Higurashi Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by I<3killerloli's

I have a few theories about this episode:

The Logical Theory (or as close to logical as you can get in Higurashi)

Spoiler:

Keiichi didn't kill Teppei at all. He actually went to Watanagashi and the murder was all in his head. He was dillusional. The rain alos doesn't coincide with Watanagashi, so it was in his head.

The Less Logical Theory

Spoiler:

The person at Watanagashi was Satoshi, who has been behind this episode all along. The dug up body has too many theories for me to guess what happened.

The WTF theory

Spoiler:

This entire series is occuring in multiple dimensions and the dimensions are starting to overlap, resulting in paradoxes such as these were there are two Keiichi's at differnt times.

One more thing, spoilers for the next archs theories and game:

Spoiler:

I hear that this may be the last time we see Keiichi as main charcter, as the other archs are told from other people's perspectives.

hmm

Spoiler:

for your last spoiler..that may not be such a bad thing...i've personally gotten sick of keiichi

[Mr. Guy]

I submit my own theories based off I<3killerloli's format of "Logical", "Less Logical", and "WTF". These are all based off my initial impressions of the the latest episode, minus any TIPS and without knowledge from reading this thread

Spoiler for Logical Theory:

Everyone knows what Keiichi did and are trying to cover for him. When I heard what they were saying to him in the episode, this was my first impression. It sounded oddly like they were trying to force an alibi into his head (explaining what they were doing in great detail, etc). Keiichi is perfectly sane.

Takano is NOT dead (in fact, I believe she never dies in any scenario) and is probably one of the masterminds behind all of this. She probably killed Tomitake-san and buried him in Keiichi’s first hole. She later moves the sign, blah blah, and Keiichi digs another and dumps Teppei in. She’s watching throughout all this and picks him up, talks to him, goes back and takes Teppei’s corpse out and burns it up in the hills. She had previously forged her dental records so it looked like it was her that was burned.

Spoiler for Less Logical theory:

That was Satoshi returned, with dyed brown hair, at the festival. He looks vaguely similar to Keiichi and is probably the best candidate for a doppelganger. Assuming, of course, that Keiichi isn’t off his rocker.

Spoiler for WTF Theory:

It’s all an extremely deep, Scooby Doo-esque coverup to hide the true crime of Himamizawa… extensive pot/other illegal substance growing. Yes, you read right. Everyone’s a pothead. This extensive network is being funded almost completely by the Sonozaki family with the clinic lead by Irie-san being the front for it all. This is also why the Sonozaki family was so adamant about not allowing the dam to be constructed. Had the dam been constructed, then all of their plants (grown in the Onigafuchi Marsh) would have been wiped out and the Sonozaki family would have lost a valuable source of income. So in order to make sure that the dam was never completed they played off the curse of Oyashiro-sama as a “Scooby Doo” kind of deterrent.

Irie-san, being a doctor, has extensive knowledge in the use of lab equipment as well as chemicals so it’s only natural for him to be the lead “creator” of these illegal substances. Takano, being the babe she is, naturally is able to bum a few of these “creations” off Irie (hence the droopy eyes, she’s always high) in return for enforcing the Oyashiro-sama coverup story. Tomitake is either one of the main dealers from the city or accidentally managed to cop a few pictures of the Hinamizawa crop. He was killed by Takano either because he learned their secret, or because of some internal strife within the ring.

Takano is also either the woman Teppei went off with or someone with some sort of relation to Satako. Either way it allows her some sort of connection to one of the group’s main test subjects for some of their more potent “creations”. Teppei’s abuse may have also involved injecting her with certain drugs (hence her dilated pupils). Satako’s uncle is simply a pawn of Takano, as was Satako’s aunt when she was alive (Takano’s influence then could have possibly came from maybe being a third sister/other aunt to Satako/having an affair with Teppei during marriage).

Rena was a similar case to Satako but was probably one of the earlier test subjects to a more potent drug. Possibly a high dose of the chemicals that Irie was talking about giving to Keiichi? Mion also takes a similar drug for either recreational purposes (she’s the big cheese) or because they were forced on to her because of someone higher up in the organization. Either way, these drugs are what gives them their odd personality issues.

And that was much too long even for a joke theory

[Sinestra]

Well what to say about this episode. hummmm WTF the only thing i am sure of anymore is that Higrashi will eventually give me a blood clot in my head. I am pretty sure that Keiichi is very dillusional at this point his eyes thorugh the entire episode were just creepy. I believe that that he did attend the ferstival everything else was in his head

[Shizen]

We see the whole thing from Keiichis point of view. So his strange eyes are maybe a delusion too
Wait, Keiichi, can't know, how his eyes looked anyway

[Redbeard]

First of all, I have to say that I really don't know what to make of the recent turn of events in this arc. Every time I start to sort things out, they throw one of those wonderfully insane plot twists that I like so much. It's kinda like trying to win a game of Battleship when your opponent keeps moving his ships between every shot .

But anyway, back to my point. I thought the issue with the two holes was fairly interesting. I suppose a spoiler tag would be appropriate for the rest of my rambling though.

Spoiler for My musings on the two holes and the events that night, obvious spoilers from the last two eps if it matters...:

At first I thought ol' K1 mixed up the grave's location. However upon close observation and rewatching of episode 11, this is not the case. He DID dig up the right hole. In fact, when he went to bury Teppei in 11, he had to go get the shovel and if you will all remember, he actually remembered the first hole then and went to fill it back in. The problem was our poor friend couldn't find it again. He went to the exact spot he dug it and it was gone! This scene was rather short and easily glossed over by the recent episode, but has a great deal of importance nonetheless. After all of K1's careful preparation, something happened to that first hole before he murdered Teppei(or at least before he imagined that he did it depending on what you believe happened). I'm not really sure what could have happened to that hole yet, unfortunately. I've yet to take any of my assumptions in that direction. Oh, and one last interesting observation. I noticed NONE of the leaves or that huge branch present in 12 when he was digging up the hole again.

Oh, and I, too, decided to research the two drugs last night after watching episode 12. I have to say, glad someone else thought of that too. I found the same thing that steelbound found out about the Isomytal/Amobarbital, but I also found an interesting article about Brovarin, aka Bromisoval. I highlighted the more interesting pieces of the article. The symptoms should all be able to be wiki'ed, I recall none that I couldn't find.

BROVARIN

Brovarin aka Bromisoval aka Bromvalerylurea

Three cases of chronic bromisoval intoxication: clinical symptoms and application of energy dispersive X-ray analysis (EDX) to detect bromine in serum, urine and cerebrospinal fluid.

Kurokawa Y, Fukatsu R, Takasaka Y, Chiba T, Yamashita I, Asano Y.

Bromisoval has been used as a hypnotic for the past several decades, and its abuse was known to cause various neurological as well as psychiatric symptoms. Three patients showed a variety of symptoms which could not be explained neuroanatomically: nystagmus, gait disturbance and hyperreflexia of the limbs in all the cases, dysarthria, double vision, hypotonia, ataxic gait and disturbance of consciousness occasionally and auditory agnosia in one case. For the purpose of determining the diagnosis, an energy dispersive X-ray microanalysis (EDX) was used to detect bromine. Five microliters of specimens were placed on the carbon-coated mesh, and using a TN-2000 analyzer, characteristic X-ray peaks of bromine were detected in the serum, urine and cerebrospinal fluid. The sensitivity to detect bromine in the serum was 30 micrograms/ml.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
-Edit: I noticed that the link to the article didn't appear, so I removed the hyperlink and left it as text.-

I had some more thoughts on the drugs and theories relating them back to Watanagashi-hen, but I think I'll organize them a bit more first and post them later. Oh, and I also had an interesting musing on what could happen in episode 13 based on the reaction of the members that have played the game and some observations of the anime, but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post here considering the thread guidelines and, of course, the thread topic. I would like to bounce it off of some people, though.

[Jinsoo]

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Spoiler for My musings on the two holes and the events that night, obvious spoilers from the last two eps if it matters...:

At first I thought ol' K1 mixed up the grave's location. However upon close observation and rewatching of episode 11, this is not the case. He DID dig up the right hole. In fact, when he went to bury Teppei in 11, he had to go get the shovel and if you will all remember, he actually remembered the first hole then and went to fill it back in. The problem was our poor friend couldn't find it again. He went to the exact spot he dug it and it was gone! This scene was rather short and easily glossed over by the recent episode, but has a great deal of importance nonetheless. After all of K1's careful preparation, something happened to that first hole before he murdered Teppei(or at least before he imagined that he did it depending on what you believe happened). I'm not really sure what could have happened to that hole yet, unfortunately. I've yet to take any of my assumptions in that direction. Oh, and one last interesting observation. I noticed NONE of the leaves or that huge branch present in 12 when he was digging up the hole again.

Spoiler for O_O;:

Yeah, I noticed that the leaves and branch weren't there too. Made me think, either they skipped the scene where he took out the branches and all, or he was digging a different spot. But I rewatched that scene in ep 12, and it looked exactly like the spot where he buried him(minus the big branch). And I don't think if he was in a hurry to dig his corpse back up, he would throw the branch really far so it should've been within sight, shouldn't it? If it was all in his head, then why was the bat missing? And his bike was still out there too. I'm ditching my idea of "the perfect crime was a crime that never happened" cos if it didn't happen, the bat would still be in the locker. And I think the girls are covering up for him too. They always know what's going on with Keiichi anyway >.>;

[Nork22]

Originally Posted by Redbeard

I had some more thoughts on the drugs and theories relating them back to Watanagashi-hen, but I think I'll organize them a bit more first and post them later. Oh, and I also had an interesting musing on what could happen in episode 13 based on the reaction of the members that have played the game and some observations of the anime, but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post here considering the thread guidelines and, of course, the thread topic. I would like to bounce it off of some people, though.

So the Doc plans to make K1 hallucinate... but what's the point when K1's already hallucinating, unless there's some strange reaction when mixing these 2 chemicals. A sedative perhaps?

[LordAshram]

Some speculation on what might have happened with Tomitake in each arc...

Spoiler:

As we found out directly in the first two arcs, and in the TIPS for this one, Tomitake always ends up clawing out his own throat in a way similar to how Keiichi did in the first arc. In the first arc, when Rena and Mion were giving Keiichi that syringe that seemingly made him go completely nuts, they called it a penalty game. Notice that in this episode, Rika mentioned that at the festival, they played a game with Tomitake, but he came in last and they had a "fun penalty game."

Could this mean that the girls are ultimately responsible for Tomitake's death in this arc, and the others?

And about that bat Keiichi used... He remembered to check for it in the locker, but he seems to have forgotten he also hid it in a hole in a wooden shed before he allegedly murdered Satoko's uncle. It's possible that it's still in there, and went delusional sometime before he thought he took it out again.

[I<3killerloli's]

But why? The killer lolis are seemingly less and less killer with each passing episode. Now everybody else seems to be in the mood for murder.

[Killer Loli]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Wow, this episode introduced us to the possibility of a doppelgänger. Originally, I believed that there had to be a logical reason (non-supernatural) behind all this, but I am not sure anymore. If there truly is a doppelgänger running around, it will definitely tie up a lot of loose ends. Although, that explaination would be a little too convenient.

First of all i'd like to say is i love this series, i mean each chapter could've been it's own 13+ episode anime.
Anyways i've always thought that these different arcs/scenarios/chapters were like divergent universes; they all have the same history, same characters, same everything, up until the beginning of each chapter, thats when the different decisions of K1 create different story arcs, reflecting how the original higurashi was a visual novel/game. But now with the introduction of doppelganger, it raises the unlikely but possibility that all these arcs are happening simultaneously in the same universe.

well thats my WTF theory, i mean its more logical to think that the girls are just trying to cover for K1's buttox (sry been watchn forest gump) and create an alibi for him, but wouldn't it be cool if all the arcs were happening at the same time

[AzureFlux]

Spoiler:

I hear that this may be the last time we see Keiichi as main charcter, as the other archs are told from other people's perspectives.

Spoiler:

This is definitely not the last time you will be seeing K1 as the main character. While the later arcs are told from other character's POV, the game still switches back to K1's perspective every now and then. In terms of storyline, K1 is definitely still the main character.

[keke]

Originally Posted by Jinsoo

Spoiler for O_O;:

Yeah, I noticed that the leaves and branch weren't there too. Made me think, either they skipped the scene where he took out the branches and all, or he was digging a different spot. But I rewatched that scene in ep 12, and it looked exactly like the spot where he buried him(minus the big branch). And I don't think if he was in a hurry to dig his corpse back up, he would throw the branch really far so it should've been within sight, shouldn't it? If it was all in his head, then why was the bat missing? And his bike was still out there too. I'm ditching my idea of "the perfect crime was a crime that never happened" cos if it didn't happen, the bat would still be in the locker. And I think the girls are covering up for him too. They always know what's going on with Keiichi anyway >.>;

Spoiler:

Remember that K1 initally took the bat out of the locker and hid it so he could use it later for the murder. The murder itself may have all happened in his head, but perhaps his planning and preperations were real. This means digging the hole and hiding the bat.

This would explain why there is a hole for him to 'recheck' at the end of ep12. But it doesn't explain why the hole was already filled with dirt again. The policeman confirmed that the site was previously dug since the earth was soft, but there was no one to fill the hole after K1 dug it.

Also what could have made K1 go to the festival instead of going out with his plan? It appears that K1 went to make the phonecall right after digging his hole. Perhaps we actually did make the call, but fell asleep waiting for Satako's uncle to arrive? Then maybe in a half-sleep phase went to the festival? Although this doesn't really tie together, unless his encounter with Takano was also imaginary along with everything up until the next day. Then perhaps he actually went to the festival in a very tired state and later went home afterwards. Then that night dreamed all the events we saw in the last half of ep11.

[orion]

For my 2 cents worth on the drugs...

Spoiler:

I think that what Dr. Irie was doing was mixing a "cocktail" (Medications with certain properties combined to achieve a specific purpose, like sedation or anesthesia) to be adminstered to Kei by mouth. In this case, he was givng Kei 2 different medications in order to render him unconscious and/or calm him down. The tech that was with Dr. Irie was reminding him of the side effects of giving Kei this type of medicine in his condition is "outburst of mistrust and derangement", i.e significantly worsening his condition requiring physical restraining. I don't think that amobarbital and brovarin are available in the U.S. Brovarin is mentioned in a suicide manual.

Either way, the knowledge of this cocktail means that Dr. Irie isn't a "normal" primary care physician and that he has dealt with cases like this before.

A similar version was probably in the syringe in chapter one imo.

Since I don't believe in doppelgangers....

Spoiler:

Takano was probably warning him and covered her tracks with a body double again. I mean depending on when she "died" Kei could ruin her alibi.

[aliensporebomb]

What a mind-twister.

I've got my theories but they really likely won't apply.

Eagerly awaiting the next one because this asked more questions than ever.

The doctor is in on something.

Hive mind? Mass hipnosis? Mind control? Mental illness?

I just don't know but I'd met Mion & Co know a few things.

[Chibi_Faerie]

Mr guy's Logical theory is good, except for one thing that-

Spoiler for Takano's Death:

-Takano would have to be sure of. If she used Teppei's body she would have had to have cremated him good and been sure the corpse wouldn't have been found before the body was gone at least. It sounds like they found her before the body was burnt up completely. The bones would have had to be completely burnt up and gone in some areas. A females bone structure is slightly different than a males would be. If the skull was all that was left of the bone structure I'm not sure how similar/dissimilar a male and female skull are lol. So unless all this were met, and the police don't just assume she's been a guy all this time just following the dental records, were safe to say it's her I think. Or perhaps another woman's corpse that she got out of the hospital. Like an unclaimed body of someone found dead but no one knows who they are That was due to be desposed of as no one had claimed it and they couldn't keep it there forever. Then she could switch the dentals and do it maybe.

Either way... This arc is the most mind boggling yet for me. I swear this episode made my head go 'Kerpoof!'...

[Azn_GooWakJai]

basically this ep is the solution to the prob from the 1st arc. Soooo they are tying every arc bak in from the previous eps?? I mean there are 14 eps left.

[Chibi_Faerie]

I'm not sure, but I believe each of the arcs we have seen so far are the first 2 and now part of 3 question arcs. There is one more Question arc to go if I remember what I read correctly. Then There are answer arcs, which I think basicly are the arcs to clear up the question arcs and tie to them. But I think were only supposed to get the first 2. I know peoples explained this some where here before though.

[diopter]

That's correct: Studio DEEN will cover the 4 question arcs and 2 of the 4 answer arcs. The anime is currently on the 3rd question arc.

[Jaruromania]

Let's pray for OVAs.

And I think that there's a rational explanation for this, and no dopplegangers. If everyone was putting on an act in order to spite Keiichi or prevent Satoko from further mental instability, then Keiichi probably did kill the uncle, didn't go to the festival, and is having his mind messed with.

As for the body, someone could easily have moved it, or Keiichi possibly could have dug in the wrong place. After all, he was in a hurry when he was burying the body, and impusively dug a hole and put the body in.

As for Satoko's claims, the fact that she has already suffered so much and been abused that way means she likely could have been hallucinating her uncle's abuse that she claimed to have happened the day before. Or lying. And there's no visible burn marks from the "hot food thrown at her."

Or Keiichi could have just been hallucinating a great deal. But that leaves a lot of holes.

[RMgX]

I still don't want to believe in supernatural solutions so here I go

Spoiler for title:

Ok from the hints it seems like Teppei isn't home yet. Meaning he could be dead and K1 killed him. That he threw food on Satoko doesn't matter, that could have been before going to the festival since it happened yesterday according to Satoko or am I wrong here.
The reason everybody says they saw K1 is most likely because they are covering for him. It doesn't really have to be that everyone wants to. If the local mafia ( Mion/Shion ) says he was there it is probably not a good idea to disagree.
The girls are saying all these things about the festival either to mess with him into beleiving everything was a fream or to show him they will cover for him.
Takano is probably faking her death, in the series there is a female corpse that has never been found, Satoko's mother's corpse, could that be what is in the trunk?.
Why Tomitake dies everytime I do not know, ( He died this time to by clawing his throat out, see tips ) I guess that he takes a photo of something he shouldn't, could it be of some group of people who are giving an alibi for someone who isn't present, he takes pictures of the gang in the first arc during the festival?
It would be interesting to have some sort of map of the festival area.
Mion says K1 met Rika at the festival grounds.
Rika says she met him outside the assembly hall where she was with the village chief and everyone..
The doc says he was drinking with the chairman and everyone in the main office, is this the same thing as the assembly hall and when was this, before or after the Rika ceremony, It feels natural that the Watanagashi commite would be the "everyone" apart from the chief that Rika speaks off so the way I see it, the doc should therefore have seen K1 speaking to Rika if K1 was indeed there. It just seems to me that Rika's and the docs stories are a bit different, but hard to know without knowing time and if these are the same buildings.
Then there is this rain thing. In the first arc it rains what seems to be 2 days after the festival ( the scene where Rena puts her hand through the door ), this time it rains on the festivalday ( there is a short cut of rain in the actual festival ) Also it rains the day after the festival. I don't understand why this is so.
I also have a hard time explaining how the body could have disappeared, If K1 was digging in the right hole of course. K1 heard something when he got home from the murder, that could have been a cop staking out his location, that would explain why the cops found him digging as he would be a suspect and they might have put a tail on him. It could of course also had been his imagination or one of Mion/Shion's goons or one of the girls checking when he would be back.