[Manga] Chapter 255 Discussion

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by jianfish

I felt there was so much more potential to Bankai but I think they just glazed over it to Vizard/Arrancar. Prehaps they are running out of time to finish it, its hards to tie up every loose end.

Why would Ichigo use his Bankai when he can use his Vizard powers? Have you seen anyone defeat a Bankai with a Shikai before? Why would Ichi want to use his Bankai anymore?

Ichigo uses his vizard form to enhance his bankai, not as an alternative. When you see Ichigo fighting as a vizard he's usually already performed his bankai, I think the only time he's used it in shikai form is when he's training with Hiyori. It's basically a quick power-up to accomplish what would normally take years of training to achieve.

[Hisago]

Originally Posted by The Small One

This is wrong.
It was strongly implied, that Arrancar (and Vaizards) are things which occur "naturally", though very rarely... just look at Nell.

Oh, guess I was wrong.
Although, are we really sure that Aizen didn't make Nell?

[jianfish]

It would quite Imba for him(Zaraki) to get even Shikai.

Even Aizen needed to use shikai.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Hisago

Oh, guess I was wrong.
Although, are we really sure that Aizen didn't make Nell?

While it has never been said that Aizen had nothing to do with Nell, I doubt she would be running around free if he had, since even though she is a bug in terms of fighting she seems to be pretty gifted for a healer.

It's heavly implyed that Arrancar occur "naturally" since SS had a name for them and knew about them before they appeered. The Orb is not needed to make them, in fact we saw Grand Fisher start to under go the the prosess shortly after Ichigo defeated him, it just makes it much easyer.


Zaraki is a monster. I belive his power level is on par or perhaps stronger then fullpowered Ichigo's but it seems he has even less control of it then ichigo. From the Ichigo-Kenpatchi fight it is clear he can't even be hurt by anyone that isn't at least a high level VC. His fighting stance leaves him open for atacks meaning he is likely to take as much damgae as he dishes out in a fight with someone of his power level.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by jianfish

Don't you hate it that Bankai are now being so degraded, its not even worth using at all...

There is a reason for that . In Season 1 Bankai was ultimate power up for Ichigo . But just think about it if Bankai had the same effectivness in season 2 would'nt it be a whole lot boring ? And I am not talking about Ichigo alone . The fights would be lame and get over in like 2 pages coz the arrancars seen till now have not shown or some even dont have a second release .

If Ichigo is taken as the epitome for Bleach

Season 1 : Bankai

Season 2 : Controlling Inner Hollow

Actually its good bankai is downlplayed I agree Ichi uses Banakai quite to often is that not a hint Banakai is not the ultimate power up for Season 2

Originally Posted by Zoe

Kenpachi didn't even need a shikai.

Kenpachi is a freak using him as a comparision would be wrong . And in my books Kenapchi is a Jerk for not actually trying to get a shikai or Bankai . Consider the power up Kenpachi would get a Bankai

Also Tosen Vs Zaraki is a bad example ... To be honest if Tosen had not given the High n Mighty speech about ethics and righteousness had gone for Kill not even Overkill Zaraki would be mince meat now . He was really dazed and disoriented for the first few minutes .

[jianfish]

I still feel they ought to explore his Bankai more... Look at Byakuya(sp?)
How much of the Bankai did we see after all... They built it to a climax then it all suddenly falls through and gets replaced by Vizardness.

Imho being a Vizard is not as cool as using Bankai. Bankai is really awesome and individually different. Vizard/Arrancar is all about boosting speed/power/strength to infinite. No finess at all.

[Question]

What are you guys talking about? If you want to get technical, zaraki is in perma-shikai mode, just as Ichigo is in perma-shikai mode. They are morons who cant seal their zanpakutos.

The difference is that ichigo has a shikai level ABILITY (getsuga tenshou) while zaraki has nothing because hes denser than kouhei in Tsukuyomi and cant hear his zanpakuto at all.

Zaraki's "bankai" is his eyepatch apparently. Spiritual pressure is basically the basic power stone for everyone in bleach.......its like levels in a RPG. You can have the best special attacks at level 20 but a level 100 guy's normal attacks are going to do more than your special attacks. By taking off his eyepatch hes basically giving himself enough spiritual pressure to fight on the level of bankais. Spiritual pressure is everything in battle.......armor and damage. This is why Ichigo's bankai couldnt do crap to Aizen in soul society, he didnt have enough spiritual pressure to do enough damage to get past Aizen's "armor"(spiritual pressure), just like how at first he couldnt even scratch zaraki.

The nature of Ichigo's bankai basically requires him to have a really high spiritual pressure. Being fast is worthless if you cant even get past someone's spiritual pressure to wound him. Oh look you just stabbed him 500 times in 2 seconds and he has no scratches! Infact from everything ive seen its questionable whether Ichigo gets a spiritual pressure increase while in bankai or not.....

Its not really that Ichigo became weak after SS or that the captains are weaker than the arrancar.......its just that Ichigo fluked every major battle in soul society. Zangetsu in the zaraki fight was basically a deus ex machina, he hasnt managed to pull anything like that again, because he cant.......hes not zaraki, he cant just say "I take off my eyepatch" and get that kind of spiritual pressure, he needed a shove by zangetsu to do it. He had two deus ex machinas in the byakuya fight, the nature of his bankai vs the nature of byakuya's bankai, and his hollow form. A fully experienced Ichigo who can sustain his bankai longer than a few minutes and not holding back would beat byakuya in a normal fight......unless byakuaya used his bankai to form a 360 degree shield that Ichigo cant penetrate and just sit there......but that would be an incredibly lame fight scence.

What we are seeing in the arrancar arc is ichigo in "normal" mode without deus ex machinas, which is why hes getting trashed by grimmjow and the rest of the espadas. On the other hand zaraki/byakuya would probably put up a better fight than ichigo against them.

[Tsukino]

Perma-shikai? Since when? True that Ichigo can't seal his shikai, but he still originally released his shikai at one point by speaking with Zangetsu and finally finding his name. Kenpachi can't even hear a whisper from his zanpaktou.

Zaraki's blade is unique in design just as Ichigo's was unique before Byakuya made a butter knife out of it.

[kagato3]

Durring the fight with Ichigo Zaraki claimed that his sword was unsealed because like Ichigo his Spiritual pressure is so great that it can't be sealed (chapter 109). If he is correct then he is in perma-shikai mode just like Ichigo but because he and his sword are completely out of sync with each other Zaraki is weaker then he should be.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Question

What are you guys talking about? If you want to get technical, zaraki is in perma-shikai mode, just as Ichigo is in perma-shikai mode. They are morons who cant seal their zanpakutos.

Nope not really you have a confusion reagrding defintion of Shikai and Banaki .

Shikai First Release

Bankai Second release

The difference is that ichigo has a shikai level ABILITY (getsuga tenshou) while zaraki has nothing because hes denser than kouhei in Tsukuyomi and cant hear his zanpakuto at all.Zaraki's "bankai" is his eyepatch apparently. Spiritual pressure is basically the basic power stone for everyone in bleach.......its like levels in a RPG. You can have the best special attacks at level 20 but a level 100 guy's normal attacks are going to do more than your special attacks. By taking off his eyepatch hes basically giving himself enough spiritual pressure to fight on the level of bankais. Spiritual pressure is everything in battle.......armor and damage. This is why Ichigo's bankai couldnt do crap to Aizen in soul society, he didnt have enough spiritual pressure to do enough damage to get
past Aizen's "armor"(spiritual pressure), just like how at first he couldnt even scratch zaraki.

Ichigo has a resvoir of Reatsu is always in shikai mode or as Yoru puts its always released . Yoru also says Ichi acheived complete shikai against Zaraki i.e. In shikai you goto Zanapakuto (Zanagetsu) world . On Contrataire Banakai you force Zanapakuto to manifest into your world .

Thats the major reason Zaraki appears when Ichi is Fighting Hichigo as Ichi acheived shikai then . The Eye Patch is just a battle accesory to weaken Zaraki during a fight so he can fight on a lower level also the bells

The nature of Ichigo's bankai basically requires him to have a really high spiritual pressure. Being fast is worthless if you cant even get past someone's spiritual pressure to wound him. Oh look you just stabbed him 500 times in 2 seconds and he has no scratches! Infact from everything ive seen its questionable whether Ichigo gets a spiritual pressure increase while in bankai or not.....

Actually in case of everyone Banakai releases huge Reatsu . Controlling that reatsu is one of the cons of Banakai . Byakuya calls its Banakai Reatsu during Renji Vs Bya . Ichigo's banakai is compressing that Reatsu and using it as speed . Byakuya himself says it in ep 58 .. also note Ichigo Banakai reatsu cracking his bones led to his downfall till the appearance of Hichigo

Its not really that Ichigo became weak after SS or that the captains are weaker than the arrancar.......its just that Ichigo fluked every major battle in soul society. Zangetsu in the zaraki fight was basically a deus ex machina, he hasnt
managed to pull anything like that again, because he cant.......hes not zaraki, he cant just say "I take off my eyepatch" and get that kind of spiritual pressure, he needed a shove by zangetsu to do it. He had two deus ex machinas in the byakuya fight, the nature of his bankai vs the nature of byakuya's bankai, and his hollow form. A fully experienced Ichigo who can sustain his bankai longer than a few minutes and not holding back would beat byakuya in a normal fight......unless byakuaya used his bankai to form a 360 degree shield that Ichigo cant penetrate and just sit there......but that would be an incredibly lame fight scence.

What we are seeing in the arrancar arc is ichigo in "normal" mode without deus ex machinas, which is why hes getting trashed by grimmjow and the rest of the espadas. On the other hand zaraki/byakuya would probably put up a better fight than ichigo against them.

Arrancars and Vizards are fundamentally stronger than Shinigami . And yes Ichi is weaker after SS arc why ??? . He has to deal with controlling that hollow otherwise he would have pawned Yammi .

His reatsu is fluctating to a high and low according to Ulqi due to apperances by clone hollow trying to take over . The Shinigami Hollow balance of a Vizzard is not stabilized as Ichi cant control the hollow and its trying to take over .

Before The Vizard Training Ichi was the Horse Clone Hollow the King of Zangetsu world

[wiggy13]

Hello !
I agreed with Question. Kenpachi and ichi has always in a first release mode.

[jianfish]

I wan to see Kenpachi in Bankai or prehaps Vizard mode.
Prolly can end the story there.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by wiggy13

Hello !
I agreed with Question. Kenpachi and ichi has always in a first release mode.

Refer chapter 109 pg 15 and pg 16

[striderm]

Now Ichigo could've floored Yammi the first time he met him if Ulqi didn't step in.

Except in the end that's hard to say adding the use of releasing Yammi's zanpakuto

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Refer chapter 109 pg 15 and pg 16

you missed the conversation on page 17.

Originally Posted by kenpachi

The reason why there's no seal is because my spiritual pressure is so strong that even the strongest seal won't do any good. so when I fight, I just hold back how hard i swing.

this is exactly what Ichigo's deal is and I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that he is in Perma-shikai mode. So if Kenpachi is correct, and we have no reason to belive he is mistaken since he has been looking for ways to limit his power, he too is in Perma-shikai mode but is unable to use it ablities since he is completely out of sync with it so has no ideas what it can do.

[Zu Ra]

True Ichigo would have pawned Yammi if his inner hollow had not interupted him and distracted him .

Originally Posted by kagato3

you missed the conversation on page 17.

Yup thanx =] intially I was not even going to answer that query regarding Ken's shikai

[striderm]

Spoiler for 256:

I like the ex-Espada girl's design, especially her released form, "Golondrina". She talks too much but I like her. Also I'm glad at least Renji's being shown in this too.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Kenpachi has NO Shikai!

Everyone who thinks different hasn't understand the most basic rules of the Bleach world: To get a Shikai the Shinigami has to know the name of his sword; its a fact. There is no different way to get it.
And Kenpachi stated different times, that he doesn't know the name of his sword.
You just have to put two and two together to see that he can't be the same way, Ichigo is.

Well Said =]

Spoiler for 256:

Originally Posted by striderm

I like the ex-Espada girl's design, especially her released form, "Golondrina". She talks too much but I like her. Also I'm glad at least Renji's being shown in this too.

The Renji part was hilarious also we know who the lurking shadow is . We will see if tha battle ensues in a diff way than Ichigos and well unlike Nell he is not a burden

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Kenpachi has NO Shikai!

Everyone who thinks different hasn't understand the most basic rules of the Bleach world: To get a Shikai the Shinigami has to know the name of his sword; its a fact. There is no different way to get it.
And Kenpachi stated different times, that he doesn't know the name of his sword.
You just have to put two and two together to see that he can't be the same way, Ichigo is.

The problem is the Kenpachi flat out states that his sword is not sealed and that it is in its true form, which means that it should be in it's released mode. So ethier he is wrong, or we don't know everything about gaining Shikai. While it belived that knowing the name of your soul slayer is required to gain shikai, all we know for sure is that it is requiered to release it form it's sealed form. For all we know all personal soul slayers show up in their released form and then seal themselves untill the user is able to unseal them.

[Ichy]

Originally Posted by kagato3

The problem is the Kenpachi flat out states that his sword is not sealed and that it is in its true form, which means that it should be in it's released mode. So ethier he is wrong, or we don't know everything about gaining Shikai. While it belived that knowing the name of your soul slayer is required to gain shikai, all we know for sure is that it is requiered to release it form it's sealed form. For all we know all personal soul slayers show up in their released form and then seal themselves untill the user is able to unseal them.

Hasn't he said that he has no realeased Form to begin with?
Or was it that he has no sealed Form?