that states that Pendex lost power output. All you have is your common sense, which doesn't apply here.

Originally Posted by Birdway

You're stretching too far on the examples to prove your point and I'm proving you wrong cuz you're not seeing their working.

Right back at you.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Styil said it himself, that's enough time to mess with Fiamma. And if you are ignoring the chapter(s) on purpose Carrisa send a treat message to the Anglicans if Laura didn't want to help them. Afterwards Fiamma was unable to access to the knowledge, can't you make the sequence?

Originally Posted by Volume 22

“Warning: Chapter 47, Verse 80. Restraining effect on mind and body due to a psychological effect has been confirmed. It is affecting mental functions. Leading the restraining effect to a dummy area and putting priority on maintaining ability to analyze spells.”

The rune on the laminated card started to fade like a poster that had been left in the sun for long periods of time. The important “staining” of the rune was being removed. Of course, once that coloration disappeared, its effects would disappear too. It would not last long.

(…She may have been weakened by the interruption from the remote control spiritual item, but she is still the library of 103,000 grimoires. I did not think that this would be enough to seal her.)

What he had managed to do was buy some time.

At a fundamental level, Stiyl Magnus could not defeat Index.

However…

“I do not mind.” With a small smile on his face, Stiyl pulled a new rune card from his pocket. “If that annoying boy can finish things in this time, we win.”

He then heard a footstep.

Stiyl looked over to find Laura Stuart smiling.

She was lightly swinging around something in her hand.

At first Stiyl thought it was the remote control spiritual item and his eyes opened wide in shock, but that was not what it was.

Laura was holding a card-shaped communications spiritual item.

“Here’s your reward,” she said.

She brought that communications spiritual item that was connected to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church close to her lips.

“Well, it seems the quota has been met, so I will aid in the retrieval of the grimoire library as well.”


And so the three major Christian denominations, the Anglican Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Russian Orthodox Church, finally joined forces.

They had a single objective.

Fiamma of the Right’s castle known as the Star of Bethlehem would be robbed of its power in order to stop any more atrocities from occurring.

They began to move in order to tear off the chains that were binding the world.


Kamijou Touma and Fiamma of the Right wielded their respective arms.

Multiple shockwaves shook the area, and the magical aftereffects turned into a flood of light that scattered about. Besides the direct clashes, light flashed intermittently around them and blood red beams of light were fired in multiple directions. It was an attack using the 103,000 grimoires.

Fiamma could still use the 103000 grimoires even after Stiyl had pulled off the stunt with the restraint card. Your argument doesn't stand up. What blocked his access must have come after that.

Originally Posted by Volume 22

“I see, I see. So that’s it. In other words, the techniques and knowledge of the Anglican Church are needed in addition to those of the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church in order to bring down the Star of Bethlehem.”

The second princes gave multiple quick nods.

“In that case, tell this to the head of the Anglican Church: If you do not immediately disclose the necessary information, Second Princess Carissa of the Royal Family and of military matters will shove Curtana up your ass.”

...

“Here’s your reward,” she said.

She brought that communications spiritual item that was connected to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church close to her lips.

“Well, it seems the quota has been met, so I will aid in the retrieval of the grimoire library as well.”

Here's how I interpret this. The necessary information was in the grimoire library. The grimoire library was Index. In order to obey Carissa's orders, Laura Stuart helped Stiyl subdue Index. Since this lifted the burden on Stiyl of having to fight a berserk Pendex, this can be considered a reward for him. I seem to be drawing connections just fine.

Originally Posted by Birdway

First of all, people with eidetic memory aren't that uncommon, and you're assuming those layers are just to make her inmune to grimoire when in the series it's been shown that protections against grimoires are futile. Whatever she is or has it's something that is beyond what you say, Ouma hinted that no human could bear that much unless she wasn't human.

First of all, as others have argued before, Index's perfect memory is much more abnormal than eidetic memory. The real thing isn't as impressive as what Index has.

Second, Index's protections are a lot more hardcore than what Tecpatl had. This is Necessarius we're talking about; they have better resources than some Aztec cabal in Latin America. Tecpatl merely figured out how to use his grimoire without contacting it, which gave Etzali an opening to steal it from him. The layers of barriers on Index have been laid so thick they border on destroying her mind just as bad as the grimoires would.

Grimoires are not omnipotent. They need mana to function. Cut off their mana and for all the mind breaking knowledge they contain, they can't do anything. Index's barriers do exactly that.

Originally Posted by Birdway

This doesn't contradicts my initial statement about her being a mix of both science and magic with puts her out of science only/magic only labels. She is outside the rules that binds both sides.

What part of her powers resembles magic? She isn't calling upon any supernatural setting to cause her miracles, nor was any such setting involved in her birth and re-fusion. Science isn't involved in her creation or powers either; she just happened to go through the curriculum later on.

Rather than a mix of science and magic, isn't it more reasonable to say she is a being like Frueline Kreutune, who doesn't belong to either side? Nowhere is it said that magic and science are the only supernatural powers in TAMNI.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Kihara knows the basics but doesn't knows the theory Aleister knows.

Putting the part about Enshuu and Kamachi's lulz aside. Gensei himself was mistaken, he knew that his experiment was meant to fail, his style is fail and try again, like any scientist would do.

Oh no, he knew the experiment would succeed. He just happened to have a different definition of success than yours.

Mikoto could have achieved Level 6 for a few instants with support from exterior to anchor past 52%. After that, she would collapse and take AC down with her. Reasonable people like you and I would call this a failure. However, to a Kihara, this insane result would qualify as success.

[LevelSeven]

Dark Matter defies physics, that's true, but that doesn't make it omnipotent. You assume that Kakine can create Dark Matter with any properties he likes, but this was never stated anywhere.

My theory is that Dark Matter has fixed properties that Kakine cannot change. Dark Matter may mess with physics, but the way it messes with physics is predetermined and immutable. Take his stunt of turning sunlight into death rays. The fact that sunlight diffracted through Dark Matter becomes harmful radiation might be a fixed property of Dark Matter. He could not, for instance, make the diffracted light taste like strawberries instead, because that is not a property of Dark Matter.

This would explain why Accelerator can match Dark Matter wings with his own Tornado Wings. Kakine can't simply make his Dark Matter immune to wind, that is not a feat that is within reach of its properties.

this is a interesting point but as long as they not state anything about dark matter except his "unknown powers" i will call every fight kakine is loosing: BS
hence, dark matter can even recreate a f*cking holistic esper, the rules of it must be really expandable....

Othinus isn't also absolute either.

and boring (you forgot to write this XD )

[Birdway]

All magic defies the rules of the world. Grimoires just do it better than magicians because their knowledge is more concentrated. Even so, they don't depart from the rules of normal magic, they just exploit them to the maximum extent.

That knowledge alone doesn't place you in the territory of a Magic God, or even a half Magic God. The synopsis of Volume NT10 all but confirms that you need a special ritual to seal the deal. Index's knowledge might let her figure out a way to become a Magic God, but for now she hasn't touched that territory yet.

"rules of normal magic" uh. There is magic that normal magicians can deal with and there is different, more outworldly magic as well. Those came from grimoires, their existence pollutes the world by just existing.

There is a process to become a magic god, for Othinus, it comes from NT10(which isn't on sales yet) and for Ollerus, Silvya said he had to master several grimoires. The knowledge opens a path to reach for power that goes beyond the world rules, to me she is on the gate for that level but isn't able to step beyond that due to the restrains she has on her.

No, Stiyl needs to provide Innocentius with mana, but he doesn't have to concentrate to do so after the spell has been cast. In Volume 1, Stiyl had Innocentius chase Touma around until he exited the range of the rune cards. He wasn't focusing on him for all of that scene. Furthermore, after Touma turned on the sprinklers but before Touma destroyed Innocentius for the last time, Stiyl had a moment of panic when he thought that Innocentius had been destroyed, indicating that he cannot tell if Innocentius has been destroyed, which should be impossible if he's always concentrating on it.

And didn't he panic because of he thought the sprinklers messed up with his cards? Then Innocentius appeared and regained confidence, what Styil did at that moment? He commanded Innocentius to kill Touma.

Sherry's example actually proves my point. The golem did not lose any power when in auto-pilot mode. Hence, focus does not affect power output, only control. It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade her attacks.

Unlike Innocentius that draws fire from nothing, Sherry gets the materials from the earth, the auto-pilot just follows the commands set by Sherry but she still needed to have a hold on her golem.

Also, Styil never fought Sherry.

The end of the line is that there is not a single line in the text that states that Pendex lost power output. All you have is your common sense, which doesn't apply here.

The output of her JP mode is the whole of her capabilities. Accuracy, speed, power, etc affects the efficiency overall, one doesn't works without the other.

What he had managed to do was buy some time.

And what do you think that time was for?

Fiamma could still use the 103000 grimoires even after Stiyl had pulled off the stunt with the restraint card. Your argument doesn't stand up. What blocked his acess must have come after that.

What you bolded proves what I say, she foccused oll of her capabilities on removing the restrain card. And that would leave nothing left to Fiamma.

Those events were happening at the same time, not one after other.

While Styil fought Index, Touma fought Fiamma and when Styil restrained Index, an change occurred for Fiamma at the same time.

Here's how I interpret this. The necessary information was in the grimoire library. The grimoire library was Index. In order to obey Carissa's orders, Laura Stuart helped Stiyl subdue Index. Since this lifted the burden on Stiyl of having to fight a berserk Pendex, this can be considered a reward for him. I seem to be drawing connections just fine.

The way I see it is that the leaders could provide that information just like the Patriarch, the former Pope and Laura could, and Laura doesn't needs to rely only on Index or else how would've done the times she is within AC?
Carrisa only forced to work with them since Laura didn't bother too much with the outcome of the war, it's was fine for her anyway. However it would be a problem is Carrisa starts rampaging agian on the Anglicans HQ.

We can just agree to disagree.

First of all, as others have argued before, Index's perfect memory is much more abnormal than eidetic memory. The real thing isn't as impressive as what Index has.

Second, Index's protections are a lot more hardcore than what Tecpatl had. This is Necessarius we're talking about; they have better resources than some Aztec cabal in Latin America. Tecpatl merely figured out how to use his grimoire without contacting it, which gave Etzali an opening to steal it from him. The layers of barriers on Index have been laid so thick they border on destroying her mind just as bad as the grimoires would.

Grimoires are not omnipotent. They need mana to function. Cut off their mana and for all the mind breaking knowledge they contain, they can't do anything. Index's barriers do exactly that.

Eidetic memory is just the formal name of perfect memory. Now you're admitting Index is impressive, why would she? Didn't you never wonder why Index doesn't has a back-up in case she dies? To this I say, it's because she is special.

No, Tecpatl himself said he prepared himself long ago for this time, since he took over the cabal. So no, you don't know how all of these protections works or what they're working for we can only makes a guess about the part and not the about the whole because we lack more information so far.

The mana comes from the life force, and Index knows how to refine it and any grimoire will search for a way to spread it's knowledge, not just that Index technically uses magic, do you really think the Force Chant and Spell Intercept works just because she says some words without any magic working behind??
Grimoires aren't omnipotent but like I said before they are like virus, indestructible, with no cure (Aureolus only worked on temporal cures when he worked for the RCC). If that wasn't the case any normal person could see the contents and walk away fine.

What part of her powers resembles magic? She isn't calling upon any supernatural setting to cause her miracles, nor was any such setting involved in her birth and re-fusion. Science isn't involved in her creation or powers either; she just happened to go through the curriculum later on.

Rather than a mix of science and magic, isn't it more reasonable to say she is a being like Frueline Kreutune, who doesn't belong to either side? Nowhere is it said that magic and science are the only supernatural powers in TAMNI.

The miracles. Miracles Fiamma himself said to use.

Oh no, he knew the experiment would succeed. He just happened to have a different definition of success than yours.

Mikoto could have achieved Level 6 for a few instants with support from exterior to anchor past 52%. After that, she would collapse and take AC down with her. Reasonable people like you and I would call this a failure. However, to a Kihara, this insane result would qualify as success.

Kihara also has no place for the word "sacrifice" on their book but Aleister isn't one who allows sacrifices that could affect his plans even the tiniest deviations is enough to put him on a stand still situation.

It's true Kihara are insane but what is a success for them isn't necessarily a sucess for Aleister, even more when he is far ahead of them.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Birdway

"rules of normal magic" uh. There is magic that normal magicians can deal with and there is different, more outworldly magic as well. Those came from grimoires, their existence pollutes the world by just existing.

What evidence do you have to suggest that Grimoires consist of otherworldly magic? None of the Grimoires we've seen have been able to do anything that defies the rules of magic as we understand them. They all enforce supernatural settings on the world using mana. It's just that, since they are filled with high quality magic arrays, they take the place of both incantation and spiritual items, allowing them to auto-cast magic without further preparation.

Besides, who do you think wrote those Grimoires? They didn't just spin themselves out of the aether, they were written by their authors and those authors were Magicians. You cannot write what you don't know, therefore at a fundamental level, Grimoires cannot exceed the realm of human knowledge. The only exception is the Book of Law, because it contains knowledge that came from Aiwass.

Originally Posted by Birdway

There is a process to become a magic god, for Othinus, it comes from NT10(which isn't on sales yet) and for Ollerus, Silvya said he had to master several grimoires. The knowledge opens a path to reach for power that goes beyond the world rules, to me she is on the gate for that level but isn't able to step beyond that due to the restrains she has on her.

The fact that Ollerus failed shows that the Grimoires alone are not enough. In all likelihood, he was going to attempt the same ritual as Othinus, but because he chose to save a cat instead, he was beaten to it. His powers likely stemmed from what parts of the ritual he did manage to perform, but we'll need to read NT10 to confirm it.

Index may be on the gate to that level, but there is a huge difference from being one step away from the territory of the Magic God and taking one step inside it. Although she is almost there, at the moment, she is still fully within the territory of man.

Originally Posted by Birdway

And didn't he panic because of he thought the sprinklers messed up with his cards? Then Innocentius appeared and regained confidence, what Styil did at that moment? He commanded Innocentius to kill Touma.

My point is, Innocentius can act autonomously without Stiyl needing to concentrate on it. he can to control it, but he doesn't need to as long as he provides it mana. You haven't denied my point.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Unlike Innocentius that draws fire from nothing, Sherry gets the materials from the earth, the auto-pilot just follows the commands set by Sherry but she still needed to have a hold on her golem.

It kept on moving after she was knocked out. I find that your definition of having a hold on something is very flexible.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Also, Styil never fought Sherry.

Sorry, I meant to say "It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade [Index's] attacks".

Originally Posted by Birdway

The output of her JP mode is the whole of her capabilities. Accuracy, speed, power, etc affects the efficiency overall, one doesn't works without the other.

Then according to your definition, I concede that her output decreased. However, according to my definition, which only takes power into account, it hasn't. My point is that he spells hit just as hard as normally.

We started arguing about this because you said that the fact that the wings are only as powerful as all her other spells was due to her being held back. However, if her wings were at full power, then regardless of how you define output, that confirms that her wings are the same as all her other spells.

Originally Posted by Birdway

And what do you think that time was for?

To keep on living another minute? To give Touma a chance to knock Fiamma out?

Originally Posted by Birdway

What you bolded proves what I say, she foccused oll of her capabilities on removing the restrain card. And that would leave nothing left to Fiamma.

Those events were happening at the same time, not one after other.

While Styil fought Index, Touma fought Fiamma and when Styil restrained Index, an change occurred for Fiamma at the same time.

Prove that they happened at the same time.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The way I see it is that the leaders could provide that information just like the Patriarch, the former Pope and Laura could, and Laura doesn't needs to rely only on Index or else how would've done the times she is within AC?
Carrisa only forced to work with them since Laura didn't bother too much with the outcome of the war, it's was fine for her anyway. However it would be a problem is Carrisa starts rampaging agian on the Anglicans HQ.

We can just agree to disagree.

The flaw with that argument is that it doesn't explain why Laura said she would "reward" Stiyl's efforts. Simply helping with the Star of Bethlem would have done nothing to improve his situation in any way.

I don't see why you find Laura subduing Index so unrealistic. TAMNI contains precedent for a situation such as this. Accelerator is much, much more powerful than Amata Kihara, yet the scientist managed to beat him to the curb because he is the one who developed his Vector Redirection power. He knew all the ins and outs of that level 5 and knew how to exploit them to win despite the difference in power. Similarly, Laura created the Index Librorum Prohibitum. If anyone can subdue a raging Pendex without a Remote, she can.

Also, more food for thought:

Originally Posted by Volume 1

“What will you gain by fighting?” Kanzaki seemed legitimately confused. “Even if you did defeat me, Necessarius awaits behind me. I may have said I was one of the top 10 magicians in London, but there are those stronger than me. …From the Church’s point of view, I am nothing more than a subordinate sent out to this Far East island nation.”

Originally Posted by Volume 17

“The one to stand before me should be, at the very least, the head of the Anglican Church,” Knight Leader said quietly as he cracked his knuckles. “No, the church simply does not have enough strength. I respect the royal family, but I stand above them when it comes to violence. Frankly speaking, you simply aren’t up to the task.”

This information can be taken to imply that Laura Stuart is more powerful than Kanzaki. With a few exceptions, TAMNI is a series that follows the Authority Equals Asskicking trope, so it would be very much in line with the rest of the series.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Eidetic memory is just the formal name of perfect memory. Now you're admitting Index is impressive, why would she? Didn't you never wonder why Index doesn't has a back-up in case she dies? To this I say, it's because she is special.

But in real life, true cases of long term Eidetic memory have never been confirmed, only short term cases. The subject is still slightly controversial. If Index is a perfect case of such memory, that would be enough to make her truly unique.

Besides, how do you know that Index doesn't have a back-up hidden in London's Tower? It would be a nice twist.

Originally Posted by Birdway

No, Tecpatl himself said he prepared himself long ago for this time, since he took over the cabal. So no, you don't know how all of these protections works or what they're working for we can only makes a guess about the part and not the about the whole because we lack more information so far.

Originally Posted by Volume 19

“The gap of experience between yours and mine is too large. Secondly, your protection measures when using the grimoire are too inferior. If you plan to use these grimoires as weapons, taking measures to prevent knowledge flowing in reverse is the most basic precaution.”

...

“… If you truly were suitable for the knowledge of that grimoire original, you would not have ended up like this. To prevent the contamination of the grimoire original, you took measures preventing it. Forget about spreading its knowledge, you wouldn’t even read the knowledge within it yourself. Did you believe that the grimoire would allow itself to become a ‘dead end’? …”

It seems pretty clear to me that all he did was stop the Grimoire from spreading its knowledge to his mind. We don't know how that protection works, but we know its effects. It is a lot less restrictive than Index's protection which violates even the mana and mind.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The mana comes from the life force, and Index knows how to refine it and any grimoire will search for a way to spread it's knowledge, not just that Index technically uses magic, do you really think the Force Chant and Spell Intercept works just because she says some words without any magic working behind??

Yes, yes I do, and there's nothing anywhere in the text that contradicts that view. To begin with, professional magicians were there when she used those techniques. If they weren't something you could do without magic, they would have noticed.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Grimoires aren't omnipotent but like I said before they are like virus, indestructible, with no cure (Aureolus only worked on temporal cures when he worked for the RCC). If that wasn't the case any normal person could see the contents and walk away fine.

To make an analogy to real viruses, there are ways to neutralize them. Many species of virus, most famously retroviruses like HIV, have the ability to insert their genetic material into the genomes of infected cells and thus persist indefinitely. However, evolution has found a way around that. By relegating the viral DNA into intronic sequences or tightly packed heterochromatin that never get expressed, they can force the virus into a dormant state from which it can never awaken. The human genome alone is littered with inactive viruses.

Index's protection systems do something similar. They force the Grimoires into a state where they are simply physically incapable of doing harm.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The miracles. Miracles Fiamma himself said to use.

The miracles Fiamma is talking about are obviously different from the ones Arisa can cause. For one, Fiamma was really full of himself. For all his talk about miracles, his magic did not make anyone else happy like what Arisa did. Furthermore, Arisa's power was not negated by IB, when the Holy Right was.

You're arguing that this is because she mixes in science with the magic, but the science part has nothing to do with her power, so it makes no sense. Besides, who ever said that miracles have to be magic?

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Inept Forum User

Apologies in advance for asking questions which are on subjects with little evidence available (and poorly written):

I'm going to ignore the endless debate going on and try to answer your questions that everyone basically ignored to the best of my knowledge.

*Aside from the two examples featured in the Amakusa SS, what pieces of folklore or mythology do you reckon could be classed as having 'fallen into the "cracks"'?

It's hard to tell what Kamachi had in mind with that. The closest thing related to that is probably the Aarne–Thompson fairy tale classification system, which was created specifically to help folklorists identify recurring motifs in tales.

Not sure it is related though.

*For the downloaded arsenal of the British Museum, most of the replicated spiritual items weren't given much description so it is difficult to guess what their identity and mechanics might be, but...are there any which anyone would be willing to venture a guess as to what they might be based on?

Well they could either be part of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom, or the Thirteen Treasures of the Island of Britain.

*Following on from the above, are there any particular spells in the series, of which we currently don't know the basis for, which people have theories/speculation concerning their basis?

Not that I know of.

*Regarding the satellite Xiuhcoatl, what do you reckon is its fuel setup?

sigh, right, I still have to read Railgun SS. I will have to get to it one of these days.

*Can you think of any pieces of potential bases, that could possibly be used for aspect/symbolic interference with regards to magical mechanics?

Not sure what you mean here. Could you clarify?

[Inept Forum User]

Originally Posted by allfictions

I'm going to ignore the endless debate going on and try to answer your questions that everyone basically ignored to the best of my knowledge.

It's hard to tell what Kamachi had in mind with that. The closest thing related to that is probably the Aarne–Thompson fairy tale classification system, which was created specifically to help folklorists identify recurring motifs in tales.

Not sure it is related though.

Well they could either be part of the Crown Jewels of the United Kingdom, or the Thirteen Treasures of the Island of Britain.

Not that I know of.

sigh, right, I still have to read Railgun SS. I will have to get to it one of these days.

Not sure what you mean here. Could you clarify?

Thanks, allfictions.

2) Any idea what the one which creates hands that drag foes into the earth might be based off?

4)

Spoiler for Xiuhcoatl:

The Xiuhcoatl, the ultimate weapon of the Return of the Winged One, consists of a satellite and several surface craft. The surface craft act as antennas so the satellite can aim an orbital bombardment. What I was wondering was kind of fuel set-up the satellite might have (it needs at least some magical fuel to launch that magic attack), be it an onboard power source, mana transmissions from the surface, extrapolation from the external environment or a mixture between them.

5) Most magic seen so far involves the use of symbols of various kinds. What I was wondering was if there were certain pieces of folklore, legends, religion etc, the stuff that is often used as a base for magic, which could perhaps be used to construct spells which could interfere with the way other spells work, specifically regarding interfering with their symbolic aspects (e.g. preventing opponents from exploiting a symbolic weakness, bypassing or altering a symbolic condition to a certain extent etc)

[LevelSeven]

5) Most magic seen so far involves the use of symbols of various kinds. What I was wondering was if there were certain pieces of folklore, legends, religion etc, the stuff that is often used as a base for magic, which could perhaps be used to construct spells which could interfere with the way other spells work, specifically regarding interfering with their symbolic aspects (e.g. preventing opponents from exploiting a symbolic weakness, bypassing or altering a symbolic condition to a certain extent etc)

Isnt this the way magicians are fighting?
kanzaki used a symbol which allowed her to stay over the waters of ymirs ocean....
I dont know if their is a all powerful spell for that but the way which the magicians are fighting is exactly like that.... find the weakness and the spell is useless....
this makes me curious: could they create spells and interfere into esper powers? Like: creating a impossible "room" where vectors dont exist.... could they take the "weapon" of the espers?

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

Isnt this the way magicians are fighting?
kanzaki used a symbol which allowed her to stay over the waters of ymirs ocean....
I dont know if their is a all powerful spell for that but the way which the magicians are fighting is exactly like that.... find the weakness and the spell is useless....
this makes me curious: could they create spells and interfere into esper powers? Like: creating a impossible "room" where vectors dont exist.... could they take the "weapon" of the espers?

If such a thing is at all possible, only a Majin could pull it off. Normal magicians wouldn't do it due to two factors:

1) Magic and Science Have Different Perspectives

Take the phenomenon of fire. From a Magic perspective, fire is one of four elements that make up the world. From a Science perspective, there are 92+ elements and fire isn't one of them; fire is a chemical reaction. Although a Magician casting a fire spell and a Pyrokinetic Esper may be able to produce the same result, the underlying principles are completely different. Methods to prevent the casting of magical fire would be unable to interfere with Esper fire.

Things get even more sketchy with more abstract scientific principles. Take your theoretical "vectorless" room. How do you even begin to build it? You would need an appropriate legend. Let me ask you, do you know of any legends that mention vectors? I didn't think so. The concept of vectors does not exist in Magic, so Magic cannot interfere with them directly.

2) Messing with Science is Dangerous

Say you want to make Misaka powerless. You would have to create an area entirely without electromagnetism. Also, since physics has determined that electromagnetism and the weak interaction are both aspects of the same force, you would also have to remove the weak interaction.

So yeah, all you have to do is remove two of the fundamental interactions that underly all of physics. Assuming you could somehow do this, what could possibly go wrong? Well, for starters, all matter would fall apart on into its composing subatomic particles, because those forces kept molecules and atoms together. Hopefully this would destroy the preparations you made for your spell and interrupt it, because what happens next would be even worse.

Without the electroweak force, you're left with the strong interaction and, more to the point, gravitation. Under the force of gravity, all those loose subatomic particles you just freed will instantly start falling downwards. Normally electromagnetic interactions would prevent them from squishing together too closely, but without them, nothing will stop the matter within your spell's area from compressing itself to an absurd density, eventually creating a series of black holes. These holes would be too small to persist and would release the equivalent of their mass in energy by Hawking Radiation in less than a millisecond. The resulting explosion could easily outdo the combined nuclear arsenal of every country in the world. In fact, it wouldn't be hard to outdo the impact that ended the dinosaurs hundreds of times over either. Congratulations, you just destroyed all life on Earth.

So yeah, messing with Science is dangerous. Even if you could do it, you really shouldn't.