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Old 2020-06-29, 01:08   Link #241
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
The objective of a test is not to be passable by anyone. It's to weed out the unqualified who do not possess the desired qualities. Also, I'm pretty sure executions aren't voluntary like the test was. If you wanted my car, then it's my right to name my price, no matter how unreasonable. Naturally, you are under no obligation to take the offer. But say I did give a fair price and you were still unable to pay because you were poor. How is it unfair? Your inability to meet my demand does not constitute unfairness. Similarly, Rachel's desire exceeded her station and reach which resulted in a near impossible test.
Maybe "execution" isn't the right word either, but my point is, if a guy points a gun at you and say to get off his lawn, he's not testing your ability to dodge bullets.

And however she managed it, Rachel proved worthy of getting to the 3rd Floor, so how valid was the fish test anyway?
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Old 2020-06-29, 22:41   Link #242
orion
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe "execution" isn't the right word either, but my point is, if a guy points a gun at you and say to get off his lawn, he's not testing your ability to dodge bullets.

And however she managed it, Rachel proved worthy of getting to the 3rd Floor, so how valid was the fish test anyway?

It was valid in its own way. it identified Bam as a problem. Rachel only "passed" because they needed Bam out of the way and Bam trusted her. You can only go so far by using others.
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Old 2020-06-30, 00:09   Link #243
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
It was valid in its own way. it identified Bam as a problem. Rachel only "passed" because they needed Bam out of the way and Bam trusted her. You can only go so far by using others.
I don't want to get too spoilerish, but:
1. You'd be surprised how far you can go by using others.
2. Baam isn't a problem so much as an opportunity.
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Old 2020-06-30, 06:33   Link #244
orion
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't want to get too spoilerish, but:
1. You'd be surprised how far you can go by using others.
2. Baam isn't a problem so much as an opportunity.

I don't mean to be spoilerish either but "problem" is dependent on who's perspective you are viewing.
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Old 2020-06-30, 17:52   Link #245
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
I don't mean to be spoilerish either but "problem" is dependent on who's perspective you are viewing.
From the POV of the guys who pulled strings, including Headon, to get Baam where he is: kidnapped and not murdered.
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Old 2020-06-30, 19:46   Link #246
bakato
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
but if i say: that is my price... however i "know a way you can get "that money!!!"????

this is how you can "manipulate choices" and circustances, while for you and and maybe most of the peoples we would not accept that "other way" others peoples see on this the "only way they can get your car and that is how manipulation and corruption come in play, if you know how "to push" someone to do what you want in the "right way", knowing the person weakness and "price" you can make it and make the "choices no matter how many options you have be only "A" even if you have all the others letters, because in the end only A will be the "plausible one", based on your "mindplay game".
But the person would still have to agree by their own agency. Rachel's own desires are the driving force behind her choice to take the offer and that falls on her alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe "execution" isn't the right word either, but my point is, if a guy points a gun at you and say to get off his lawn, he's not testing your ability to dodge bullets.

And however she managed it, Rachel proved worthy of getting to the 3rd Floor, so how valid was the fish test anyway?
No, the test was to overcome the fear of bullets. And you're not forced to stay on the law.

No she didn't. The whole point was that she wasn't worthy of climbing the tower, but they gave her a pass for the purpose to taking Baam. This doesn't mean she's worthy. It just means she's useful.
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Old 2020-07-01, 00:13   Link #247
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
No, the test was to overcome the fear of bullets.
No, because if you overcome your fear of bullets and bravely take a step forward, you get shot and die. You don't get to stay on the lawn.

Quote:
And you're not forced to stay on the law.
Just as Rachel could refuse the test, and did.

Quote:
No she didn't. The whole point was that she wasn't worthy of climbing the tower, but they gave her a pass for the purpose to taking Baam. This doesn't mean she's worthy. It just means she's useful.
According to what standards?

She passed the test. She's worthy. You may not like what they're testing for, but it is what it is.
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Old 2020-07-01, 07:53   Link #248
bakato
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, because if you overcome your fear of bullets and bravely take a step forward, you get shot and die. You don't get to stay on the lawn.


Just as Rachel could refuse the test, and did.



According to what standards?

She passed the test. She's worthy. You may not like what they're testing for, but it is what it is.
So what? You can't argue about the outcomes of choices you never made. What about Baam. When he was given the test, he didn't know Yuri would help him and he didn't care. Why? Because trying and dying is better than giving up.

The same standards we just talked about. She didn't pass Headon's test. She made a deal and the authorities conspired to help her pass. That doesn't change the fact that she was never qualified and needs others to give her handouts. The test she "passed" was nothing more than a show to fake Baam's death. They weren't testing for anything.
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Old 2020-07-01, 08:07   Link #249
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
So what? You can't argue about the outcomes of choices you never made. What about Baam. When he was given the test, he didn't know Yuri would help him and he didn't care. Why? Because trying and dying is better than giving up.
For most people, people without plot armor, it's not a test, it's a catch-22. You either lack the courage to be worthy, or the life, which is also a necessity to climb.

Quote:
The same standards we just talked about. She didn't pass Headon's test. She made a deal and the authorities conspired to help her pass. That doesn't change the fact that she was never qualified and needs others to give her handouts. The test she "passed" was nothing more than a show to fake Baam's death. They weren't testing for anything.
They were testing to see if she was ruthless enough to betray Baam. Is it just an excuse? Have they bent the rules to serve their own purposes? Yes. But my point is, so was the first test. Even more so the first test, in fact. You can't claim that one was valid and proved something, while all subsequent ones, which she did pass, weren't.
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Old 2020-07-01, 15:35   Link #250
orion
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
For most people, people without plot armor, it's not a test, it's a catch-22. You either lack the courage to be worthy, or the life, which is also a necessity to climb.



They were testing to see if she was ruthless enough to betray Baam. Is it just an excuse? Have they bent the rules to serve their own purposes? Yes. But my point is, so was the first test. Even more so the first test, in fact. You can't claim that one was valid and proved something, while all subsequent ones, which she did pass, weren't.
She wasn't being tested at all. They already predicted the outcome -Headon read her and knew what she was capable of. The only one who is being tested is Bam.
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Old 2020-07-01, 15:46   Link #251
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
She wasn't being tested at all. They already predicted the outcome -Headon read her and knew what she was capable of. The only one who is being tested is Bam.
Whom Headon also already read and predicted the outcome.

The truth is that neither of them was really tested. They were manipulated so that a group of people would get what they want.

Is Baam kinder, braver and stronger than Rachel? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean he "deserves" to climb the Tower while she doesn't? Well, it really depends on what you mean by "deserve", but I don't expect Rachel is the only cowardly asshole on the way up.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2020-07-01 at 15:58.
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Old 2020-07-01, 19:57   Link #252
bakato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
For most people, people without plot armor, it's not a test, it's a catch-22. You either lack the courage to be worthy, or the life, which is also a necessity to climb.



They were testing to see if she was ruthless enough to betray Baam. Is it just an excuse? Have they bent the rules to serve their own purposes? Yes. But my point is, so was the first test. Even more so the first test, in fact. You can't claim that one was valid and proved something, while all subsequent ones, which she did pass, weren't.
Baam's choice to take the test had nothing to do with plot armor. You keep bringing this up and it's not relevant. You compare their performance and scores, but Rachel didn't perform at all.

They were not testing her. Faking Baam's death was the outcome they wanted. Her performance and results on subsequent tests are irrelevant because it wasn't about results. She didn't pass or fail Headon's test. She didn't take it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Whom Headon also already read and predicted the outcome.

The truth is that neither of them was really tested. They were manipulated so that a group of people would get what they want.

Is Baam kinder, braver and stronger than Rachel? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean he "deserves" to climb the Tower while she doesn't? Well, it really depends on what you mean by "deserve", but I don't expect Rachel is the only cowardly asshole on the way up.
It doesn't matter whether Headon foresaw the outcomes. They both had the same chance in the end.

Baam was tested and he passed with flying colors. Whether they were manipulated doesn't change the fact that he was worthy and Rachel wasn't.

Comparing Rachel to the other regulars is an insult to them. Every single one of them is risking their lives when they take a test. The first test on the second floor was to kill each other. They may run and hide but they're in the arena of their own choice, knowing full well they may die. Rachel proved she wasn't. For all her desire to see the stars, she couldn't even risk her life.
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Old 2020-07-02, 00:56   Link #253
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Baam's choice to take the test had nothing to do with plot armor.
I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that if Rachel had been as brave as Baam, she wouldn't have "deserved to climb". She'd have been dead.

Quote:
You keep bringing this up and it's not relevant. You compare their performance and scores, but Rachel didn't perform at all.

They were not testing her. Faking Baam's death was the outcome they wanted. Her performance and results on subsequent tests are irrelevant because it wasn't about results. She didn't pass or fail Headon's test. She didn't take it at all.



It doesn't matter whether Headon foresaw the outcomes. They both had the same chance in the end.
Haha, no. You act as if all she had to do was get in there to pass. That courage was all that was needed. That isn't true at all.

Quote:

Baam was tested and he passed with flying colors. Whether they were manipulated doesn't change the fact that he was worthy and Rachel wasn't.

Comparing Rachel to the other regulars is an insult to them. Every single one of them is risking their lives when they take a test. The first test on the second floor was to kill each other. They may run and hide but they're in the arena of their own choice, knowing full well they may die. Rachel proved she wasn't. For all her desire to see the stars, she couldn't even risk her life.
I'm pretty sure Rachel has no less courage than Parakewl. The only thing she refused was Headon's test which wasn't one in the first place.
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Old 2020-07-04, 09:09   Link #254
orion
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post


Haha, no. You act as if all she had to do was get in there to pass. That courage was all that was needed. That isn't true at all.
In a way it is. She just had to get to the 2nd floor test with the help they provided, not outrightly fail the lighthouse tests, manipulate Bam to be in an area to be easily killed and then "kill him".
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Old 2020-07-04, 09:26   Link #255
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
In a way it is. She just had to get to the 2nd floor test with the help they provided, not outrightly fail the lighthouse tests, manipulate Bam to be in an area to be easily killed and then "kill him".
Hm, what? We were talking about the first floor test. The one she refused to take.
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