(CR) Angolmois: Genkou Kassenki

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this. No clue if this series is going to delve into politics or not, but it's nice to have more context and background

^ You're welcome.

But I should add that Angolmois is obviously a work of fiction, and it has clearly taken artistic liberty with history, so we shouldn't assume that it's portraying actual events with total accuracy.

Furthermore, I'm an anime-only viewer, so whatever I picked up with Googlefu won't necessarily correspond with developments in the manga original.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I knocked together a few tidbits from Wikipedia for quick and easy reference:

Tsushima's rulers
It's a bit complicated:

- Up until the middle of the 13th century, Tsushima was ruled by the Abiru clan. Abiru Yajiro, the adopted son introduced at Ep2, 03:50, was from this clan.

- At the time of the Mongol invasions, Tsushima was officially ruled by the Shouni clan. The Shouni claimed descent from the Fujiwara, the most prestigious of Japan's aristocratic families. The Fujiwara were closely related to the Imperial family, due to a series of arranged marriages.

- But the high-ranking members of the Shouni who "ruled" Tsushima were actually based in Kyushu, as was the case with Shouni Kagesuke (Ep2, 08:36). It was their retainers, the Sou clan, who were the de facto administrators of the island. Sou Sukekuni, the aged chieftan who died in this episode, was of this clan. The emblem, or mon, of the Sou clan, was pictured in the opening seconds of the first episode.

- As Sou Sukekuni said, the Sou were indeed descended from the Taira (which explains why he was able to present the armour of Taira Tomomori to Kuchii at 17:52). The Taira were one of the two major clans that fought the Gempei War in the late 12th century. They eventually lost to the Minamoto clan, who went on to establish the Kamakura Shogunate. Both the Taira and Minamoto descended from the Fujiwara.

- The Taira were mainly based in Western Japan, while the Minamoto were mainly based in the east, hence Princess Teruhi's derogatory opinion of Kuchii as an "eastern barbarian" at Ep2, 11:48. Even as far back as the 13th century, there was already a socio-cultural divide between east and west, with Eastern Japan regarded as wild backcountry, in contrast to the sophisticated capital of Kyoto, and the commercial centres of the west.

- It's said, though, that the Minamoto were the better warriors, and Minamoto Yoshitsune (whose supposed "blade" was presented to Kuchii at 09:30) was the most famous warrior among them. Yoshitsune is the subject of countless popular stories, including in manga and anime, and he's especially remembered for defeating Benkei, the warrior monk, who then became his retainer.

- The Minamoto were the first Shoguns to become de facto rulers of the nation. So, by tradition, all future Shoguns had to be able to trace their lineage to the Minamoto. The Hojo family were not related to the Minamoto, so they took a leaf from the Fujiwara playbook, and seized control as regents to the Shogun, through another series of political marriages. As I mentioned earlier, the Hojo were the true power behind the "throne" at this point in Japan's history.


Tsushima's economy and fauna

- Tsushima does not appear to have enough arable land to sustain large-scale agriculture. The population survived and prospered mainly on fishing and maritime commerce between Korea and Japan.

- Just as Iriomote island in the Okinawa/Ryukyu archipelago has the Iriomote cat, Tsushima has its own native species of wildcat, known as the Tsushima Leopard Cat. If you watch closely in Ep2, you'd notice it at 12:47 and 15:40. It's also in the OP.

Going by what you posted I assume the princess is actually from the Shouni clan, rather than the Sou clan. - That would at least explain why the chieftain referred to her as 'Princess'

[The 48th Ronin]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But I should add that Angolmois is obviously a work of fiction, and it has clearly taken artistic liberty with history, so we shouldn't assume that it's portraying actual events with total accuracy.

Well, Tomomori's armor might be a historical inaccuracy already since the guy died in the Battle of Dan-no-ura by drowning. Unless his body was recovered and the his armor was salvaged in this story.

[wuhugm]

As expected they dead

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

Well, Tomomori's armor might be a historical inaccuracy already since the guy died in the Battle of Dan-no-ura by drowning. Unless his body was recovered and the his armor was salvaged in this story.

What I find interesting is that Kuchii is now armed with a Minamoto sword, and armoured in a full set of Taira armour.

It as though, in his person, the sundered halves of the country's two foremost warrior legacies are made whole again, to face the nation's greatest existential threat to date.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I knocked together a few tidbits from Wikipedia for quick and easy reference:

You really pulled all the stops out there, thanks for the interesting post. The main thing I got out of the ep was that the lord was a pompous jackass from start to finish and the princess is carrying right on with her mood swings. I think the guy might've just agreed to help defend her island out of embarressment. But it's part of being a princess or public figure that you can never show your true feelings.

Still don't mind the parchment filter at all.

[wuhugm]

Frickin traitors!

MC had a harem before lol

[Nivek von Beldo]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Frickin traitors!

MC had a harem before lol

Old Japan and their polygamy... and he can now add Teruhi to the list, that princess completely fallen in love with Jizou.

Poor Teruhi, i hope she recover fast.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Polyglamine was normal at that time and he had 7 kids, treating it like a cheap harem from a mediocre light novel looks foolish.

What I'm enjoying in the anime is that although there are the exaggerations that always exist in historical adaptations, they still try to use history as the basis, the use of the mount by the samurai was a great military advance to fight against the mongols in that period.

[Nivek von Beldo]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX 2.o

Polyglamine was normal at that time and he had 7 kids, treating it like a cheap harem from a mediocre light novel looks foolish.

What I'm enjoying in the anime is that although there are the exaggerations that always exist in historical adaptations, they still try to use history as the basis, the use of the mount by the samurai was a great military advance to fight against the mongols in that period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk (Tell me more about MC please)

yeah the rule of cool but works, this is fiction, not a history book.

[Kanon]

I was disappointed they didn't show us how Kuchii killed the enemy general and retrieved the heads. It seemed like he had a plan when he headed right into the obvious enemy trap, but all we saw him do was charge in and that was it.

The twist at the end was nice.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I was disappointed they didn't show us how Kuchii killed the enemy general and retrieved the heads. It seemed like he had a plan when he headed right into the obvious enemy trap, but all we saw him do was charge in and that was it.

The twist at the end was nice.

The plan was to charge full force before the enemy could regroup and prepare their trap. Presumably Kuchi's charisma and ferocity won the day.

[4th Dimension]

I didn't enjoy this episode as much as the previous ones. This one hangs a bit too much on Kuchi being such an impossible killing machine that he can carve his way through an entire enemy formation to get to the general. I mean sure, I guess he can, but not even showing it, and hell when we leave him he just seems stuck there not progressing forward, so it feels like a writer giving him the win, rather than something he achieved.

Also while in the last episode he appeared smart, in this episode MC seems a bit too much like just a hothead that kinda got lucky that his plan worked, even though enemy expected him to do it.

Also someone mentioned that we won't see Koreans and Chinese? Hasn't these all been basically Mongol Korean auxiliaries? They even call them using ancient name for one of Korean Kingdoms, and they fly banners pretty similar to today's Southern Korean flags. And it would make sense for this to be Koreans given that Tsushima is not the main goal, so it's normal for them to just send a bunch of their allies to do the island in.

Besides, I don't think Mongol Mongols would fight on the foot if they can help it.

The bit at the end? Yeah, that on the other hand is smart. I also wonder when the colorfull band of Mongol agents we've seen in this episode will make their move.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

I didn't enjoy this episode as much as the previous ones. This one hangs a bit too much on Kuchi being such an impossible killing machine that he can carve his way through an entire enemy formation to get to the general.

Yes, this is a significant shortcoming, but I think it's the way it is due simply to the lack of resources. As it were, the quality of the art and animation is just about passable, but not great certainly. I think it may have been logistically challenging for the staff to properly animate how Kuchii broke through the enemy ranks, so I wouldn't be surprised if they gave up on doing so.

That said, Kuchii's tactics were not flawed. It was indeed common for mediaeval armies to over-stretch their battle lines and open themselves to a pre-meditated counter-attack. That was, in fact, a signature tactic of the mounted archers of the steppes, ie, the Mongols and the Huns before them, and in fact as far back as the Parthians, from whom we get the modern-day expression of "a parting shot".

The steppe warriors had the advantage of range, firepower and mobility, and they made full use of these advantages to harass the enemy at range, forcing the opposing side to charge towards them. And once the enemies tired themselves out in pursuit, the mounted warriors reversed their "retreat" to finish them off.

Kuchii was not wrong, either, in assessing that battles have a certain flow, and combats are often won or lost based on the relative strengths of each side's morale. Having regained the initiative and momentum to temporarily scatter the enemy ranks, Kuchii judged that the moment had come to strike a more decisive blow before the Mongols regained their composure. Retrieving the heads of the Sou lord and his son was, in his mind, also worth the risk, as the impact on his side's morale would be considerably improved by this one gamble.

As an illustration, Oda Nobunaga would make his name many centuries later, by carrying out a similarly audacious manoeuvre against a far larger enemy force. So, the point here is that the charisma of a military leader can make or break an army, as was the case with Kuchii's forces.

So, all in all, the tactics, as presented, are plausible. It's just that the on-screen execution was not up to the task of conveying their plausibility.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Hasn't these all been basically Mongol Korean auxiliaries? They even call them using ancient name for one of Korean Kingdoms, and they fly banners pretty similar to today's Southern Korean flags.

Yes, the vast majority of the Mongol force invading Japan consisted of Korean and Chinese conscripts. Going by this account, the total size of the invading army in 1274 was about 40,000 soldiers, versus about 10,000 Japanese samurai across the whole nation, of which only 300 were based in Tsushima.

(As one would expect, in real life, the invasion of Tsushima merited barely a footnote in the invasion of 1274. The Mongols landed and obliterated the island's defenders and left no survivors, the end. Angolmois may or may not end the same way, but going by the introduction at episode 1, I think the chances are good that Kuchii's valiant defence eventually came to nought. This story is likely going the same direction as the Battle of the Alamo.)

The 1281 invasion was even more formidable, with the Mongols fielding some 140,000 soldiers — again, mostly conscripts — against 40,000 of the Japanese. As mentioned earlier, the Japanese were saved only by sheer luck, with the weather working against the Mongols in both campaigns.

The lesson to be learnt from history? It's never an easy thing to invade an island nation: The English were also partly saved from the Spanish Armada in 1588 by favourable weather. The logistics of putting together a navy large enough to not just transport soldiers but also horses and provisions is phenomenally challenging, and ruinously expensive.

[Haak]

I'm not liking the directing of this show. The battles and skirmishes just really lack atmosphere and tension (perhaps due to aforementioned budget limitations) and the characterisation is pretty generic thus far. I don't know how accurate this story is but I get the feeling it's overly focused on historical details and "war tactics exposition" and fails to tell an engaging story.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That said, Kuchii's tactics were not flawed. It was indeed common for mediaeval armies to over-stretch their battle lines and open themselves to a pre-meditated counter-attack. That was, in fact, a signature tactic of the mounted archers of the steppes, ie, the Mongols and the Huns before them, and in fact as far back as the Parthians, from whom we get the modern-day expression of "a parting shot".
.

Yes, I am aware of the dangers of overstreching and defeat in detail. Problem here is one of presentation. Problem is that the enemy they finally attack DOESN'T LOOK overstretched. When we leave the MC, there is an entire BLOCK of troops between him and the enemy commander, in pretty tight formation and more troops to the sides. And on top of it all the enemy counter plan WORKED. They DID encircle him. He should have been crushed by the weight of numbers alone, not to mention that most of those with him seem to be members of militia or Japanese equivalent.

I frankly thought the reason the princess was there so she could kick the rest into gear to drive to his rescue and hit the enemy in the back, therefore easing the pressure on him and spoiling his plans. But so far she has kinda been useless.

Oh and yeah. The introduction of those two other samurai or something I guess REALLY broke the flow of the episode. We are in a fight and then suddenly this guy that isn't really distinctive enough is rambling something about himself. Only later I figured he was probably another of the exiles. At least the archer has a distinctive enough design.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm not liking the directing of this show. The battles and skirmishes just really lack atmosphere and tension (perhaps due to aforementioned budget limitations) and the characterisation is pretty generic thus far. I don't know how accurate this story is but I get the feeling it's overly focused on historical details and "war tactics exposition" and fails to tell an engaging story.

between these points, I disagree on this one, I believe that the design used is quite different from the other series and the style of animation too, I consider a positive point.

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX 2.o

between these points, I disagree on this one, I believe that the design used is quite different from the other series and the style of animation too, I consider a positive point.

That's not what characterization means

[The 48th Ronin]

Just realized another historical inaccuracy. Why the hell is Goryeo using the flag of Joseon?

[SeijiSensei]

Both attempted invasions encountered "kamikaze" typhoons. Here's a brief documentary on these invasions. The use of naval trebuchet and bombs by the Mongols against Sou's forces on the beach are shown here.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/1w0DlyP-fgE

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The video that follows this on YouTube presents a quick overview of the Mongol Empire and its expansion, particularly through Persia and the Middle East.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/WjS1FbHLIxM

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