Attack on Titan - Episode 57 Discussion / Poll

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh right. For some reason it didn't click with me that Paradis Island is the same island as Eren's country. I guess I just thought that the sea was closer to the outer wall which they couldn't see from where they were. I guess that explains why the Owl attacked the boat though I'm hoping there's a good reason why didn't do that much sooner.

What is the point of destroying the boat?
The Marleyan will just send more, and now they know that there is a Titan hostile to them.
I believe that Kruger's action is exactly what triggers the Marleyan's attack.

Originally Posted by Haak

But man, these Marleyan's attack on Eldians are pretty damn coordinated. I guess I can understand why Grisha felt the need to attack the royals the way they did. This is a nation hellbent on waging war against the Eldians and have now killed his second wife and the royals aren't doing a damn thing. I really do hope the royals have damn good reason for being this inactive because its starting to look like another piece of right wing commentary divorced from reality (Japan is currently debating with itself on its pacifist philosophy).

You have to remember that the attack began with the arrival of the Colossal Titan.
Before that, life was peaceful so there was no need for them to do anything.
After that, the last king, err queen, was immediately killed off so we don't know how she would react to the attack.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

What is the point of destroying the boat?
The Marleyan will just send more, and now they know that there is a Titan hostile to them.
I believe that Kruger's action is exactly what triggers the Marleyan's attack.

To stop anyone who witnessed Krugers actions from getting back and reporting on it? Then he go the Marleyans and claim he was the only survivor of an Eldian attack and they would be none the wiser. Or maybe he went with Grisha to the walls. I guess we'll find out later next week.

You have to remember that the attack began with the arrival of the Colossal Titan.
Before that, life was peaceful so there was no need for them to do anything.
After that, the last king, err queen, was immediately killed off so we don't know how she would react to the attack.

Fair enough, the fact that the Marleyans were constantly sending titans over probably meant little to the royals who were safe behind the walls but it's still an act of aggression that lead to long term security problems and should've been dealt with beforehand (if possible). I doubt the wall breaches would've been as devastating as they were if there weren't a load of mindless titans doing most of the damage. The show made a point in the first episode about how Eren's country was far too reliant on the walls to defend them before the wall even got breached.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

You have to remember that the attack began with the arrival of the Colossal Titan.
Before that, life was peaceful so there was no need for them to do anything.
After that, the last king, err queen, was immediately killed off so we don't know how she would react to the attack.

Though in this very episode they explained that Marley was planning an invasion to Paradis for the purpose of getting the founder titan's power and the island's resources, this is the very reason Grisha thought of hi-jacking their project by infiltrating Zeke.

Krueger or not, the plan was already in motion.

Originally Posted by Haak

Fair enough, the fact that the Marleyans were constantly sending titans over probably meant little to the royals who were safe behind the walls but it's still an act of aggression that lead to long term security problems and should've been dealt with beforehand (if possible).

The existence of mindless titans roaming outside the walls is something that furthered whatever reason the Kings had to keep people isolated. In spite of having manipulated everyone's memory there were still people that wanted to see the outside world. For decades the continued failures of the scout legion served as a reminder that trying to go outside was just pointless. If you remember, at the start of the story the scout legion used to be ridiculed by the main population, they were considered fools, because every single one of them was a volunteer. It was only after wall Maria had fallen that things changed.
So this is probably why the Kings didn't act against Marley throwing mindless titans at them, they were actually fine with that.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Mentioned by who?
Someone who is not a king does not know what happens in a king's head. He only speculates.
It's possible that they just changed their minds after knowing the truth. Simple like that.

Yep, them getting overridden by the will of the first King is just Rod's opinion. Both his brother and his daughter changed a lot after inheriting the Founding Titan, but that's a given when it comes with centuries of memories (look at Eren in this ep, his speech pattern changed after experiencing his father's memories). During his talks with Kenny, it didn't seem like Rod's brother was taken over or brainwashed. Frieda was also still herself, what with her secretly visiting Historia.

I think it's more likely learning the whole truth, whatever it is, turned their whole world upside down.

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh right. For some reason it didn't click with me that Paradis Island is the same island as Eren's country. I guess I just thought that the sea was closer to the outer wall which they couldn't see from where they were. I guess that explains why the Owl attacked the boat though I'm hoping there's a good reason why didn't do that much sooner.

As a manga reader I do some minor spoilers to my friends (they don't mind minor ones) so at around this time I told them what was after the third wall; a fourth wall. So the wall we saw in this episode that is close to the beach is not the third wall but a fourth wall.

Tho I managed to piss off my friends quite a bit when I told them that mikasa died (relax it was before the current point (it was a lie :P) )

Originally Posted by Haak

I really do hope the royals have damn good reason for being this inactive because its starting to look like another piece of right wing commentary divorced from reality (Japan is currently debating with itself on its pacifist philosophy).

I finally understand why some people mean by right wing in tha AoT context, I was thinking of something dumb, glad to see that was not the case.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Haak

So Eren’s country are a race called Eldians. Ironically a country that is now besieged by Titans was originally the founder and user of these Titans. And apparently they practised oppression and “eugenics” but of course that was ancient history and the King’s shying away from conflict ultimately led them to be oppressed…okay, it’s kinda hard to ignore some pretty obvious far right victim complex tropes here. It’s hard to ignore how despicably evil these Marlyans are and how cruel they to the people they oppress and the Eldian’s only crime is having a dark past in ancient history is kind of laughable if it’s meant to be analogous to the Japanese who supported Nazi’s in WW2. Also kinda hard to ignore that the Eldians fled to a small island on the East...

I'm not a source reader and I don't follow Isayama news, but is there any indication other than this setting in the story that he is deliberately trying to send such a message? Just because it's possible to read between the lines to come to such a conclusion doesn't mean the author intended it to be read that way.

As an example, let's bring this interpretation to the extreme. Eldians appearing meek and powerless normally but having the potential to become powerful titans capable of ruling the world is really describing the Japanese race, alluding to how their military used to and still has the potential to be a titan of the world despite the conception that Asians are physically weaker than Whites/Blacks. However, fearing their potential, the ruthless Western outsiders have been turning the Eldian people against their own by injecting fluids (ideas, corrupting influence) into innocent civilians, causing them become mindless monsters that "eat" their own kind and preventing those seeking the sea (conquest, imperialism) from rising up again. The only way to break this cycle is to obtain the Founding Titan power held within Paradis, which represents the Japanese emperor's ability to unite the race towards one will. It is also being seeked by invaders (immigrants), whose conquest along the way has been destroying the great Walls representing the cultural heritage and traditions of the people.

Whew, isn't it fun reading between the lines!

Originally Posted by Haak

To stop anyone who witnessed Krugers actions from getting back and reporting on it? Then he go the Marleyans and claim he was the only survivor of an Eldian attack and they would be none the wiser. Or maybe he went with Grisha to the walls. I guess we'll find out later next week.

I thought the Kruger titan kinda looks like the Eren titan, with the only notable difference being the length of the hair. Same flashing green eyes and general body build. My theory is that somehow Grisha managed to transfer the Kruger titan to Eren, so I doubt Kruger will be going back.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

I'm not a source reader and I don't follow Isayama news, but is there any indication other than this setting in the story that he is deliberately trying to send such a message? Just because it's possible to read between the lines to come to such a conclusion doesn't mean the author intended it to be read that way.

As an example, let's bring this interpretation to the extreme. Eldians appearing meek and powerless normally but having the potential to become powerful titans capable of ruling the world is really describing the Japanese race, alluding to how their military used to and still has the potential to be a titan of the world despite the conception that Asians are physically weaker than Whites/Blacks. However, fearing their potential, the ruthless Western outsiders have been turning the Eldian people against their own by injecting fluids (ideas, corrupting influence) into innocent civilians, causing them become mindless monsters that "eat" their own kind and preventing those seeking the sea (conquest, imperialism) from rising up again. The only way to break this cycle is to obtain the Founding Titan power held within Paradis, which represents the Japanese emperor's ability to unite the race towards one will. It is also being seeked by invaders (immigrants), whose conquest along the way has been destroying the great Walls representing the cultural heritage and traditions of the people.

Whew, isn't it fun reading between the lines!

You had me at the first sentence but when you start saying things like "Injections are a metaphor or corrupting ideas" that's when it starts to feel a bit flimsy.

Yes you can Fanwank anything to however you want it to be. But not all opinions are equal and you have to evaluate the weight of the evidence presented to you.

For example, Isayama showed Grisha and his sister wearing armbands and living in segregated areas controlled by police in a Germanic setting. I would find it incredibly unlikely that Isayama just thought of this in a vacuum and didn't know about Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. I'm sure you see how much easier it is to see that this is meant to be a direct allusion as opposed to interpreting injections as a metaphor for corrupting ideas.

I'm not saying my interpretation is clear cut. It could very well be wrong and i can accept that. But when I gave my interpretation I made an effort to give all the details within the show that would explain why. I make a very strong effort to avoid Fanwank as a general rule of thumb. I hate Fanwanking. But at the same time stories also tell messages and it's important to listen to what the story is trying to say.

[Anh_Minh]

I can definitely see the Eldians as Jews under Nazi Germany comparisons.

It's the rest of it I'm less sure about. Paradis Eldians as the Japanese whose past glory as Imperial Japan was stolen and who must recover it? I could be wrong, but I don't think it's what the author's going for.

[Haak]

I never said that though...

[Anh_Minh]

Then I'm confused again!

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Haak

For example, Isayama showed Grisha and his sister wearing armbands and living in segregated areas controlled by police in a Germanic setting. I would find it incredibly unlikely that Isayama just thought of this in a vacuum and didn't know about Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. I'm sure you see how much easier it is to see that this is meant to be a direct allusion as opposed to interpreting injections as a metaphor for corrupting ideas.

The injection metaphor was a outcome of some strenuous mental gymnastics, but if you ask me I thought it was a pretty clever twist.

I see your point about Eldians being allusions to the Jewish under Nazi Germany. But then I hear your other interpretation about Eldians actually being allusions to the far-right portraying themselves as victims of modern left-wing oppression, and that to me feels a lot more out there than I can accept. It's also possible that I'm touchier than normal, because I have seen people I personally know go around warning everyone to boycott AoT because of supposed Nazi-apologist messages, which I don't see, not yet.

[Haak]

Well it's also possible that I'm more sensitive than normal because I've seen this sort of thing in a lot of other right wing circles, but like I said earlier I haven't pulled my finger on the trigger just yet. The fact that the author portrayed the Reiss King as respectable as he did leaves me a bit unsure of what Isayama is trying to say.

But I have no doubt that Isayama IS trying to say something. Collectively speaking there are far too many "coincidences" for this not to be the case. Japanese foreign policy has in recent times been a lot about tensions with neighbouring countries because of historical crimes and a debate on Japan's pacifist stance. These are mirrored in Eldians being persecuted for ancient history and a historical king that retreated and opted for non-aggression against the Marleyans. This combined with the very patriotic slant towards the story's military, the portrayal of Nazi policies and the depiction of respectable characters being based historical Japanese military figures makes it hard for me to believe that a story like this can include so much politics and NOT be making political statements.

[Anh_Minh]

"He's trying to say something, but we don't know what" is something I can agree with. But I'm not sure we'll know till almost the very end.

[Mad Pierrot]

Guys, I don't think we should jump to conclusions about if there is an offensive portrayal of real life considering it's been only one episode where we learned this. Heck, Tomino admitted that the chaos of the first Gundam series from the late 70s was based on World War I with the guys from Zeon being... well. So I mean it's better to wait and see what message is supposed to see this series is sending.

[Haak]

Guys, nobody is jumping to conclusions.

It's a discussion thread. Let's use it as one.

[Guido]

I'm not going to resume the old arguments from previous comments rather to express my personal interpretation on how I see the setting of Attack on Titan has surprisingly expanded, given that the revelations unearthed from the basement drastically have altered the game change whether for good or for bad.

While history is written by the victors and the side of the story from the losers gets concealed for posterity or fades into oblivion, the cold hard fact is that human nature has never changed and conflicts through war and/or violence for domination as the end game are proof of that bloody history.

Who is to say that Marley exaggerated or revised history to paint Eldia in such a deplorable reputation?

Who is to say that the rest of humanity (without exception) wants the Eldians wiped out as Sergeant Major Gross replied to Grisha?

Who is to say that the founder Ymir Fritz delivered wealth and abundance to the Eldians when Grisha could have had extrapolated the data from the records he deciphered with his own personal interpretations and feelings?

Facts are immutable, but the truth is not given that people can hold the monopoly over by declaring how self-righteous they are while condemning others who do not agree with their opinions.
The latter has happened everywhere in each previous century.

The facts within the story and setting of Attack on Titan are:
1. Fay Yeager was killed and mutilated by Gross and his sons for sport and recreation. The justification was she was an Eldian that went into a no space for Eldians zone without a permit.
That was just a pretense for Gross to justify himself legally as the other Marleyans most likely wouldn't have bat an eye over the issue but be gladly overjoyed to themselves for what Gross did had the truth gotten leaked into the public.
Gross did what he did because he had power to abuse it freely to his own discretion as a means to vent his desire to dominate and inflict misery upon a helpless, little girl.

2. In a mainland continent, the nation of Marley keeps Eldians confined into interment zones and/or ghettos letting them live as third class citizens.
The irony is, in spite of spewing their toxic rhetoric and hatred against the oppressed Eldians due to the Eldia Empire transgressions and genocide policies against the Marleyans in the past, the Marleyans still turn Eldians into mindless titans for two reasons:
a) As seen with the potential insurrection of the Restorationists and the Ymir cult, for capital punishment way worse than death to ship any troublemakers, then turn them into titans, and let them roam Paradis for eternity.
- They kill two birds with one stone with this approach as Marley can continue to exert control and dominate the Eldians living in the continent as well as keeping the Eldians living within the Walls caged with the transformed titans released into the island.
b) Just as Grisha explained his opinions on Marley designing an attempt to obtain the Founding Titan from Paradis, at the world's stage Marley is a nation competing against other countries for resources in order to exert their hegemony and domination in global affairs. Hence, it makes sense for Marley to treat Eldians as assets to be turned into titans for war power to be used in the battle field.