[Manga]Naruto's elements?

[Rezard]

Originally Posted by Fran~

In order to do it, he would need a Kekkei Genkai. A KB is a clon, not a different ninja.

Actually, KB works like a different ninja so Naruto doesnt need a Kekkei Genkai.

Remember how Kakashi said that it is not possible for a single ninja do rasenshuriken because it was the same as looking right and left at the same time, but Naruto manage to do it with KB. KB works like a different ninja.

Since two different people can combine elemental attacks without the Kekkei Genkai, there is no need for it.

[yaluckyboy]

One last point I would like to bring out is that it would possible (in theory) to use two seperate Jutsus ate the same time. Let's say one in the right hand and another in the left. There is no need to use them as the same Jutsu, like Yamato was explaining when he showed the Mokuton; instead, he combines their seperate effect.

I personally believe that when Yamato said that the use of two seperate elements at once was impossible without a Kekkei Genkai was refering to the use of them simultaniously in the same Jutsu and not the use of two seperate Jutsu in which the combined effects create the desired results. In which case, this would be intirely possible.

[Slayne]

Originally Posted by Fran~

There is the point... Sarutobi never mixed 2 elemental jutsus, the other examples have 2 ninjas doing the trick. Remember Fukasaku + Shima + Jiraiya also.

Sarutobi combines an Earth Element and a Fire element into one technique in episode 69 during his fight with Oro. I started reading the manga after the chuunin exams, but was this technique not canon?

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Rezard

Actually, KB works like a different ninja so Naruto doesnt need a Kekkei Genkai.

Remember how Kakashi said that it is not possible for a single ninja do rasenshuriken because it was the same as looking right and left at the same time, but Naruto manage to do it with KB. KB works like a different ninja.

Since two different people can combine elemental attacks without the Kekkei Genkai, there is no need for it.

That's the source of the misunderstanding here... Naruto could do it with KB because he is controling chakra with one KB and he is manipulating it with another KB. Konohamaru even could do it to perform Rasengan, one KB control the chakra that Konohamaru is releasing.

If Naruto could have another elemental affinity, he couldn't controlling and manipulating it just with another KB, because that's terrain for Kekkei Genkai.

It would be so much easy for every ninja to perform collaborating jutsus just creating a KB using wind plus the original using fire or water, whatever. There is a lot of ninja with the talent to perform that, Kakashi, Asuma, Sandaime, etc...

I want to remember the hard time for Kakashi to deal with Kakuzu wind+fire attacks, Kakashi did use water jutsus and was ready to perform Kamui (with the backfire that it means to him)...

Originally Posted by yaluckyboy

One last point I would like to bring out is that it would possible (in theory) to use two seperate Jutsus ate the same time. Let's say one in the right hand and another in the left. There is no need to use them as the same Jutsu, like Yamato was explaining when he showed the Mokuton; instead, he combines their seperate effect.

No, what Yamato was showing was the manipulation of 2 different elements, he released y manipulated chakra to form two different elements, but he didn't perform any jutsus with them. When he used his kekkei genkai, he molded mokuton, but before that, he couldn't do it.

That's the point... one thing is release, another thing is control and manipulation to perform a jutsu.

I personally believe that when Yamato said that the use of two seperate elements at once was impossible without a Kekkei Genkai was refering to the use of them simultaniously in the same Jutsu and not the use of two seperate Jutsu in which the combined effects create the desired results. In which case, this would be intirely possible.

If were in that way, why nobody use it in that way?.
For some reason the collaboration jutsu is showed in a lot of cases performed by 2 or more ninjas. The example to me is Kakuzu, he went to all the trouble of the differents hearts just to perform that kind of collaboration jutsus.

Originally Posted by Slayne

Sarutobi combines an Earth Element and a Fire element into one technique in episode 69 during his fight with Oro. I started reading the manga after the chuunin exams, but was this technique not canon?

In the manga Sarutobi attacks first Orochi with shuriken kage bunshin, Orochi responds with edo tensei (Shodaime and Nidaime Hokage). Sarutobi attacked them with Fire Jutsu, Nidaime blocked with water jutsus and counterattacked him with another Water Jutsu and Hokage respond with Earth Jutsu... and that's all...

In episode 69 they didn't fight, that was ep 71. And again, Sarutobi never combined elemental jutsus, he used fire and then earth, just like in the manga, just changed the choreography of the fight a little, but the jutsus are the same.

[Kafriel]

I personally believe that when Yamato said that the use of two seperate elements at once was impossible without a Kekkei Genkai was refering to the use of them simultaniously in the same Jutsu and not the use of two seperate Jutsu in which the combined effects create the desired results. In which case, this would be intirely possible.

This is possible, although the combined effects of 2 elements differ greatly from the simultaneous use of 2 as a Kekkei genkai. Take Haku's ice for example, it's water+wind, but using suiton+fuuton doesn't make ice...Yamato's powers can also be used as a perfect example for this.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

This is possible, although the combined effects of 2 elements differ greatly from the simultaneous use of 2 as a Kekkei genkai. Take Haku's ice for example, it's water+wind, but using suiton+fuuton doesn't make ice...Yamato's powers can also be used as a perfect example for this.

i'm going to quote me:

No, what Yamato was showing was the manipulation of 2 different elements, he released and manipulated chakra to form two different elements, but he didn't perform any jutsus with them. When he used his kekkei genkai, he molded mokuton, but before that, he couldn't do it.

That's the point... one thing is release, another thing is control and manipulation to perform a jutsu.

[yaluckyboy]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

This is possible, although the combined effects of 2 elements differ greatly from the simultaneous use of 2 as a Kekkei genkai. Take Haku's ice for example, it's water+wind, but using suiton+fuuton doesn't make ice...Yamato's powers can also be used as a perfect example for this.

What you're saying is just what I was trying to explain. Naruto doesn't have to use the two elements as the same Jutsu, he just needs to make two seperate Jutsus and combine their individual effects to create a new effect.

I must be sounding like a broken record at this point, but Fran~ just doesn't seem to get it.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by yaluckyboy

What you're saying is just what I was trying to explain. Naruto doesn't have to use the two elements as the same Jutsu, he just needs to make two seperate Jutsus and combine their individual effects to create a new effect.

I must be sounding like a broken record at this point, but Fran~ just doesn't seem to get it.

That wont work. Why? Because you need a bloodline to do that. For example:

Kakashi can use both water and earth, than what's stoping him from using mokotun?
Many ninjas trough out Naruto world can use at least two elements, that doesent mean they have a bloodline.
What Yamato is doing is fusing two elements together and than using his first hokage genes he is able to pruduce a new element.

[yaluckyboy]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

That wont work. Why? Because you need a bloodline to do that. For example:

Kakashi can use both water and earth, than what's stoping him from using mokotun?
Many ninjas trough out Naruto world can use at least two elements, that doesent mean they have a bloodline.
What Yamato is doing is fusing two elements together and than using his first hokage genes he is able to pruduce a new element.

But using two seperate Jutsus with seperate Elements should be possible. One Element in one hand and another Element in the other; or in the case of Naruto, one Element with one Clone and another Element with the other Clone. You don't have to to use them at the same time and place, instead you just need to physically combine their individual effects.

Like I explained earlier, if you mix a match and a gas canister, it makes a larger flame in the form of a flamethrower. The match and the gas are two seperate objects and can be used individually and do not require to be used AT THE SAME TIME AND PLACE.

It is certain that using the two Elements at the same time to create a single Jutsu with a new Element would deffinately require a Kekkei Genkai. But using two seperate Jutsus simultaniously should be easy enough. Naruto can already use two Rasengans at the same time, why not use one that has Wind Element and the other use whatever other Element he might possess.

[Kafriel]

Pretty much what MK said...earth+water=mud, which is not a style, and that's all Naruto can make, assuming he knows water and earth jutsus...to be more realistic, if Naruto had a second affinity, it would have been lightning (to add piercing to his insane slash), but he doesn't have anything besides wind. You don't just wake up one day and say "oh, look at that, I can make slush with wind and water!", it's something that would have showed when Naruto used the affinity card...now I sound like a broken record too
Alright, one last attempt at clearing this mess:

he just needs to make two seperate Jutsus and combine their individual effects to create a new effect.

This is false, you can only make a totally new effect with Kekkei Genkai, molding 2+ elements in one jutsu. Stacking elements in alternating attacks is not molding, it's just combo-ing, and shares the added effects of each and every attack, without something new appearing out of the blue.

Like I explained earlier, if you mix a match and a gas canister, it makes a larger flame in the form of a flamethrower. The match and the gas are two seperate objects and can be used individually and do not require to be used AT THE SAME TIME AND PLACE.

The flamethrower has flame, from the match, and the gas adds to the ignition. There was gas and flame, now there's a big flame. There's nothing genuinely NEW about this reaction.
EDIT: are we all talking about the same thing here?

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

That wont work. Why? Because you need a bloodline to do that. For example:

Kakashi can use both water and earth, than what's stoping him from using mokotun?
Many ninjas trough out Naruto world can use at least two elements, that doesent mean they have a bloodline.
What Yamato is doing is fusing two elements together and than using his first hokage genes he is able to pruduce a new element.

No... that's not what yaluckyboy is saying... His/her point is about a collaboration jutsu, no jutsus with differents elements than the 5 originals.

@yaluckyboy: i understand you, i know what you're talking about. But still, i'm not agree with your point:

In order to do that, he needs a kekkei genkai, it doesnt matter if you arent speaking about mokouton or whatever.
To make 2 separate jutsus, as you said, one with original naruto's body and another with a KB, you need a Kekkei Genkai, why?, because a KB can't release, control, manipulate and mold chakra to form a different elemental jutsu than the original naruto at the same time.

Remember that a KB has the very same chakra of the caster, he redistributes his chakra, so the affinities.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by yaluckyboy

But using two seperate Jutsus with seperate Elements should be possible. One Element in one hand and another Element in the other; or in the case of Naruto, one Element with one Clone and another Element with the other Clone. You don't have to to use them at the same time and place, instead you just need to physically combine their individual effects.

Like I explained earlier, if you mix a match and a gas canister, it makes a larger flame in the form of a flamethrower. The match and the gas are two seperate objects and can be used individually and do not require to be used AT THE SAME TIME AND PLACE.

It is certain that using the two Elements at the same time to create a single Jutsu with a new Element would deffinately require a Kekkei Genkai. But using two seperate Jutsus simultaniously should be easy enough. Naruto can already use two Rasengans at the same time, why not use one that has Wind Element and the other use whatever other Element he might possess.

What you are saying is true to some point. For an example, Naruto can use both jutsu's in the same time, like if he used wind and water, he will create some efect but he will be unable to pruduce ice. He will only increse there's power by mixing them together. Or if he use wind and fire, he will be able to increse its destructive power, but won't be able to create ne element. But to reach this state Naruto will need some serios training.

And your theory about match and a gas canister can't be applied here because mixing those to elements together you create a new one ''fire''. Something Naruto can't do without the bloodline.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

What you are saying is true to some point. For an example, Naruto can use both jutsu's in the same time, like if he used wind and water, he will create some efect but he will be unable to pruduce ice.

No, he cant... please, go to read about elemental affinities.
We arent talking about Ice, we are talking about if Naruto can do collaboration jutsus with KB, i'm saying that he can't, because, a KB is the same Naruto, so, to control and manipulate at the same time a different element, you need a Kekkei Genkai, which Naruto doesn't have.

With Yamato it was a different history, each one was controlling their own elemental jutsus, because they're different ninjas. A KB is the same ninja with the same chakra.

[yaluckyboy]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

What you are saying is true to some point. For an example, Naruto can use both jutsu's in the same time, like if he used wind and water, he will create some efect but he will be unable to pruduce ice. He will only increse there's power by mixing them together. Or if he use wind and fire, he will be able to increse its destructive power, but won't be able to create ne element. But to reach this state Naruto will need some serios training.

And your theory about match and a gas canister can't be applied here because mixing those to elements together you create a new one ''fire''. Something Naruto can't do without the bloodline.

Finally I think someone understood me. And about the match and gas example, I just couldn't think of anything else to relate it too. Of course Naruto would never be able to do it at the level he is now, but with his rapid growth and ever-changing battle style, the day he could accomplish this may not be too far off.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by Fran~

No, he cant... please, go to read about elemental affinities.
We arent talking about Ice, we are talking about if Naruto can do collaboration jutsus with KB, i'm saying that he can't, because, a KB is the same Naruto, so, to control and manipulate at the same time a different element, you need a Kekkei Genkai, which Naruto doesn't have.

With Yamato it was a different history, each one was controlling their own elemental jutsus, because they're different ninjas. A KB is the same ninja with the same chakra.

Well i think that Naruto's clone is complete replica of the real Naruto, anything he can do, the clone will be able to do. Like using rasengans in the same time, or how each clone can enter the tailed state. The shadow clone technique is capable of producing clones that can use different jutsus in the same time as the original. Even be able to mix elemental chakra.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fran~

With Yamato it was a different history, each one was controlling their own elemental jutsus, because they're different ninjas. A KB is the same ninja with the same chakra.

2 people can use separate elemental attacks to create a larger single attack made up of 2 elements. This is a canon fact as shown my Naruto and Yamato (or even more recently when Team Sand and Karui's brother combined their attacks, both elemental and other) that you agree with. So, what is to stop a Kage Bushin and a regular person from doing the same thing? Nothing.

A Kage Bushin can use whatever technique, no matter the element, that the original knows. If the original has learned how to use 2, 3 or even all 5 elements, then the Kage Bushin will also know how to use all 2, 3 or even 5 elements. The fact that the Kage Bushin has the same chakra does not matter in the slightest because they are not mixing elements (they are two physical bodies, even if one is cloned, that take up a separate space within the physical world, consequently they can do 2 completely different things at the same time), they are simply attacking an opponent together (something every Kage Bushin in the series has done thus far) using ninjutsu rather than taijutsu. No one is manipulating 2 elements (they are instead manipulating when a ninjutsu attack hits, and the proximity of their attacks with each other), and no new elements are being produced (2 or more elements will always be there). All that is occurring are 2 separate attacks coming together to create a larger attack.

Why wasn't this method used in the past? Who knows or cares. Simply because something hasn't been done in the past (or at least hasn't been shown) doesn't make it impossible... All that matters is if the speculation works with known information, and so far nothing you have said has even come close to disputing what I and others have mentioned.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Well i think that Naruto's clone is copmlete replica of the real Naruto, anything he can do, the clone will be able to do. Like using rasengans in the same time, or how each clone can enter the tailed state. The shadow clone technique is capable of producing clones that can use different jutsus in the same time as the original. Even be able to mix elemental chakra.

Exactly and +1.

This conversation si getting annoying, so this is my last post in this thread.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by yaluckyboy

Finally I think someone understood me. And about the match and gas example, I just couldn't think of anything else to relate it too. Of course Naruto would never be able to do it at the level he is now, but with his rapid growth and ever-changing battle style, the day he could accomplish this may not be too far off.

It's not about that...
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Collaboration_jutsu

yes... it's the wiki, but, you have quotes like this "Collaboration jutsu is all about teamwork. Although collaboration jutsu can be used by ninja who can simply match each other's timing, the best results are seen when collaboration jutsu are implemented by users who are mutually like-minded and have a working understanding each other's drives and character; the more time they spend together, then the more they can potentially become in sync with each other."

You can say that who is better than a KB in order to do that... but... a KB isnt a different Ninja!.

Some collaboration techniques work because one element is weaker than the other element. However, there are also elements that possess a good affinity with each other. Wind Release and Water Release also have been seen as having a good affinity for each other in a collaboration jutsu. Naruto's and Yamato's Typhoon Water Vortex Technique is a wind and water combination that's created from the Wind Release: Rasengan and Water Release: Tearing Torrent. These would be examples of two-way synchronized elemental combination collaboration jutsu.

IIRC in the games of Naruto you can find a lot of examples like that.

My final statement:

Spoiler for manga:

Originally Posted by james0246

what is to stop a Kage Bushin and a regular person from doing the same thing? Nothing.

A KB is a CLON, not a person!

A Kage Bushin can use whatever technique, no matter the element, that the original knows. If the original has learned how to use 2, 3 or even all 5 elements, then the Kage Bushin will also know how to use all 2, 3 or even 5 elements.

Im not again that!... my point is about doing that at the same time, to do that, you need a Kekkei Genkai, clons have the same chakra, 2 persons have different chakra... in order to do that with clons, you need a way to do the process of release, control, mold and manipulation with just one source of chakra, and that's territory of Kekkei Genkai. Sharingan can't copy that kind of jutsu for that reason, not for being a different element.

The fact that the Kage Bushin has the same chakra does not matter in the slightest because they are not mixing elements (they are two physical bodies, even if one is cloned, that take up a separate space within the physical world, consequently they can do 2 completely different things at the same time), they are simply attacking an opponent together (something every Kage Bushin in the series has done thus far) using ninjutsu rather than taijutsu. No one is manipulating 2 elements (they are instead manipulating when a ninjutsu attack hits, and the proximity of their attacks with each other), and no new elements are being produced (2 or more elements will always be there). All that is occurring are 2 separate attacks coming together to create a larger attack.

It's not a fact... it doesn't matter if they arent mixing, they are controlling, manipulating, releasing, molding chakra of different nature. That's the point of the kekkei genkai, not the "new element", that "new element" is a consequence from the process of manipulating, releasing, molding and controlling chakra of different nature!.

Why wasn't this method used in the past? Who knows or cares. Simply because something hasn't been done in the past (or at least hasn't been shown) doesn't make it impossible... All that matters is if the speculation works with known information, and so far nothing you have said has even come close to disputing what I and others have mentioned.

I posted Kakashi's pic for that reason... in a situation of life or death, he didnt use that technique.. he was thinking in Kamui...

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Well i think that Naruto's clone is complete replica of the real Naruto, anything he can do, the clone will be able to do. Like using rasengans in the same time, or how each clone can enter the tailed state. The shadow clone technique is capable of producing clones that can use different jutsus in the same time as the original. Even be able to mix elemental chakra.

i read the links... where it says that?... a KB can use jutsus, yes, but they cant mix elemental chakra.

[milan kyuubi]

Fran~ If what you are saying is true, that KB doesn't count as a diferent person. That by you theory shadow clone's can't use jutsus. Than how is Naruto able to use multiply rasengans in the same time. If Naruto's clone's can mend chakra to the highest degree and use wind chakra like in the rasenshuriken, whats stoping them from using diferent jutsus?

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Fran~ If what you are saying is true, that KB doesn't count as a diferent person. That by you theory shadow clone's can't use jutsus. Than how is Naruto able to use multiply rasengans in the same time. If Naruto's clone's can mend chakra to the highest degree and use wind chakra like in the rasenshuriken, whats stoping them from using diferent jutsus?

Rasengan is about SHAPE manipulation... for that reason it doesnt need handseals. When we are talking about elements, we talk about NATURE manipulation.

While Shape manipulation changes the shape and movement of chakra, elemental nature manipulation changes the actual nature of the chakra, altering its properties and characteristics.

In order to manipulate 2 different elements AT THE SAME TIME, there is when you need a Kekkei Genkai.

Naruto could train with KB with rasengan because is a technique based in SHAPE manipulation... and also with FRS because he was manipulation ONLY 1 element: wind.

[Kafriel]

you need a way to do the process of release, control, mold and manipulation with just one source of chakra, and that's territory of Kekkei Genkai.

That's the whole idea behind Kage Bunshin, you create more sources of chakra with a smaller capacity, if Naruto has two clones, each has their own separate chakra pool, regardless of whether it stemmed from Naruto himself in the first place. How they use it and what they do with it is up to them. So, with that in mind, they can all mold their own chakra to whatever they want. Having a Kekkei Genkai is required when 2+ elements are molded in one technique by the same user: KBs are not a channeled technique, but a cast one, so each KB is a different user, and as such can freely mold chakra without messing with Naruto's head, at least until the jutsu is dispelled, in which case Naruto would get a flashback of the jutsus his KBs used; if he was performing a jutsu at the same time, he would get confused and his jutsu would get dispelled as well, exactly because he lacks a kekkei genkai.