(L) Noragami

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Okay, I'm not buying this.

What we've seen so far was Yukine, someone with a clearly difficult background and death, being stuck in an impossibly difficult situation that he doesn't quite understand himself, and trying to deal with it like any kid his age would; while Yato who knows exactly what's going on was pretty much an ass to him - most of the time he behaved almost as childishly as Yukine, he never really told Yukine anything, he rarely ever offered any comfort, rarely (if ever) tried to reach out to him, etc.

And now suddenly Yukine is the one at fault? Because omg poor Yato was ~enduring~ in silence something that could've been avoided if he just listened to Hiyori and treated Yukine as the confused child he is? (If he's really hurting that bad and is on the verge of death that would've been the logical choice instead of letting things get out of hand.)

Yeah, sorry, but the end of this episode was BS. Too bad, because otherwise it was the best episode so far.

They're both at fault. Yato did warn Yukine that his thoughts directly affect him.

But from Hiyori's perspective, between hurting someone's feelings and directly causing someone to fall terminally ill, which one is worse?

The "enduring" part refers to the possibility that Yato could do just as Yukine feared by removing his name and abandoning him, but he didn't. However, Yukine understandably also took that to mean that he's "stuck" with him.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Yato already stated that gods do not have any moral standards or repercussions for their actions like their Shinki/Regalia do. Yato being a sleazebag won't kill Yukine, but Yukine feeling sorry for himself will kill Yato. Thought crime is a bitch.

Thing is, the only one in the position to do anything about the problem is Yato. Yukine barely even knows what he is - Yato is the one who knows everything and knows which actions lead to what consequences. He knows that Yukine not getting "better" (for the lack of a better word) will kill him. And yet he did nothing, and let things get out of hand.

Oh I'm sure there will be some explanation that center on how Yato is actually awesome because he endured all that to keep Yukine around and "alive" (well, less undead), but likely that'll be BS as well and it won't excuse the whole "Yukine is the one at fault" thing we got at the end of the episode.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Secondly, Yato did warn Yukine his actions do directly impact Yato, and even scolded him for the time he stole that skateboard and tried to cop a feel with Hiyori. It's understandable that Yukine wouldn't know what Yato meant, but he did warn him.

But what's the point of warning if Yukine doesn't understand what he means? He's about as convincing as a sleazebag uncle warning a young nephew not to do bad things while he's drunk and high and stealing someone's bike (give or take stuff as per individual taste ). He gave no reason whatsoever that would've made Yukine actually heed his warnings.

Yukine is not blameless, no, but he's just a kid and Yato is in the position of an adult guardian. The one who should've known better is Yato.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Even taking what had happened into consideration, what Yato did was still not the best for Yukine's situation.
On top of that, even after what is going to happen in the next episode, Yato still did nothing to Yukine's insecurities. Even Hiyori is losing some sympathy on Yato after that.
So, despite the reason that Yato has, he still handled the situation poorly. But then, I guess that is the best he can do due to lack of his people skill.

I have to disagree with this. It doesn't boil down to people skills in this situation. There are some people who will learn from being spoken to & there are others who need to learn the hard way. Yukine is the latter. We've seen both Hiyori & Yato tell him what is right from wrong on many occasions, but it just goes into one ear & out the other.

Personally, even though it was risky, the decision Yato made was correct. That made an impression on Yukine & experiencing the consequences instead of being told of them makes for a lesson learned.

Remember that Yukine isn't an adult, he's a minor. His logical barrier is far inferior to everyone else's. Also, his self-pity for dying made him even more ignorant, no one could reach him through words. So having him experience 'that' was worth it.

Like the saying goes, "no pain, no gain."

[Bern-san]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Okay, I'm not buying this.

What we've seen so far was Yukine, someone with a clearly difficult background and death, being stuck in an impossibly difficult situation that he doesn't quite understand himself, and trying to deal with it like any kid his age would; while Yato who knows exactly what's going on was pretty much an ass to him - most of the time he behaved almost as childishly as Yukine, he never really told Yukine anything, he rarely ever offered any comfort, rarely (if ever) tried to reach out to him, etc.

And now suddenly Yukine is the one at fault? Because omg poor Yato was ~enduring~ in silence something that could've been avoided if he just listened to Hiyori and treated Yukine as the confused child he is? (If he's really hurting that bad and is on the verge of death that would've been the logical choice instead of letting things get out of hand.)

Yeah, sorry, but the end of this episode was BS. Too bad, because otherwise it was the best episode so far.

Spoiler for Manga comparison to Yukine's character:

That's why I think the anime shouldn't have made Yukine so sympathetic. In the manga he was unlikable since his first appearance and did many bad things which haven't been shown like stealing Hiyori's money and make a mess of her brother's room, stealing regularly, make Hiyori feel guilty for being alive in a nice family if she reprimanded him or demanding money from an old man who called Yato.

Of course, that doesn't mean Yato is a saint who isn't at fault and no one is trying to say that. Yato is at the verge of dying because he didn't stop Yukine.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Personally, even though it was risky, the decision Yato made was correct. That made an impression on Yukine & experiencing the consequences instead of being told of them makes for a lesson learned.

Or, you know, Yato could've reached out to Yukine and talked to him about the situation, to make it easier for both of them. Even if Yukine still snapped he would've had a better understanding of the situation.

Originally Posted by Bern-san

That's why I think the anime shouldn't have made Yukine so sympathetic. In the manga he was unlikable since his first appearance and did many bad things which haven't been shown like stealing Hiyori's money and make a mess of her brother's room, stealing regularly, make Hiyori feel guilty for being alive in a nice family if she reprimanded him or demanding money from an old man who called Yato.

Frankly that wouldn't have changed anything. Yukine is still just a kid and behaves like many kids would do in his situation. As I said above, Yato is his guardian, he's the one responsible for Yukine (and by extension his own well-being).

Really, my problem is not that Yato is a crappy guardian; his current relationship with Yukine is screwed up but it's fundamentally interesting. My problem is the episode suggesting that the one at fault is Yukine, and Yato is so awesome! because look he went so far just for Yukine's sake! Bah.

[Bern-san]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Or, you know, Yato could've reached out to Yukine and talked to him about the situation, to make it easier for both of them. Even if Yukine still snapped he would've had a better understanding of the situation.


Frankly that wouldn't have changed anything. Yukine is still just a kid and behaves like many kids would do in his situation. As I said above, Yato is his guardian, he's the one responsible for Yukine (and by extension his own well-being).

Really, my problem is not that Yato is a crappy guardian; his current relationship with Yukine is screwed up but it's fundamentally interesting. My problem is the episode suggesting that the one at fault is Yukine, and Yato is so awesome! because look he went so far just for Yukine's sake! Bah.

Like I said before, it's true that Yato should've stopped him and it's his responsibility to guide Yukine. No one is denying that, Hiyori herself admits in the episode that she's guilty of not doing anything.
But it's also true that Yato is being very generous with Yukine, even a shinki like Kazuma says that Yato should just get rid of Yukine.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Bern-san

Like I said before, it's true that Yato should've stopped him and it's his responsibility to guide Yukine. No one is denying that, Hiyori herself admits in the episode that she's guilty of not doing anything.

That's the other thing. There's no reason for Hiyori to feel guilty because she did everything she could given the information she had. She tried to help Yukine. She tried to reason with Yato. It's not her fault that she only knew as much as what Yato let on. Also, the problem is between Yato and Yukine and they're the ones who should settle it with each other. If anything Hiyori should be mad at Yato for failing at basic communication.

Originally Posted by Bern-san

But it's also true that Yato is being very generous with Yukine, even a shinki like Kazuma says that Yato should just get rid of Yukine.

He's generous but in a way that's nearly impossible to appreciate and it's no surprise that Yukine doesn't really appreciate it. Again, lack of communication: Yato is the one who knows everything yet he tells Yukine nothing, and yet expects Yukine to behave as if he understood everything.

[Flower]

Finally caught up on the last two eps - consistently good, solid work that always delivers.

Must admit that Kofuku facing down Bishamon was a big "woohoo!" moment for me. Was nice to see someone with similar clout telling Bishamon to back off, mind her own business and realize that getting her personal grudges involved with things will draw consequences.

It is a hard thing - one can empathize with Bishamon to be sure, but at the same time not approve of what she will do afterwards. But kudos to Bishimon for not just being an angry, vengeful bundle of resentment and being able to keep herself in check whether through advice by those close to her or more blunt communication from those not so close.

Also was interested to hear another name more "Nora" - it is Scarlet. She still seems the most interesting of all the side charas to me. Maybe even engmatic....

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Or, you know, Yato could've reached out to Yukine and talked to him about the situation, to make it easier for both of them. Even if Yukine still snapped he would've had a better understanding of the situation.

No, not really. At that age, being told about it never really works. Experiencing it firsthand is the best solution. Come on, everyone of us were all kids, you know just as much as I, that we all go through that phase.

"Don't do this" or "don't touch that" we're told. But we still do it or touch it anyway. When shit hits the fan, we finally realize why we weren't supposed to do or touch it. The same applies to Yukine. You're thinking about this with your current (mature or adult) mindset, but go back to your early teens, will you have looked at the situation the same way as you are now?

The current me knows the consequences by being told so, the 14 year old me, would've probably had to learn the hard way. Though, I wasn't as ignorant or stubborn as Yukine when I was that age. So my consequences may not be as severe.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

No, not really. At that age, being told about it never really works. Experiencing it firsthand is the best solution. Come on, everyone of us were all kids, you know just as much as I, that we all go through that phase.

"Don't do this" or "don't touch that" we're told. But we still do it or touch it anyway. When shit hits the fan, we finally realize why we weren't supposed to do or touch it. The same applies to Yukine. You're thinking about this with your current (mature or adult) mindset, but go back to your early teens, will you have looked at the situation the same way as you are now?

There's a huge difference between going into stuff completely blind or having at least a basic knowledge and understanding of it. There's also the question of Yato's responsibility.

Yukine doesn't know anything. He doesn't really understand his own situation. He deals with it as well as one can expect (ie. not well at all). And now he's being guilt-tripped into thinking that it's his fault if Yato dies - even if things may or may not have ended up like this if Yato actually tried to communicate with him, comfort him, etc. and tell him the important stuff he needs to know.

Yes, it makes for intense drama but when one thinks about it the drama is really stupid.

Again: my problem is not with the relationship between Yato and Yukine, that's interesting. It's how the current drama is being presented.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Thing is, the only one in the position to do anything about the problem is Yato. Yukine barely even knows what he is - Yato is the one who knows everything and knows which actions lead to what consequences. He knows that Yukine not getting "better" (for the lack of a better word) will kill him. And yet he did nothing, and let things get out of hand.

Oh I'm sure there will be some explanation that center on how Yato is actually awesome because he endured all that to keep Yukine around and "alive" (well, less undead), but likely that'll be BS as well and it won't excuse the whole "Yukine is the one at fault" thing we got at the end of the episode.

See edit.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

But from Hiyori's perspective, between hurting someone's feelings and directly causing someone to fall terminally ill, which one is worse?

Hiyori can't exactly say "serves you right" and leave Yato to die in that situation, can she? All she wanted to say was that Yukine is the direct cause behind Yato's condition, and she's right. It's an objective fact that Yukine is blighting Yato. There's no way around it.

Let's also not forget that pretty much every gag in the show already establishes how terrible of a person Yato is.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But what's the point of warning if Yukine doesn't understand what he means? He's about as convincing as a sleazebag uncle warning a young nephew not to do bad things while he's drunk and high and stealing someone's bike (give or take stuff as per individual taste ). He gave no reason whatsoever that would've made Yukine actually heed his warnings.

I agree, and that's why things got as bad as they are now. But that doesn't make Yukine free of responsibility just because he's a child.

Even if Yukine couldn't take Yato seriously, Hiyori also warned him not to steal, and she gave him a place to stay. I don't think it's Yato's fault that Yukine chose not to accept her kindness.

Also:

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Yukine is not blameless, no, but he's just a kid and Yato is in the position of an adult guardian. The one who should've known better is Yato.

The fact that you say this about Yato:

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

He's about as convincing as a sleazebag uncle warning a young nephew not to do bad things while he's drunk and high and stealing someone's bike (give or take stuff as per individual taste ).

Already explains why Yato couldn't talk things out with Yukine. He wouldn't be taken seriously, so there is no saving their relationship. Therefore, from Yato's perspective the only thing he can do is what he did to Manabu - give him the conditions to push him close to the edge, and leave it to him to endure an unfair world and come out stronger because of it, or to cross the line. Manabu chose to be the better person. Yukine did not.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

There's a huge difference between going into stuff completely blind or having at least a basic knowledge and understanding of it. There's also the question of Yato's responsibility.

Yukine doesn't know anything. He doesn't really understand his own situation. He deals with it as well as one can expect (ie. not well at all). And now he's being guilt-tripped into thinking that it's his fault if Yato dies - even if things may or may not have ended up like this if Yato actually tried to communicate with him, comfort him, etc. and tell him the important stuff he needs to know.

Yes, it makes for intense drama but when one thinks about it the drama is really stupid.

Again: my problem is not with the relationship between Yato and Yukine, that's interesting. It's how the current drama is being presented.

Well, this all boils down to differing views in this case. I see no problem with this situation, whereas you don't like how its presented.

Lets agree to disagree on this one. Its clear that we're going nowhere.

Spoiler for Went on a tangent:

Maybe it all comes down to our cultures/environments where we grew up? How I grew up, learning the hard way is quite common among the people of my country. Parents don't really have heart-to-heart conversations with their children.

For example, you know how "the talk" is some kind of rite of passage for Americans? (I know not everyone experiences this, I'm just generalizing here), in my country, "the talk" is something we don't have. Never heard it from my parents, I can tell you that.

Btw, I know you're not American, I was just drawing a reference to show you what I meant.

[Flower]

I am glad the discussions are on topic amd all, but lets not draw things out too much. Agreeing to disagree is a fine thing in my opinion.

As for the going off on a tangent musings, it might be better to take the discussion outside the thread for now. ^^

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Hiyori can't exactly say "serves you right" and leave Yato to die in that situation, can she? All she wanted to say was that Yukine is the direct cause behind Yato's condition, and she's right. It's an objective fact that Yukine is blighting Yato. There's no way around it.

Except it was framed as Yukine being blamed for Yato's condition which is incredibly unfair.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I agree, and that's why things got as bad as they are now. But that doesn't make Yukine free of responsibility just because he's a child.

His situation makes him vulnerable and powerless. He's no saint, he did bad things, but at the end of the day the responsibility lies with Yato. If Yato talked to him at all then yes, the responsibility would be more evenly distributed because Yukine would at least have some idea about why (other than basic ethical issues) it is wrong what he does and what he should do to make it better.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Even if Yukine couldn't take Yato seriously, Hiyori also warned him not to steal, and she gave him a place to stay. I don't think it's Yato's fault that Yukine chose not to accept her kindness.

Perhaps I'm biased because I've known so many children like Yukine, but he's just a kid and most kids really don't know better. To make it worse, Yukine is a problem child and not the type to even know how to deal with someone offering you the kind of help Hiyori does with Yukine.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Already explains why Yato couldn't talk things out with Yukine. He wouldn't be taken seriously, so there is no saving their relationship. Therefore, from Yato's perspective the only thing he can do is what he did to Manabu - give him the conditions to push him close to the edge, and leave it to him to endure an unfair world and come out stronger because of it, or to cross the line. Manabu chose to be the better person. Yukine did not.

The situation and point of life that Yukine and Manabu are in are not exactly similar, though, and if they're meant to be I'm not buying that either. We've been through that so many times. It's not simply about choosing to be a better person, it's also about your current situation and the baggage you're lugging around which influences your personality and decisions.

For the last time, I think the relationship between Yukine and Yato (and Hiyori, as much as she's involved) is pretty interesting, screwed up and full of issues and all. That's not my problem. My problem is how in the current drama the narrative seems to suggest that it's Yukine who should've known better, and it's Yukine who is objectively responsible for what's happening and Yato is heroically sacrificing himself for his sake. If Yukine just takes it lying down in the next episode, and if there's no hints of self-reflection on Yato's part, it'll really sour me on this story, which would be a pity.

[FlareKnight]

Will just say damn things got really messy at the end there. Though I certainly feel bad for the regular students who had their school's windows exploding on them for seemingly no reason. There's a start of a legendary ghost story.

Big risk taken by Hiyori by carrying Yato and taking Yukine along with her. Rough reception, though I suppose it's not that surprising.

Guess Yukine is just one of those characters that is going to need to go to the point of self-destruction in order to be saved.

Can't say I love the idea of having people sink or swim on their own like Yato was going with here. In one case it worked out alright since the kid realized how far he was really willing to go.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Except it was framed as Yukine being blamed for Yato's condition which is incredibly unfair.

No it's not.

Yukine asked Hiyori what happened, and that's exactly what she told him: Yato gets blighted everytime Yukine does something bad, and Yato chose to accept it instead of releasing Yukine.

Not one word of that was incorrect. The way you choose to take it is a different story.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

For the last time, I think the relationship between Yukine and Yato (and Hiyori, as much as she's involved) is pretty interesting, screwed up and full of issues and all. That's not my problem. My problem is how in the current drama the narrative seems to suggest that it's Yukine who should've known better, and it's Yukine who is objectively responsible for what's happening and Yato is heroically sacrificing himself for his sake. If Yukine just takes it lying down in the next episode, and if there's no hints of self-reflection on Yato's part, it'll really sour me on this story, which would be a pity.

Hiyori never once said Yukine should have known better. All she said after that was that she should have stopped him (presumably from stealing) like Yato did. The only person she blamed was herself.

[Flower]

Ahem?

I said drop it.

[mistress_kisara]

Ok Episode 8 just broke my heart into a million pieces.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Okay, I'm not buying this.

What we've seen so far was Yukine, someone with a clearly difficult background and death, being stuck in an impossibly difficult situation that he doesn't quite understand himself, and trying to deal with it like any kid his age would; while Yato who knows exactly what's going on was pretty much an ass to him - most of the time he behaved almost as childishly as Yukine, he never really told Yukine anything, he rarely ever offered any comfort, rarely (if ever) tried to reach out to him, etc.

And now suddenly Yukine is the one at fault? Because omg poor Yato was ~enduring~ in silence something that could've been avoided if he just listened to Hiyori and treated Yukine as the confused child he is? (If he's really hurting that bad and is on the verge of death that would've been the logical choice instead of letting things get out of hand.)

Yeah, sorry, but the end of this episode was BS. Too bad, because otherwise it was the best episode so far.

I think the show makes a point that Gods can do no sin

God don't get stung when they themselves commit a sin.
Nothing happens if he steals some beer from Hiyori's fridge.
Because sin does not apply to Gods
They only get stung if their regalia commit a sin.

It's Yukine's fault because he is regalia
No, it's not fair. But that's how it is.

And really, shop theft and vandalism is pretty bad

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I think the show makes a point that Gods can do no sin

God don't get stung when they themselves commit a sin.
Because sin does not apply to them.
They get stung if their regalia commit a sin.

It's his fault because he is regalia
No, it's not fair. But that's how it is.

And really, shop theft and vandalism is pretty bad

This whole system seems to be designed so as to keep gods in check. If they engaged in any wrongdoing, it'll undoubtedly involve their shinki and such activity would undoubtedly corrupt their shinki and bring the blight on their masters. Actually scratch that. This system keeps not just gods, but the shinki themselves in check.

Taking a step back, if it had been any other master who was not planning on "reforging sekki" what would've happened to Yukine? If his master was pissed then Yukine would've become a Nora just like that girl, accepted by no one and despised by everyone. Yukine knows the facts. He was told that every time he sins he brings the blight on Yato and Tenjin told him all about the name system and its penalties, but he seems to be blinded by his self-pity to see the larger picture painted by the facts. He crossed the line and then some. It's a miracle he hasn't become a stray.